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Are there two different accounts of Rabbi Akiva’s death, at least one is from the Talmud?
How did Rabbi Akiva of blessed memory die?
Thank youHe was one of the asarah harugei hamalchus that is recounted in Eilat Ezkarah tefilla in the Yom Kippur mussaf and the kinah Arzei Halvanon on Tisha B’Av. His death is described there.
Rabbi Akiva was 120 years old and was one of the Aserei Hareiga Malhcus . He said when they came to get him that he always wanted to Makedesh Shem sshomayim
We all should hope that we, like Rabi Akiva wished for himself, when our time to leave this world arrives we should be killed al kiddush Hashem.
They took iron combs and scraped his flesh.
Oh Joe, don’t start that again.
Imagine the schar in olam haba he received for every scrape.
We should STRIVE to ULTIMATELY REACH the level of Ahavas Hashem at which one wants to die al Kiddush Hashem, and we should strive to have enough Ahavas Hashem and Emunah that if r”l we end up having to die al Kiddush Hashem, we are able to do so with the right mindset.
But I don’t think we should be davening to die al kiddush Hashem and certainly not to die the way that Rabbi Akiva died.But we should daven to be on the level that if r”l it happened, we would be able to deal with it.
Meanwhile, let’s focus on living al kiddush Hashem!
If you want to die al Kiddush Hashem you should daven that when your time comes that that should happen.
Joseph, if you are that eager to die by torture, book a flight tomorrow to Syria, walk into an ISIS camp and burn a Koran. they will be happy to accommodate you.
You can burn it in America. You’re not permitted to take action to trigger getting yourself killed. But you can hope that when your time comes Hashem has you leave this world sacrificing yourself in His name.
Never heard of any Tzaddik Davenning for that. Not even Rebbi Akiva.
You can be slain al Kiddush Hashem at the ripe old age of 120. Of course you may daven for that. That’s the best way to leave this world. But even dying young al kiddush Hashem is the best way to leave the world.
Brachos 61b: Rabbi Akiva replied, “All my life I agonized over the verse, ‘…and you shall love Hashem…with all your life.’ It means, even if they should take your life from you. I pondered, ‘When will this come to me so I can fulfill it? Shall I not rejoice?'”
It says he wanted and waited for this opportunity all his life and now, at the moment the Romans were torturing him to death, he was joyful it was happening to him.
I rather daven to die misas neshika like Moshe Rabbenu and Aaron Hacohen
So you’re wishing for a person who would otherwise be innocent to be forced to become a murderer just to kill you?
We learn from Dovid Hamelech not to daven for nisyonos. We might not pass them. And with this particular nisoyon, there are no second chances.
That’s a very worthwhile, yet much easier, option isn’t it. But is the reward and zchus for that even a fraction of the way Rebbi Akiva went?
I am not sure, but I think it’s possible that you are misunderstanding the Gemara.
And when Jews are killed by goyim, we are sad. We don’t rejoice the way the Arabs do. And we try to do all we can to prevent it. During the holocaust, the Gedolim tried to save as many Jews as they could – they didn’t say, “Great, they get to die al kiddush Hashem. Better they should die al kiddush Hashem now than die later not al kiddush Hashem.”
Also, we daven every day that the day will come when all the goyim recognize Hashem. We are hoping that Mashiach will come today and that no Jews will ever again need to die al Kiddush Hashem.
I realize that your answer to all this could be that one should daven that if he has to die anyhow (if l”a Moshiach comes after he reaches 120), he should daven to die al kiddush Hashem.
I have two responses to that:
1. You should just be davening that Moshiach will come before 120, and that the whole world will do teshuva and no one will murder anyone anymore (like RY basically said).
2. Even if there is such a concept (which I doubt), it only applies to people on that level. For most of us, we should just be davening to be on the level that we want to die al kiddush Hashem.On the other hand, there is one aspect of what you are saying that I agree with.
When people argue that it is dangerous to live in EY, my response is that aside from the fact that I don’t think that’s true, if I had to die anyhow, I would a million times rather die in Eretz Yisrael al kiddush Hashem than to die in chutz l’aretz not al kiddush Hashem.I recently read in Rav Moshe Twersky zatsal HY”D’s biography, that someone once asked him what to do if you’re davening shemona esrei and a siren goes off. He said it’s a catch-22 situation, so either way you should continue davening. If there really is no bomb, chaval to miss out on davening. And if it’s really a bomb, chaval to miss out on the opportunity to die al kiddush Hashem.
