November 1, 2010 6:50 am at 6:50 am #592858LudwigvanquixoteMember
There is a meme starting in the far right about Jews voting against their interests by not voting Republican – about how “our much vaunted intelligence” is in question. Very shortly, of course, this will be followed by claiming that we are traitors. Fascist types – and the far right wingnuts certainly are – always latch onto that meme.
So please let me address this right out. The reason we don’t go for fascism is simple. One part is the faith itself and the other is our history.
The planks of the far right are evil as per Jewish law.
Let me please be clear, I don’t mean evil as an hyperbole or an emotional debating tact. I don’t mean that I personally think it is evil (though I do think so). When I write evil here, I mean that our Tradition, which has 3,000 years of discussing such things in minute detail, is very clear on what evil constitutes, and our Law, ethics and philosophy clearly, stridently and obviously calls many of the GOP planks, and many of their actions, evil.
Let’s look at Isaiah, chapter one. He, as always, speaks quite eloquently. (I am using the Stone, Artscroll translation here i.e. a translation written by observant Jews for Jews).
“Wash yourselves purify yourselves, remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes. Learn to do good, seek justice, vindicate the victim, render justice to the orphan, take up the grievance of the widow.”
We see part of this discussion quite clearly here. God is really angry at those doing evil, and says to do good instead. He then defines some good things to do, that were not being done, which had rendered people evil.
Specifically, He points out being just and compassionate and sticking up for the victim, the widow and the orphan (the weakest members of society). Torah teaches directly, in its own verse, that the poor will always be amongst us so we have the opportunity to do right by them. The GOP teaches that they are lazy, whine too much, and should not be noticed.
This is made even more compelling because immediately before, is a harsh discussion about how public displays of piety are odious to God, when the supposedly “pious” do not judge honestly, stick up for the victim, the widow and the orphan.
Just to drive the point home, Isaiah immediately continues:
How the faithful city has become a harlot!… Your princes are rebellious and associates of thieves; each of them loves bribery and pursues payments. They do not render justice to the orphan, take up the grievance of the widow.
Some rhetorical questions:
Do we know any “ohh so holy” GOP types who bang bibles all day, but in the end put corporate needs ahead of everyday people, or sleep with anything that moves, or more importantly, support things like sweatshop and child labor in third world countries? Do we know any GOP types who would happily prop up dictators who savage and abuse their people, so that we can have things like cheap oil and sugar or chocolate? What does the GOP tie to the oil patch and the Saudis have to do with this? Do we know any GOP types who have a “I’ll take mine, screw you!” attitude towards helping others? What about Wallmart? Shall we discuss Haliburton or BP? How much money flows from these types into GOP coffers and to Fox? When someone like Senator Barton apologizes to BP, for having to take some responsibility for desecrating the Gulf, isn’t it obvious our “princes” pursue payments, do not render justice to the victim and are associates of thieves?
Do we know any “ohh so holy” types like Beck, Rush, Malkin and Coulter (to name a few) who argue that calls for social justice are evil communism and rail about it even from churches and synagogues?”
Isaiah and all of Torah are pretty clear about striving for social justice. This is simply not optional. “Justice, justice shall you seek.”
The written Torah itself, is clear about:
Do not put a stumbling block before the blind.
This means don’t convince people to do things that will hurt them. Do we know any GOP types who fought against things like tobacco regulation, or worker safety regulations, or EPA standards or AGW action? Do we know any GOP types that knowingly lie about such things being safe when they aren’t? What about GOP dirty election tricks like fake fliers in Black and Hispanic neighborhoods telling them to vote on the wrong day, or not at all?
That brings me to another point.
An unforgivable sin is doing evil in Hashem’s name – like claiming that He doesn’t want you striving for social justice while cloaking yourself as His representative. Preachers who bilk their flocks, or sell gold taken from conflict regions in the third world are examples. Calling to murder or abuse innocent people in His name, is a strong example. Priests who rape boys, jihadis and preachers who call for wiping out all Muslims are horrifying examples in the news today. More on that point later, it is a recurring theme that religious hypocrites should be especially worried about – or would be, if they actually believed in the God of Jacob.
You can argue with me all you want about what is evil or not. Torah is quite clear on the matter though. Even secular Jews still go by these definitions.
There is a tosefta, that asks the following question. Why did God only create one Adam when he could have peopled the world at creation?
So that all men would know they are brothers and that no man could claim he was descended from a more distinguished Adam than another.
Obviously, racism is evil, and the Jews, having been terrible victims of it, need no scriptural or rabbinic injunction against it, to know it is evil. Obviously, the GOP plays the race card in terrible ways, breeding and stoking endless fear that angry black Muslim communists and Hispanics are going to murder whites in their sleep, impose socialism and destroy Christianity.
Pirkei Avot, 2:11
11. Rabbi Joshua would say: An evil eye, the evil inclination, and the hatred of one’s fellows, drive a person from the world.
There is that word evil again.
Any message of blind hatred is both untrue and pure evil. Baseless hatred has its own injunction in the Tradition as well. We are taught that we lost the Second Temple for that sin. Of course, malicious lying about others is its own sin as well. That is the worst sort of Loshan Ha Ra. But, I want to point to the second part of that tosefta about there being only one Adam.
So no man could claim he was descended from a more distinguished Adam than another.
The So-con wing of the GOP have replaced in Texas schools, Thomas Jefferson with John Calvin. They spread a Dominionist philosophy in general that claims God loves some more than others. It is not that all men are equal, but some are destined from birth to be loved by God and the others damned.
This is anathema to Judaism. All good people go to heaven, Jewish or not. All good people get there by doing good deeds. All people matter. Consider the following from Rabbi Akiva.