The author pointed out in the footnote that he only said this because he didn’t think it was a clearly life-threatening situation that would halachically require someone to protect himself.
Im so confused
Does anybody still take Jospeh seriously?He is well aware of many times throughout davening were we ask Hashem to spare us from Yissurin,
We ask Everyday “v’lo misah meshunah” Joseph knows this.
I cant think of a single place in all of iour tefillos that we ask for a misah meshunah R”l or die al kidush Hashem
(other of course than the joke with the Brisker who is about to bbe killed AL kidush Hasehm so he makes a sincere Beracha in preparation. The would be killer is so moved that he decides to let him go. The Brisker then motions for the killer to finish the task “nu nu Beracha levatala) I guess According to Joseph’s pretend shitah this isnt really a joke)We view R’ AKiva’s Death as such a misah meshuna that many dont even name people with the same name but rather change the last letter from an aleph to hei (chasam Sofer YD)
So selfish of you, Joseph.
“v’lo misah meshunah”
I don’t say that. Where in davening is that?
“Does anybody still take Jospeh seriously?”
I don’t think that’s such a nice thing to say. He means what he says seriously just as much as you do. Even if others might disagree with him, it doesn’t mean that he doesn’t mean it. Just like people disagree with you, but that doesn’t mean that you don’t mean the things you say.
And it’s not like what he’s saying is so crazy. It is based on the Gemara. I just think he is misunderstanding the intent of the Gemara.
LU
I misquoted it is here
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=42759&st=&pgnum=60“He means what he says ”
no he doesnt“but that doesn’t mean that you don’t mean the things you say.”
sometimes it does! *see belowAs Abraham Lincoln famously said “dont believe everything you read on the internet” (google it he really did say that.)
People create online personas, they say all sorts of things to get a rise out of people, to make a provocative statement or just plain old trolling. Joseph has been around for a long time (longer than I have). I know his online persona quite well
See what the moderator had to say http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/how-did-rabbi-akiva-die#post-1270513“And it’s not like what he’s saying is so crazy. ”
It is, and its dangerous that people (like you!) may not realize it. And there are people who are newer to yahadus and more gullible than you. Can you imagine what they think.” It is based on the Gemara.”
Its not” I just think he is misunderstanding the intent of the Gemara.”
Yes, deliberately.
*There is an example of this, in this very post! I made a statement that I dont actually believe. See if you can find it.
“See what the moderator had to say”
That just goes to further prove my point.
“I misquoted it is here”
It seems to be part of a particular nusach of tefilas haderech that I never heard of before. Tefilas haderech is not said every day by most people, and I think that few people say this nusach of tefilas haderech altogether (it’s the first I have even heard of it as far as I recall).
Also one can argue that it is not referring to a misah meshuna that comes about as a kiddush Hashem. Also, it adds the word “alila” in front, which may give it a slightly different meaning. One of the meanings of “alila” is “false charge”. Maybe it is referring to a misa meshuna which is given as a punishment as opposed to a misa meshuna that is a kiddush Hashem. Furthermore, it is said as part of tefilas haderech, so it is probably talking about the type of misa meshuna which occurs while travelling, so the intent may not have been about dying al kiddush Hashem (presumably this was written before there were terrorists bombing busses, etc)
“People create online personas, they say all sorts of things to get a rise out of people, to make a provocative statement or just plain old trolling. ”
I think that people assume that around here a little too quickly sometimes. Posters have done it with other posters as well (besides Joseph). In some cases, it may be a matter of people being complex and having more than one kavana mixed in, so people assume that they are not-serious when in fact they are completely serious but they just have some other things mixed in (I actually am not referring to Joseph with this last sentence, although it may be somewhat true in his case as well).
In other cases, it is just a result of the fact that people have a tendency to be judgmental and also people are influenced by the things that others say about other people and are automatically “mekabel” what others say even though it is assur (but they don’t even realize that is what they are doing and that it is assur).
It’s a bit hard to explain why in 8 years there has never been anyone able to “catch on” to the truth before now.