Pirkei Avot, 3:15-16
15. All is foreseen, and freedom of choice is granted. The world is judged with goodness, but in accordance with the amount of man’s positive deeds.
16. He would also say: Everything is placed in pledge, and a net is spread over all the living. The store is open, the storekeeper extends credit, the account-book lies open, the hand writes, and all who wish to borrow may come and borrow. The collection-officers make their rounds every day and exact payment from man, with his knowledge and without his knowledge. Their case is well founded, the judgement is a judgement of truth, and ultimately, all is prepared for the feast.
Consider this from Ben Zoma.
Pirkei Avot, 4:3
3. He would also say: Do not scorn any man, and do not discount any thing. For there is no man who has not his hour, and no thing that has not its place.
I should say some more on the GOP/fundie Christian convergence. Any Christian who “loves” us so much that he thinks we should abandon our faith, history, and culture, and cease to be Jews – or burn in hell, is not our friend. We’ve seen what happens when those types run governments before, and it never, ever turned out well for us.
What of GOP saber rattling and hawkishness?
Hillel from Pirkei Avot, 2:6
6. He also saw a skull floating upon the water. Said he to it: Because you drowned others, you were drowned; and those who drowned you, will themselves be drowned.
What of the GOP’s anti-intellectual bent and hatred of learning? Do I really need to explain that Jews as a culture, love, value, and cherish education? Does anyone really think there are many Jews who do not wince when someone like Palin or Inhofe or O’Donnell speaks? Our culture despises ignorance. But what we despise more, is the sort of arrogance that is proud of being both ignorant and stupid. That is the GOP to a T.
Pirkei Avot, 3:1
1. Ben Zoma would say: Who is wise? One who learns from every man. As is stated (Psalms 119:99): “From all my teachers I have grown wise, for Your testimonials are my meditation.”
Who is strong? One who overpowers his inclinations. As is stated (Proverbs 16:32), “Better one who is slow to anger than one with might, one who rules his spirit than the captor of a city.”
Who is rich? One who is satisfied with his lot. As is stated (Psalms 128:2): “If you eat of toil of your hands, fortunate are you, and good is to you”; “fortunate are you” in this world, “and good is to you” in the World to Come.
Who is honorable? One who honors his fellows. As is stated (I Samuel 2:30): “For to those who honor me, I accord honor; those who scorn me shall be demeaned.”
In fact, learning and study are at the heart of Judaism.
Pirkei Avot, 4:12
12. Rabbi Eliezer the son of Shamua would say: The dignity of your student should be as precious to you as your own; the dignity of your colleague, as your awe of your master; and your awe of your master as your awe of Heaven.
How do you think most Jews feel about repeated GOP attempts to gut public education and force dogmatic Christianity into public schools? How well do you think open hatred of the educated sits with us?
What of the environment and the GOP notion that raping it is just fine? From the very opening of the Torah, man is seen as a gardener and a partner in creation, whose goal is the perfection of the physical world. We are taught that our purpose temporally is Tikun Olam. Spiritually, we are to learn Torah, so that we can do the things that Tikun Olam (the repair of the world) requires. This does not just mean bringing moshiach. It means making just communities, elevating the physical to the spiritual and not destroying creation. Making the world uninhabitable through pollution and AGW is directly against the very notion of what we are supposed to be created for.
What of the GOP anti-government theme?
Pirkei Avot, 3:2
2. Rabbi Chanina, deputy to the kohanim, would say: Pray for the integrity of the government; for were it not for the fear of its authority, a man would swallow his neighbor alive.
Did you ever notice that all that GOP talk of deregulation and shrinking the government, frequently means that corporate interests get to eat common people alive? Shall we ask about Enron, the SNL crisis, apologizing to BP for having to pay damages for the oil spill, or resistance to Wall Street reform? Why would any sane person fight for insurance companies to be able take more money out of the healthcare system? Why would anyone fight for credit card companies to be able to arbitrarily raise rates and create hidden fees? Why would anyone create loopholes to EPA protocols to allow more arsenic and strontium in the water as in the Orwellian named Clean Air act of 2005 and the Halliburton loopholes? What of all that third world labor?
To really sum up how Judasim would come down on the “greed is good,” blind hating, self-serving, malicious lying, hawkish, aggressive, ignorant GOP, who “love” us so much, they want to perfect us, but not more than Arab oil, Rabbi Yochanan said it wonderfully.
Pirkei Avot, 2:10
10. [Rabbi Yochanan] said to them: Go and see which is the best trait for a person to acquire. Said Rabbi Eliezer: A good eye. Said Rabbi Joshua: A good friend. Said Rabbi Yossei: A good neighbor. Said Rabbi Shimon: To see what is born [out of ones actions]. Said Rabbi Elazar: A good heart. Said He to them: I prefer the words of Elazar the son of Arach to yours, for his words include all of yours.
He said to them: Go and see which is the worst trait, the one that a person should most distance himself from. Said Rabbi Eliezer: An evil eye. Said Rabbi Joshua: An evil friend. Said Rabbi Yossei: An evil neighbor. Said Rabbi Shimon: To borrow and not to repay; for one who borrows from man is as one who borrows from the Almighty, as is stated,
The wicked man borrows and does not repay; but the righteous one is benevolent and gives” (Psalms 37:21). Said Rabbi Elazar: An evil heart. Said He to them: I prefer the word of Elazar the son of Arach to yours, for his words include all of yours.
But I would be remiss if I did not quote something that summed it further:
Pirkei Avot, 2:1
1. Rabbi [Judah HaNassi] would say: Which is the right path for man to choose for himself? Whatever is harmonious for the one who does it, and harmonious for mankind.