Everything I explained above is taught to little children in Cheder, pre-Bar Mitzvah. I didn’t say any major chiddushim or anything controversial.
“It seems to be part of a particular nusach of tefilas haderech”
what? No it has nothing to do with Tefials haderech. Iti s a standard part of davening that everybody I know says (or at least did when they werent busy)
Though perhaps nusach Ashkenaz ids diferent (though they have a similar yehi ratzon, it is shorter and might not include that phrase)
joseph?
Mind helping us out? Do you say that yehi ratzon after Hagomel chasadim tovim. Sefard or ashkenaz?“Also one can argue that it is not referring to a misah meshuna that comes about as a kiddush Hashem. ”
Why do you like contrived explanations that arent in the words. IT says misah meshunah it means misah meshuna. period.
“Also, it adds the word “alila” in front, which may give it a slightly different meaning.”
It doesnt” One of the meanings of “alila” is “false charge”. Maybe it is referring to a misa meshuna which is given as a punishment as opposed to a misa meshuna that is a kiddush Hashem. ”
Why would yopu assume that. so it is a very specific tefialh that we should be protected from a “brazen person while we have azis panim who is also a bad friend and neighbor telling lashan haran testifiying falsely who hates people and tattles to the government creatign a libel while we are sick and have harsh sentence against us etc etc” That is quite a specific prayer. Isnt it much more likely that it is listing separate things?
“Furthermore, it is said as part of tefilas haderech, ”
Again it isnt.
Furthermore in the beracha hagomel chasadim (which Joseph certainly says “we say “וְלא לִידֵי נִסָּיון. ” it would be hard to argue that being in a position that one was asked to give his/her life al kiddush hashem R”L isnt a nisayon
” think that people assume that around here a little too quickly sometimes”
Quickly???? It has been years!“Posters have done it with other posters as well (besides Joseph)”
Mai inyan shemitah eitzel har sinai? we are talking about Joseph (though make no mistake other posters do the same thing)Nusach Ashkenaz doesn’t have that phrase.
Dying al kiddush Hashem doesn’t require a nisayon or even a misah meshunah (I guess depending on how you define misah meshunah) .
Joseph
“Everything I explained above is taught to little children in Cheder, …”
this is simply not true.
די האסט פארגעסען אז איך האב געלערנט אין חדר און איך האב קיינמאל נישט געהערט אזעלעכע שטותים
And I asked others who never heard of such a thing either. (of course its possibel you were taught that, but it certainly isnt taught in the average chadarim)BTW why did R” chaninya Ben Teradyon ask that the wet sponges be removed? I guess he doesnt like Olam haba as much as you.
DY
How have you been? Its been a while
“Nusach Ashkenaz doesn’t have that phrase.”Yep Ive since caught that (it isnt in the Gemara the teflal comes form either)
Joseph, what nusach do you daven?“Dying al kiddush Hashem doesn’t require a nisayon or even a misah meshunah”
Of course not!
I’m not sure if you read through the thread though or just my post so you can argue.
Joseph said “We all should hope that we, like Rabi Akiva wished for himself, when our time to leave this world arrives we should be killed al kiddush Hashem.”
This involves both a misa meshunah (scraping flesh with iron combs would widely be considered a misa meshuna by any definition I can think of) and a nisayon too.“Posters have done it with other posters as well (besides Joseph)”
“Mai inyan shemitah eitzel har sinai? we are talking about Joseph (though make no mistake other posters do the same thing)”My point was that people are constantly making incorrect assumptions about other posters. This shows that this is something that people do a lot, so they could be doing it here as well.
” think that people assume that around here a little too quickly sometimes”
Quickly???? It has been years!”That has nothing to do with it. People made these assumptions early on. And even if they didn’t, it is considered to be “too quickly” whenever someone makes an incorrent assumption about someone. Also, I wasn’t only referring to this case. In the less than a year that I have been here, I have seen many, many, incorrect assumptions made about posters. There are many people here who are either very judgmental, not very bright, or have trouble reading, and either think that people said things they didn’t say or make assumptions about the reasons why they wrote what they wrote.
sorry, I looked at it too quickly and thought it had something to do with tefilas haderech (it does mention tefilas haderech in front, but it just meant that you say tefilas haderech there or something).