The bottom line is that as per Jewish Law, the GOP planks are evil. I mean RA. I did not make the definitions either. If you don’t like what the Torah says, take it up with the author.
That, and the fact that most Jews are educated people, who aren’t heartless rashot who like the idea of screwing others over, is why we don’t vote Republican.
It is not that the Dems are so very great. In fact they are weak divided and lukewarm in their support of Israel. It is foolish though to think that the GOP loves us more. It is to my mind that the Dems are tsdikkim, each and every one compared to the GOP.November 1, 2010 12:26 pm at 12:26 pm #705547Ben TorahParticipant
As long as you don’t vote for the party that defines itself as being for Abortionists, Toieva, and general immorality, no questions here.November 1, 2010 12:45 pm at 12:45 pm #705548
Wow…I hope you get passed the rolling stone edition and pirkey avos. While I’m not a big of chasid of the tea party and think a lot of them are loons, and do not agree with them on many things ( if not most) your basic & selective quoting ignores and twists many fundamental Jewish concepts. Judaism is not liberal socialism. Twisted my friend. On many points, you have made vast assumptions (basically, since it’s obvious the liberals are right, therefore, of course the Torah agrees with them, because it’s right as well).
I could quote chazal about homosexuality, quote chazal about earning a living, quote chazal about not relying on one’s government, and wonder where exactly chazal spoke about the enviroment, and perhaps quote chazal’s approach to warfare, I quote chazal about modesty, I could quote chazal about promiscuity…or about the fact that God actually does love some people more then others…or about what chazal teach us about various races…
but since you’re not going to find that in your stone edition, we’ll just leave it out, eh?
But you could take that up with the Author. And my striemel.
How do you know Moshe Rabbenu wore a striemel?
Well, it says he went up to Har Sinia!
But it doesn’t say he wore a striemel!
Nu! Do you think he would have gone without his Striemel?
It’s cute, though. Even clever.
Ben torah – I think , I actually agree with you. L’Chaim!
Hail Beethoven the hardworking preelection democratic staffer!
Even the most diehard Jewish dem wouldn’t call the dems tzaddikim.
I’m actually serious. This sounds too canned to come from anyone else. And only a staffer would speak in the first person – you know, to be one of us. I betcha he’s got a shtickel torah for the christian sites as well.
Yes, I’m calling you a sock puppet. If I’m wrong, please tell us…something that tells us that you’re not! Tell me, who is the acknowledged Gadol HaDor today – other then R’ Yehudah Levin?
Are you even Jewish?
Do you guys need help? I can write you shtickel torahs; I charge hourly.
Anyone else agree?November 1, 2010 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #705550tzippiMember
One can make the same argument re voting for Democrats.
Simple solution: don’t vote straight, vote for non Tea Partiers. They’re out there. A good deal of right wing radio and commentors aren’t exactly enamored of this movement either.November 1, 2010 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #705551mddMember
Ludwigvanquixote, it is better to vote for those who support homosexuality, abortions, promiscuity? Some of who are arrogant atheists and condone adultery?
Charity is good, but supporting for life people who do not want to work is not. And our tradition does not forbid child labor and sweat shops.
In short, look at all the parts of the Torah.November 1, 2010 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #705552mddMember
Saber rattling? According to the Democrats let others attack and America and Israel surrender. Not the da’as of of the Torah.November 1, 2010 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #705553
Number 1: I see anger in Barack Obama, I see anger in those at Washington rallies holding posters of Eric Cantor (the only [orthodox] Jewish Republican in Congress) and I see anger in your post. I see frustration in the Tea Party.
Number 2: I can bring you much more places in the Torah and the Talmud where they encourage charity. Read – charity, not taxation and spreading of the wealth. The last time I checked, the Republican candidates have given more charity than their Democratic counterparts. The Torah says we shall give charity as a Nedavah, out of concern for the needy – not by force. Chazal clearly state an equal 10% tax and as I’ve stated in a previous post, according to most Rishonim, we are even exempt from paying taxes here in the states according to Dina DMalchusa Dina because of its form.November 1, 2010 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #705554
My previous post was supposed to say: Holding signs of Eric Cantor looking like a Nazi.November 1, 2010 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #705555
Number 3: Not to mention that most of the Tea Partiers are people that have a hard time paying their mortgages and bills and live off a day-to-day budget. If you are talking about the the needy, they are Tea Partiers. They don’t want career politicians making a living off them. If you like that way of living, speak to someone that survived Russian communism.November 1, 2010 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #705556
Blah Blah Blah politics. Blah Blah Blah republicans. Blah Blah Blah Democrats. Blah Blah Blah abortion. Blah Blah Blah gay marriage. Blah Blah Blah Israel. Blah Blah Blah taxes. Blah Blah Blah money for yeshivos. Blah Blah Blah tzedaka.
There; I said everything. Now everyone can go vote for who they believe in ideologically, and we will all pretend we are being frum by doing so.November 1, 2010 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #705558artchillParticipant
Vote for Democrats. After all the United State’s Communist Party strongly endorse all the candidates on the Democratic slate.
As Orthodox Jews, we thank Hashem three times a day, Shelo Sam Chelkainu Kahem. You want to join them, that’s your choice!November 1, 2010 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #705559LudwigvanquixoteMember
That is an excellent post.November 1, 2010 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #705560
Regarding toeiva: The Republican nominee for Governor of Florida, Rick Scott, was the CEO of a company that scammed $1.7 billion from Medicare. The Torah calls business fraud a toeiva but I have not seen a single Republican politician object to Scott.November 1, 2010 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #705561
i don’t understand, do you want to be taken care of, or to be helped to get a job,
i know what the gemara in Shabbos (63a) though
“it’s better to give a loan than to give tzedakah” and rashi says the reason is b/c the person won’t feel embarrased (b/c people don’t want handouts)November 1, 2010 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #705562justsmile613Participant
FRUM MORALS= REPUBLICAN . ANTI FRUM=DEMOCRAT.Period.November 1, 2010 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #705563dontcallmewaveMember
Ludwigvanquixote: Simpley put, the reason we vote republican is because the alternative is even worseNovember 1, 2010 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #705564gavra_at_workParticipant
Where does the “rent is too **** high” party fit?November 1, 2010 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #705565Lomed Mkol AdamMember
Ludwig: you do have valid points, however your attempt to portray the Democrats and their platform as tzaddikim is obviously far from the truth as other posters have pointed out.
The Torah hashkafa carries a mix of ideals from the Right and the Left. I think if we are going to try to align ourselves with any Non Jewish political ideology, then we do best with identifying with the Centrists or Independents. As you quoted from pirkei avot: Rabbi [Judah HaNassi] would say: Which is the right path for man to choose for himself? Whatever is harmonious for the one who does it, and harmonious for mankind. I think the Centrists platform fits that quote best.November 1, 2010 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #705566
Gavra – I think they have one in Sanhedria Murchevet.
Ludwig – are you Jewish? Simple question. Until you can answer that question, please don’t interpret our Torah for us. We’ve been doing it for a while. I wouldn’t interpret Matthew & Luke for you.
It is insulting.
And I didn’t say if I agreed with the tea party or not ( I don’t. I think Palin should be put in a sideshow).
I said you are a troll. That’s my main ideological point. It’s dishonest for a Christian to come here and try to interpret our tradition for us. I’m fine with discussing morals with you, but not my tradition. That’s for us.
You are engaging in “stealth campaigning” presumably bankrolled by some 527 group. Wait. We don’t need those anymore. You are being dishonest. What does Jewish Law say about that? Or Christian law?
You aren’t being very Christian. Tsk tsk.
Please, no more hyperbole. Just answer my question.
Chevra, maybe let’s hold off the lomdus till ludwig clarifies who he is. I believe he is a troll. Google his screenname, if you’d like to find out more. Err Iz Nit Fun Unzer.November 1, 2010 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #705567
Google his screenname, if you’d like to find out more.
i did, nothing came up except ludwig van beethoven and don quixote in the same article,
maybe he’s both deaf and dillusionalNovember 1, 2010 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #705568akupermaParticipant
The “tea party” platform is that the government should live within its means, and promote prosperity by cutting taxes and enabling the private sector to grow. What’s the problem?
Arguably, the frum community should support the Democrats in return for their generosity (albeit not with their own money) when we schnorr for handouts. However if we are going to stay in the US for a while, we would be better off with a stable government and a growing economy – which is why we should support the “tea party”.November 1, 2010 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #705570
I really do wonder if Ludwigvanquixote
is the same poster as charliehall. An investigation should be undertaken. First of all, fascism is a Statist political system that is characterized by totalitarianism. According to the economists Ludwig Von Mises and F.A. Hayek, fascistic regimes seek a collusion between big government and big business, with the result that in Fascist Italy, businessmen had a degree of control over state policy, and the state had a degree of control over the economy. Using this mechanism, fascists were able to fix prices, determine the level of wages, and put up barriers to entry in important markets (so as to give their business allies the power to form monopolies). High tariffs were placed on imports for the protection of the Big Brother State. These policies exercised state control over the means of production. This is just like how FDR (Y”S) and his wife believed that the Great Depression required big government policies and “benevolnet dictatorship.” Fascism is NOT Free Market Fiscal Restraint and Little Government. It is Statism and the unholy alliance between big government and big business; the Libertarian Movement and the Tea Party advocate AGAINST Big Government and Big Business, while Obama’s policies are the epitome of what can be considered Fascistic/Statist- TARP, a $787 Billion Stimulus Bill aimed at protecting Obama’s cronies- members of his green energy cabal, including the big business corporations General Electric (which owns NBC and the leftist MSNBC, which constantly attacks Republicans, with the lesbian Maddow and Keith Olbermann), Duke Energy, NextEra Energy, Exelon, and Honeywell. GE continually receives taxpayer dollars for its various programs, as a recipient of the liberal bailout and stimulus spending.
The Tea Party opposes welfare to big business, just as it opposes the Big State and the Welfare State. They want fiscal responsibility and the federal government to stay out of spcial welfare programs.
Your quotes on caring for the orphans and widows is a cliche, and shows a Torah comprehension no greater than that of Obama, who erroneously believes that the pasuk on Kayin and Hevel (Am I my brother’s keeper?) refers to supporting the social welfare state.
Judaism demands that we care for each other on a human-human level in the mitzvah of tzedakah and maaser, not by supporting a welfare state where we lose our income to government taxation.
The Rambam states that the highest form of tzedakah is when you give a person the tools to be self-sufficient. That is the hallmark of an economy which promotes entrepreneurship and small businesses, the type of society the Tea Party wants. This is in line with the old adage that if you give a man a fish you feed him for a day, but if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime. Otherwise, you keep people in a state of servitude to the state, in which they are not self-sufficient, but rely on the state for their survival.
To quote Yoel Bainerman, “The Torah never denies man a basic human condition- such as the desire to work, prosper, and provide the highest standard of living possible for their family. The Jewish sages recognized that denying private property and the substitution of it with centralized planned economies for the decision process of the market- leads ultimately to immorality and injustice. So the Jewish view in this matter cannot be regarded as synonymous with socialism or economic polices which deny private property.”