As DY already pointed out, nusach Ashkenaz doesn’t have that phrase. That’s why I never heard of it before and also why I thought it was part of tefilas haderech. I have never said it and never even heard of it. But if it’s part of nusach sefard, then many Jews do say it every day, so you’re right in terms of the point you were making (even if your words were inadvertently inaccurate).
I didn’t realize that there’s a “comma” in between alila and misa meshuna. That mistake was probably at least partially based on the fact that I thought this was tefilas haderech.
“Dying al kiddush Hashem doesn’t require a nisayon or even a misah meshunah (I guess depending on how you define misah meshunah)”
I had thought of that, but then decided it wasn’t a good argument since wouldn’t any death al Kiddush Hashem be a misah meshuna. Although, as you point out, I suppose this depends on the definition of misha meshunah. I would assume, though, that any unnatural death would fall in that category.
I still think that my first argument that it might be excluding a misah meshuna that is al kiddush Hashem is a reasonable argument. Most misah meshuna’s are not al Kiddush Hashem. We don’t want to die a misah meshuna that does not have the purpose of being a Kiddush Hashem.
Ubiquitin: “Joseph said “We all should hope that we, like Rabi Akiva wished for himself, when our time to leave this world arrives we should be killed al kiddush Hashem.””
Ubiquitin, Joseph didn’t say that we should daven to die the exact way that R’ Akiva did, only that we should daven to die al kiddush Hashem just like R’ Akiva davened to die al kiddush Hashem.
If you think that it’s possible to die al kiddush Hashem w/o a misah meshuna (which I personally have trouble seeing), then this argument (that we daven not to have a misah meshuna) is not a good argument, since the argument is about whether or not we should daven to die al kiddush Hashem.
“It’s a bit hard to explain why in 8 years there has never been anyone able to “catch on” to the truth before now.”
There actually have been several.
Several what?
whenever someone makes an incorrent assumption about someone.
I think several different mods on several different occasions have tried to correct this misperception of yours.“it is considered to be “too quickly” whenever someone makes an incorrent assumption about someone. ”
Ah but this int incorrect.“Also, I wasn’t only referring to this case. ”
I am.
“I have seen many, many, incorrect assumptions made about posters. ”
how do you know thy were incorrect?“There are many people here who are either very judgmental, not very bright, or have trouble reading,”
Oh I couldn’t agree more! though aren’t we being judgemental by saying that?“sorry, I looked at it too quickly and thought it had something to do with tefilas haderech ”
no need to apolagize. IF you dont know ask. dont read quickly If you aren’t familiar with the tefila just ask.
Yes As Ive pointed out already nusach ashkenaz doesn’t have that phrase. they do however have the phrase “Vlo lidei nisayon” which while not as strong a case, still undermines Josephs “position”“I still think that my first argument that it might be excluding a misah meshuna that is al kiddush Hashem is a reasonable argument. ”
I don’t follow, what drives you to insert extra words into tefila that simply aren’t there? Why can’t it mean we don’t want a misah meshunah. period (which is what I’ll bet you’d have said it means before Joseph put his pretend fake idea into your head).I am so confused what you are trying to accomplish. You are confusing Joseph’s position for torah misinai. To the extent that you are reinterpreting tefillos and even Joseph’s own position, he said quote “We all should hope that we, l… should be killed al kiddush Hashem.”” This involves a misah meshunah. I don’t understand why you change his position to now say ” that we should daven to die al kiddush Hashem” that is not what he said. As you point out: Don’t make assumptions of what other posters meant, look at what he said “we should daven to be killed…”. work at better reading comprehension (both of sources cited to you and of posts we are discussing).
There is no mitzva to defend Joseph’s wrong and misguided position (that he more than likely doesn’t actually believe)“If you think that it’s possible to die al kiddush Hashem w/o a misah meshuna”
that was DY“There are many people here who are either very judgmental, not very bright, or have trouble reading,”
“Oh I couldn’t agree more!”Thanks for the confirmation! 🙂 I’m glad there is someone else here who realizes it.
“though aren’t we being judgemental by saying that?”
no, not if you understand what being judgmental means and doesn’t mean. I can’t explain right now, but I think you are bright enough to figure out why that’s not necessarily being judgmental and may actually be the opposite.