Jewish law views the giving of interest-free loans as an act of charity to break the poverty cycle, to prevent descent into poverty. Although giving of an interest free loan as an obligatory requirement rather than an act of voluntary philanthropy- this in no way implies a waiver of rights of the creditor to receive payment of his loan or absolve the debtor from his obligations. Even if the lender is wealthy and the borrower poor the debtor has to meet his obligations- even at the cost of losing all his property. To do otherwise would saddle the lender with all the social an economic problems of the borrower. The requirement to repay the loan is based on the concept that people have obligations as well as rights- a consideration often blurred in modern welfare economics.
There is also no philosophical basis in Judaism for taxation being used as a means of redistributing income. Nor can taxation be confiscatory of wealth, arbitrary or discriminatory. In Judaism, taxation is a manifestation of the concept of the rights of the community and of less fortunate individuals in the property of all other individuals. It is a moral and ethical imperative- not as a punishment on the wealthy for being successful in their economic endeavors, which is how the left views the creation of capital.
Is this all evil to you?
Is the Jewish understanding of economics evil to you, chas ve shalom? Is R’ Dovid Cohen, a highly respected posek, evil to you, chas ve shalom, because he argues that there is an anti-tax basis in halacha?
I may think you are misguided, but not evil. But you have made it clear that you believe that 21% of Jewish Americans are evil, because they are Republicans (most of these voters are frum).
Do you also know what vile, disgusting, nivul peh it is to call a Republican a t*bag?
Becaause this poster seems to copy verbatim from Soncino-style translations of the Gemara, I strongly believe that this ludwig fellow can be a fraud from Anthony Weiner’s campaign or from any other host of liberal politicians up for a vote tomorrow. He is a liar and an ignoramus who should study some economics and learn some Gemara and Halacha. His hashkafos are way off.
Do you think that the Anti-Israel Democrats are tzaddikim? Baalei mishkav zachor, anti-semites like Jesse Jackson and Hillary RodHam Clinton (remember, Ham is NOT Kosher), Black Panthers I(who did engage in voter intimidation, complete with baseball bats in 2008), Bill Ayres, Convicted terrorists, militants, radical leftists, Weatherman Underground, etc., are all Tzaddikim to you? You have a perverted and Korach-style way of looking at the world.
Juat because someone puts on a uniform for historical pruposes does not make them adherents to an ideology. I participated in reenactments for money one summer, and had to wear a Red Coat. Does that make me an adherent to the ideology of King George III? Now, I believe John Iott was foolish for doing so as someone in politics, but that is another story.
I truly think you ought to be investigated- you are either a goy, a gentile intruder, or a secular non-Jewish Jew, perhaps an adherent to the false ideologies of the Reform, Conservative, or Weissian schools of thought.November 1, 2010 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #705571
I believe that morality in the marketplace is the Jewish way. If a Jew is in business, he is obligated to follow the Torah’s moral standards, and in a free market system, it is these individuals who would be able to conduct business according to our values and who would truly benefit.November 1, 2010 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #705572
Ludwig, in a word, busted. Nice try though.November 1, 2010 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #705573
Ludwigvanquixote, I may have been dreaming but a picture is worth more than a thousand words.
Spinning the Torah into your radical agenda: do you have any answers to those that didn’t spin? The Rishonim (Rosh, Rashba, Rambam, Ritva and Shita) mentioned here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/jews-ought-to-vote-republican-the-torah-supports-conservatism ???
Bribery: Do you know those that lobbied for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? Did you ever bump into Charlie Rangel?
Equal: Yes! All people should have equal rights! No Reparations! No Progressive Taxing!
And… Did you ever hear of the term ‘Am Hanivchar’?
Race Card: Who demonized the GOP women running in this election. Who played the Sex Card against them?
Evil Eye: Yes. Those that have an evil eye to those that are more successful (aka Democrats).
All People To Heaven: Did you learn the Mishne (in Sanhedrin) that precedes the saying of Pirkei Avos: Kol Yisroel Yesh Lahem Chelek…
…freedom of choice is granted: Couldn’t spin this one, huh???
…account-book lies open, the hand writes, and all who wish to borrow may come and borrow: Why didn’t you spin this into the Frank-Dodd-Clinton Law that led to the Housing Crises?
…scorn any man, and do not discount any thing. For there is no man who has not his hour, and no thing that has not its place: Ma Inyan Shmitta Etzel Har Sinai???
He also saw a skull floating upon the water. Said he to it: Because you drowned others, you were drowned; and those who drowned you, will themselves be drowned. Doesn’t this remind you of the 2000’s when the Dems worked against Bush on every measure, from ‘stealing the votes from Gore’ to the Iraq War on to the Bush’s car into the ditch? Now is payback time!
If you eat of toil of your hands, fortunate are you, and good is to you: Did you read this before to copied & pasted? How does this fit with Socialism?
GOP attempts to gut public education: I would feel good. This would be the choice you mentioned before but omitted your spin…
This does not just mean bringing moshiach… I would just name you an Apikores! Pollution? How about… V’Haaretz Nasan Livnei Adam… it is for our dispense. Hashem can take care of the rest.
Pray for the integrity of the government; for were it not for the fear of its authority, a man would swallow his neighbor alive: Does that mean Social Medicine, Government Motors etc.? How does Free Enterprise and Capitalism make a man swallow his neighbor? Well, in communist Russia they did just that. We might need the Government for Police dept., Law and Order and Military, all which the Democrats defund and GOP pushes…
Deregulation means taking away the government that caused the cheats of all those things you mentioned. Additionally, half of the sponsors to these bills (e.g. Sarbanes-“Oxley” Act).
righteous one is benevolent and gives: If one is forced to give charity how do we get to choose being an evil heart? If charity is by choice (as the Torah suggests) you can choose. The Mishne says you shall choose good and be benevolent (note: not forced) and give.