“To the extent that you are reinterpreting tefillos and even Joseph’s own position he said quote “We all should hope that we, l… should be killed al kiddush Hashem.”” This involves a misah meshunah. I dont understand why you change his position to know say ” that we should daven to die al kiddush Hashem” that is not what he said”
Ubiquitin, I don’t understand what you are trying to say. Joseph wrote that we should daven to be killed al kiddush Hashem. He did not write that we should daven to have a misah meshunah. Are you trying to say now that you think that dying al Kiddush Hashem has to be a misah meshuna? You wrote above that you didn’t think so.
“If you think that it’s possible to die al kiddush Hashem w/o a misah meshuna”
“that was DY”Yes, but you wrote that you agreed with him:
DY: “Dying al kiddush Hashem doesn’t require a nisayon or even a misah meshunah”
Ubiqiutin: “Of course not!” (post #1271240)
This means that you agree with DY that one can die al kiddush Hashem w/o a misah meshunah. At least that is how I understood it. Did you mean something else? Did you mean the opposite? Did you mean “of course it is not the way you are saying and it’s not true that dying al Kiddush Hashem doesn’t necessarily involve a misah meshuna”?
I see now how “of course not” can be taken either way. Which way did you mean it?
From the continuation of your that post, it sounds like you meant it the way I understood it.
After that, you wrote
” Joseph said “We all should hope that we, like Rabi Akiva wished for himself, when our time to leave this world arrives we should be killed al kiddush Hashem.”
This involves both a misa meshunah (scraping flesh with iron combs would widely be considered a misa meshuna by any definition I can think of) and a nisayon too”I understood that first you were telling DY that his point is correct and that one can die Al Kiddush Hashem w/o a misah meshuna. However, you still felt that your argument (about the fact that we daven not to have a misah meshuna) was still a good argument against Joseph because Joseph’s point was that we are specifically davening to have a misah meshuna. (so even though you think that DY is right and one can die al Kiddush Hasehem w/o a misah meshuna, you are still using this as an arugment against Joseph’s point that we are specifically davening to die al Kiddush Hashem WITH a misah meshuna even though the two don’t always have to go together).
If in fact, when you wrote “of course not”, you meant that you DISagree with DY and you think that dying al kiddush Hashem always involves misah meshuna, then what were you adding by quoting Joseph?
“Several what?”
Several posters who mentioned that they “caught on to the truth” as you put it.
“whenever someone makes an incorrent assumption about someone.”
“I think several different mods on several different occasions have tried to correct this misperception of yours.”And in so doing, inadvertently proved me right!
“There is no mitzva to defend Joseph’s wrong and misguided position (that he more than likely doesn’t actually believe)”
I wasn’t trying to defend his position. I was trying to do 2 things. As far as Joseph was concerned, I wasn’t defending his position but rather his person. It is one thing to attack someone’s position; it is another to attack the person and make negative assumptions about them. I try to always defend anyone who I think is being unfairly attacked in the Coffee Room. I will b”n defend you also if I see you being unfairly attacked as a person.
edited upon request, sorry
Regarding Joseph’s position, I don’t agree with his position and I do agree with yours. What I was arguing against was your argument against his position which I thought may have flaws.
Tachlis, the real issue here is what the Gemara does and doesn’t mean. And for that, someone needs to find a reliable source that explains it. I’m not sure where one would find it. But I think that is really the only good argument possible here (or it certainly would be the best one).
“You are confusing Joseph’s position for torah misinai.”
Not at all. I don’t see where you see that. I don’t even agree with his position. As I pointed out previously, I am just analyzing your proof against his position to see if it’s a good proof or not.
LB -thanks!!! You are the best!!! I am so happy you are around to be supportive of me!!! I am curious as to which part you are referring to, but you don’t have to say if you don’t want to.
btw, when I mentioned that lately I don’t always say anything when I see someone being attacked, you were one of the examples I had in mind. I felt really bad about that and have been wanting to try to find the opportunity to say something to you, to apologize to you, and to let you know that you have my support even when I feel I can’t speak out.
I hate not saying anything in such cases, but I realized that I have to be realistic and know what I can and can’t handle. I also realized that sometimes you can accomplish more when you don’t say something every time.
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