Which is the right path for man to choose for himself? Whatever is harmonious for the one who does it, and harmonious for mankind: I see those that give charity while protecting others as harmonious to mankind while protecting his fortune as harmonious to himself.
divided and lukewarm in their support of Israel: It isn’t lukewarm support, it is strongly against!
It is to my mind that the Dems are tsdikkim, each and every one compared to the GOP: Hey! not one Republican signed this letter (http://middleeast.about.com/od/usmideastpolicy/qt/congressional-letter-gaza-siege.htm) 54 Dems did!
And do you include: Cynthia Ann McKinney, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakhan, Jeremiah Wright, Charles Barron and many others that find/found an enclave within the Democratic Party?
Torah does not equal liberal socialism: The Torah DOES! The Torah is an higher authority that understands that socialism isn’t equal! Shame on you for such words!
Tebags: Mentioning this word tells me how extreme you are and how far you take YOUR views!
ignoring the strident calls of the Torah: Did you see the post entailing on what justice means according to OUR Torah. And our Torah needs commentaries. I stated everything before and here it is again: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/jews-ought-to-vote-republican-the-torah-supports-conservatism
As to support of homosexuality. I have yet to see on Democrat run on a “be gay that’s a great idea” platform: I haven’t seen one that isn’t. Isn’t Barney Frank enough for you?
And while you are correct in having some Tea Partyers mentioning Nazi’s or sayings, it is because they are regular people and not polished politicians that can disguise it. Yet, Eric Cantor refuted that individual, and, if you live in that district you can vote for his opponent. But they shouldn’t all get that title (Do you say that about orthodox-Jewish Joel Pollack too?).
Bottom Line: You’re a spinner that will do anything and everything to demonize the Republicans and claim the Democrats as the best. you will take money from others but never share anything. And let me tell you this: your post here was one big stumble block that you so-much felt comfortable with. If you are Jewish you are a modern day Maskil. Someone might suggest that voting for a Democrat isn”t against the Torah or claim that the earmarks and goodies overrule everything, but to spin the Torah like this is nothing but clear cut Apikorsus.November 1, 2010 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #705574
Sorry, you lost as your credibility trying to pose as one of us. Now, run off to your phone bank, you’ve got a lot of work to do to make sure you don’t lose the senate ( I mean , congress isn’t worth wasting your time over).
Next time, use an artscroll talmud. See page 1b of Tractate Brachot, to see what I mean. The secret of winning the election is written there.
Hurray! Two years of gridlock until we get rid of Obama. Just…no Palin please? It hurt me to vote for her last time. She needs help. Which is why we need Obamacare. Because she can’t afford it.
I doubt we’ll see ludwig again. He’s busy, he’ll find another site to troll on. Love the music! Adios!November 1, 2010 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #705577
The Torah tells us not to be greedy or narrow minded.
How does one know if one is narrow minded? How do you know you are not narrow minded? How much real thought did you give to the responses on this thread? When you started the thread, were you looking to convince us or looking for answers?
If you were really looking for answers, would you tie your questions to an election issue the day before the election? You want to talk about something, ask one question at a time,in a few days,and we can talk about it. Maybe you’ll convince me.November 1, 2010 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #705578gavra_at_workParticipant
To support Reb Doniel:
Rov says the people you are helping are not Jews. As such, since the reasons of Aiva don’t apply, there is no use for these programs for us.
To support Ludwig:
Do you even begin to realize how many yeshiva & Kollel boys (and their families) would starve (and stop learning) if we followed the Austrian school & the tea party non-tax (Ayn Randism), thereby cutting programs, including MOFES and support to Israel?November 1, 2010 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #705579
Nope. And many of us don’t like the tea party. You smell like a translation throwing troll, ignorant of any opinions that you don’t have a translation of. Check Brachot 1b for me, will you? Sorry. Your total lack of complexity in your understanding (and Isaiah? who the heck calls Yeshaya Isaiah?).
Sorry buddy. I debate pretty much everyone here – ‘cept trolls. I don’t like the tea party. But you’re a liberal loony tune – an off key one at that, trying to demonstrate your sad knowledge of searchable translation on core Jewish values. First Avos. Now the Rambam. Give us some…oh, Avos d’rebbe boich, or Torah Beis Kisey, or Rabbi Asher Yatzar’s classic political writings ( Reb Doniel, you should quote him by name!) ( SEFER Bar Bey Rav D’ Chad Yoma). But you won’t! Because they aren’t googlable!
Again, you lack the education about basic core Jewish values. Stick to morals, my dear troll. Go vote for all those democratic tzaquim (how did you spell it? and nevi – ah yes, a nevi. Maybe Nebi. We only listen to the words of a Nebi, not Nevi! Do better homework next time. You know, like Nebi Samuel in Israel…nebish )
And how exactly can Jewish not be Torah Observant? Not that a proud one wouldn’t, especially not one who is preaching core Jewish values…
Back to troll school. Maybe try to be a muslim…wait…no…they don’t need to be convinced to vote democratic. Wonder why. Guess they got those core Jewish values. Wait…
Have fun with Matthew.
…not that, being a proud Jew, you’d be quoting matthew. Oops!
Brachot 1b…check it out.
I have not enjoyed a thread this much in a while.
The Torah teaches us not to be narrow minded. And since I am right, you must be narrow minded. This is great stuff!
I am not Pious. Merely intelligent and troll proof – at least, the obvious ones. Bye Troll! You are certainly a big enough poskin for anyone. great nebi poskin! Hurray for Obama! Hurray for Nebi Poskin!November 1, 2010 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #705580squeakParticipant
GAW- I thought the Tea Party supports the Fair Tax, which would mean a continuation of some government subsidies to those with low spending habits. Yes, low spending habits- not low income. Har har.November 1, 2010 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #705581
Do you have any idea how much more money our communities would have to support our institutions if we had an Ayn Rand tax policy?
I’m betting we as a community put in a lot more than we take out.November 1, 2010 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #705582
I believe that the way to deal with the kollel chaverim is this: if we did not have to support the lazy goyim of the world on welfare, we could support our rabbonim. I also believe, however, that kollelnikim should be enterprising and use their talents, if they really do have them, to teach torah to those who are working. Ideally, there should be no more than 10% of our men learning in kollel longer than a few years.
Regarding Israel, I believe that as one of our only allies, we should support Israel, South Korea, Taiwan, and other allies in the fight against communism and tyranny. I endorse a Larry McDonald-style foreign policy over a Ron Paul-style diplomacy. However, I do not believe that Israel requires our dollars; we should encourage Israeli economic growth so that she may be prosper and never again be a slave to the goyishe world. If I were president, I would support Israel monetarily while building up her economy and supporting her right to develop and expand as she wishes.November 1, 2010 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #705583
I am that orthodox Jew (and now I am assured from your previous post that you aren’t) and I want answers. Answers to my original post (that includes a quote from the same very Rambam you mentioned) and answers to my response. And what about my dreams (actually, nightmares) about the Democrats painting Eric Cantor as Hitler? And stop with those quotes about orphans and widows as well as stumble blocks. The Torah has more initiatives than just for them, we have charity. But, charity is by choice. Furthermore, Chazal initiated a 10% equal tax, similar to the tax the Torah demanded to give the Leviim, to support the needy. This is a fair tax to all. Sounds like the plan some ‘radical’ Tea Partiers have in mind.November 1, 2010 11:11 pm at 11:11 pm #705587
Global warming? The originator of that failed hockey stick statistical model admitted that it was faulty- Michael E. Mann is a liar and so are all the global warming people who are preaching pseudo-science. I do think that pollution, acid rain, etc. are problems, as there is scientific evidence to support this. Anthropogenic global warming? That is a complete farce, and example of science being perverted to suit a leftist environmental agenda.
What Nazis are in the Tea Party? Can you list names of those who adhere to National SOCIALISM? Are you aware that Y”S attacked capitalism as a Jewish conspiracy and as a Jewish evil, just like Marx and Engels before him? Goebbels’ writings are full of vicious condemnations and attacks against the free market. The Tea Party is in favor of small government and the free market. How can a movement advocating what the Nazis were against be Nazi itself? Does this make any sense?
The Marxist agenda of “social justice” is not a Torah concept. Never once does the Torah call for hippie-style communitarianism, or an erroneous interpretation of Bereshis 4:9. The neviim were calling for people to help one another. I help others whenever I can, even though I am homeless and have little resources to call my own. However, they DID NOT advocate the welfare state, with Robin Hood-style economics and a paternalistic state doling pout welfare to the orphans and widows. Isaiah is not the Manifesto or Keynes, le havdil.
You think that George Soros and Obama care about you and the poor. They do not. They care about themselves and they want to control capital for themselves. That is how the elite limousine liberals operate- capitalism for us, communism for everyone else. They want to be rich and enjoy all the luxuries while making the American Dream an impossibility for all others through heavy tax burdens and stifling regulations. Even the USSR had capitalism- State Capitalism, in which the ruling elite enjoyed the benefits and delights of capitalism, while everyone else had to fight over the last remaining potatoes on the magazine shelf, due to inflation, which we are suffering from immensely.
Do you want NHS-style health care? Do you want to not be? Just speak to any Canadian or British citizen, who cannot access vital services, tests, and procedures and who are directed to palliative care when the government puts a price tag on their lives. Do you want this kind of Mengele system in the US? If you suffered chronic illness like I do, maybe you would open your eyes and stop wanting to impose your dangerous communist ideas on the rest of us who are happy with things just the way they are.November 1, 2010 11:12 pm at 11:12 pm #705588
Who calls Yeshayah Isaiah? Usually Christians.November 1, 2010 11:12 pm at 11:12 pm #705589
I only used Isaiah for the sake of contrasting this charlatan’s arguments with my own.November 1, 2010 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #705592
See chevra, he quoted Brachot 1b! Hurray! No R’ Asher Yatzar, though. Or the Nebi. Or Beis Kisey.
Pointed made, rabosai? G’day.November 1, 2010 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #705593
Ludwigvanquixote, I thought you were trying to defend the liberals, dancing around in circles? Did the Rosh, Rashba, Ritva, Rambam and Shita also dance in circles?
Talking about arrogant?!
I will not reply to this thread any longer as it is included in DA MA LeHashiv… This intruder is an outright Apikoras beating around the bush and lecturing us about the core beliefs of Yiddishkeit. Get a life, sir!November 1, 2010 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #705594
The American Revolution occurred when people got sick and tired of taxation without representation. They believed they were victims within their own nation. According to your logic, those who fought for our freedom were Nazis, and anyone who feels victimized or marginalized by the actions of their government is a Nazi.
I never encountered R’ ASher Yatzar. Is he some hidden tanna or amora some professors just discovered in an ancient manuscript? I think Daf Alef, Amud Beis, is missing from my Gemara. (lol)November 1, 2010 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #705595
I apologize to charliehall. This ludwig is far more odious and dumb than Prof. Hall any day of the week.November 1, 2010 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #705596
ludwig don quixote:
Ok. I know people who are hard right wing conservatives. These people give a lot of money to tzedaka. In fact, frum jews are overwhelmingly conservative (usually in proportion to how right wing religious they are), and give far more than the average American to charity.
Do you think they are mean, and are living against the torah’s ideal of caring for the poor and weak?
Isn’t it possible that our political debate involves something more than just meanness? Don’t you recognize that?November 1, 2010 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #705598
Thank you Popa.
Charity is a religious ideal. I cannot think of any religion which says not to help the poor and downtrodden. It is just that conservatives believe that individuals, not the government, should provide charity. If taxes went down and if we could claim more money as a tax exemption, more people would give to charity.November 1, 2010 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #705600
See, Reb Doniel, you’re simply an Am HaAretz.
You learn with Gemaras that are missing pages, never learned Asher Yatzer, and bet you never opened up a Beis Kisey, much less used one! My son started learning Beis Kisey on a regular basis when he was 3 – I mean, he needed help, but he got there ! And how old are you? Pashut Bizyonos!
I mean, if you never learned Asher Yatzar, even if you dealt with Beis Kisey, you wouldn’t know what to do afterward! You can’t possibly understand Beis Kisey without Asher Yatzar – it’s in Rambam, you know.
My son knows Asher Yatzar’s works BY HEART! AM HAARETZ!!!
He’s still working on Beis Kisey though…his mother says I need to calm down about it 🙂
What would the Nebich say?
Very shvach. I expected better!November 1, 2010 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #705603
What is a “poskin”?
I never heard of a poskin.November 2, 2010 12:20 am at 12:20 am #705606
“I really do wonder if Ludwigvanquixote is the same poster as charliehall. An investigation should be undertaken. “
No, he isn’t. I always use my real name when commenting.November 2, 2010 12:24 am at 12:24 am #705608
“Do you want NHS-style health care? Do you want to not be? Just speak to any Canadian or British citizen, who cannot access vital services, tests, and procedures and who are directed to palliative care when the government puts a price tag on their lives.”
Brits and Canadians are healthier and live longer. And their cost of health care is far less than that in the US. Either those “services, tests, and procedures” must not be so vital, or a lot of Americans can’t get them, either. And in fact the latter is true as there are tens of millions of Americans who can’t get health insurance for any price. The Republicans today are ok with that. (That wasn’t always the case: Theodore Roosevelt, Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, and Bob Dole supported universal health insurance.)November 2, 2010 12:25 am at 12:25 am #705609
why is everyone answering this creep! (myself included)
if there are no comments to this thread noone will take a second look at it,
try arguing with missionaries it will get you nowhere (I’m not saying don is but i wouldn’t be suprised)
if you ignore someone they go away
forget about posting here and everything will go back to normalNovember 2, 2010 12:30 am at 12:30 am #705610
“What Nazis are in the Tea Party?”
I don’t know that he is an actual Nazi or just a sympathizer, but the Republican and Conservative nominee for the US Congress in New York’s 18th Congressional District claims to be a Tea Partier. Russell’s anti-Semitic writings have been featured on David Duke’s web site. To their credit, the New York Republican and Conservative parties have disavowed him.November 2, 2010 12:36 am at 12:36 am #705611
‘Are you aware that Y”S attacked capitalism as a Jewish conspiracy and as a Jewish evil, just like Marx and Engels before him? Goebbels’ writings are full of vicious condemnations and attacks against the free market.’
This is correct — but being anti-free-market does not make you a socialist. Y”S and other European fascists such as Mussolini, Franco, and Laval believed in the Corporate State in which government aligned itself with the interests of big business and protected them from competition. Clement Attlee and Margaret Thatcher represent two opposite extremes of anti-fascism; one was a socialist and the other a free marketer.
Note that facist does not automatically mean anti-Semite, as the example of Franco shows. But Y”S and Laval certainly were anti-Semites and Mussolini might was well have been given his cooperation with Y”S.
I would add that all the religious parties in Israel were enthusiastic supporters of Ben-Gurion’s socialist economic policies, and with good reasons. The Torah is pretty demanding in terms of its insistence on taking care of all, and puts severe limits on free markets. And had Thatcher-like economic policies been in effect in Israel in the 1950s, it is likely that hundreds of thousands of Jews would have starved to death in the then-poor country.November 2, 2010 12:51 am at 12:51 am #705612
“However, they DID NOT advocate the welfare state, with Robin Hood-style economics and a paternalistic state doling pout welfare to the orphans and widows.”
No, but Torah and Chazal did. Communal authorities are required to provide for the poor, even levying taxes to do so.
The mitzvot that Chazal singled out that are to be taught to prospective converts are not Shabat, kashrut, and taharat hamishpacha — or even the prohibitions against abortion or homosexual sex — but leket, peah, shich’chah, and maaser oni. The reason is simple as I once heard from Rabbi Dr. Moshe Tendler: Non-Jews need to learn that their belongings are not theirs in the Torah world. Everything belongs to God and we are commanded to share and not be resentful about it. In the shemittah year anyone can come into your field and pick fruit from your orchard. In the pilgrimage festivals anyone can show up at your doorstep and you have to let them sleep in your bed. There is no such thing as permanent land ownership in the Land of Israel outside of cities. Overcharging and undercharging in business are prohibited, and when the communal authorities levy taxes for the poor, for education, for health, or for public works we pay them. This isn’t socialism, but it isn’t laissez-faire capitalism either.
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