Tagged: noticing things
July 20, 2011 4:15 am at 4:15 am #598101
I have a good friend whose home I frequent for Shabbos a lot(the gum chewer) and I noticed a lot of breaches in halacha when it comes to warming up foods etc. I decided that I really do not feel comfortable eating there and I dont know how to tell them without hurting their feelings(which is the last thing I would want to do). They are a neighbor(so I see them all the time) and did so much for my family when a family member died(hosted us many times for Shabbos so we would not be lonely). Should we stop eating out everywhere so we dont have to be discrimanatory. I really want my guidelines to be : No head covering(both man(he covers his head) and woman(she does not)) I dont eat at your house). Although you cannot tell from this either because I have been to peoples homes where the woman wears a sheitel and has no idea on what she cannot warm up on a blech in the day(i.e. liquid stuff). What do I do.
Ps. this friend has questioned me before in the past when I have turned down invitations to come by asking “do you not trust my kashrus?”July 20, 2011 4:26 am at 4:26 am #1051833
Very very very tough situation. I face this every week too. Not really much advice besides try to realize which halachos are really important and which you can be a little meikal on to maintain peace. Sometimes the kiddush Hashem and relationship is more important than fighting and anger.July 20, 2011 4:27 am at 4:27 am #1051834
Sender Av, well the obvious answer is no, you do not trust their kashrus. Being that the friend went as far as to ask you, it seems that he/ she feel that their kashrus is not up to your standard as well. Be sensitive when discussing the matter and don’t make them feel like you’re “more frumy” than them, rather you hold by some chumros that they don’t (aka follow husband’s rosh yeshiva regarding controversial matters).
I wish you siyata dishmaya to deal with this matter appropriately!July 20, 2011 6:53 am at 6:53 am #1051835July 20, 2011 8:50 am at 8:50 am #1051836
Speak to your Rav who can guide you as to what should be done in your particular situation. Would your friends be interested at all in learning about the halachot of warming foods on Shabbat? This could turn into something positive – they learn the proper way to do things, and you would be able to continue to eat at their home.July 20, 2011 9:28 am at 9:28 am #1051837
I would talk to a rabbi about this before doing anything.July 20, 2011 11:40 am at 11:40 am #1051838
Maybe invite your friend to a shuir on Hilchos Shabbos. You might say that you don’t feel confident in your kowledge and feel the need for a “brush up!”July 20, 2011 11:54 am at 11:54 am #1051839
I agree with mamashtakeh and charliehall. Kapusta’s idea, IMHO, can only work for a limited time. Another name is right, but before it gets to that, determine if you really need to avoid eating there.
Your idea, Sender Av, of not eating anywhere so as not to insult them, is only good if it’s practical. It would be a tremendous sacrifice on your part, and, not knowing the individual circumstances of your life, I don’t know if you could pull it off.
Whatever you do, hatzlocha!July 20, 2011 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #1051840
Kapusta. I wish that worked. The way that these people think is if you invite them one week, they want to host us the next week.(tit for tat), and everyone must bring something( us to them and them to us). I dont even really like letting them bring food into our house. I want to speak about it with the rabbi but I dont know how to do so without him figuring out who it is or me plainly telling him.
These people are Orthodox and the man has (conservative) smicha. He studies all day and knows halacha. He DOES NOT like or (seem to) follow any chumra and if it not in the Mishna Bruera, it seems like it is not halacha to him. When I mentioned to him before about insulating food on Shabbos he acknowledged that it should not be done and then said it does pertain to the “unblech”. He also says no one can drive to his house on Shabbos and then lets his wife invite people who do so. I dont know what to do.
Is it possible to just avoid it? You know “I’m tired this week…-although sometimes this does not work”July 20, 2011 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #1051841
get a lifeMember
If the only problem is the warming up of food, you could go and not eat the “warm food” only challa and salads etc then go home and eat thesnitzil you warmed up for yourself.
Not easy but better than insulting someone.
Also IMHO someone who grow up conservative is harder to “retrain” vis a via HAlachaJuly 20, 2011 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1051842
This is a really tough situation. It seems like the only options are to hurt her feelings and keep your kashrus, or to compromise your kashrus. You could say that your husband/kids/wife/etc. want to spend some quieter Shabboses at home. That way you will get out of going there, but it doesn’t really solve the problem either. The bottom line is that she is going to be hurt one way or another – either by you telling her that you have problems with her kashrus or by avoiding them. Do you have to tell your Rav who it is? Will the Rav definitely figure it out? Do they have a lot of other guests? You may not be the first person who feels this way.
I have family that stopped covering their hair and I noticed some problems in their kashrus. To keep shalom (and for them not to accuse us of being the “meshugena frummies”), we are very careful with what we eat there. They often have a lot of people over, so we can get away with eating challah and cold cuts and staying away from “problem” foods.
I hope you can figure this out. Hatzlacha!July 20, 2011 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #1051843
The halachos of warming things up are very complex, and there are different shitos on them.
I know of a respected Rav who holds that you can leave your oven on a low temperature (well below boiling) and then put dry items into it to warm up – if you can remove it by hand, it’s obviously not yad soledes, and ein bishul achar bishul for dry foods.
Just because you don’t agree with these does not make it assur for you to eat the food.July 20, 2011 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #1051844
get a life: I wish it were that easy and I dont think it is so far for me to go hungry on Shabbos. This persons daughter invited us a couple of weeks ago to her house. I noticed that she had all her food(with gravy) on a hot plate (which was not covered with aluminum foil). She even said something about how some people say it must be covered, others dont( I did not ask anything, she started the conversation). She also insulated everything with towels. I tried to eat the dips and hummus and stuff and I stayed away from the chicken. I was at least looking forward to the apple pie I brought her, but she ended up putting it on the hot plate so I didnt have it either. I hope it was good…and I was still hungry.July 20, 2011 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #1051845
Porty, we also have friends who used to cover their heads and stopped. My sister also noticed something questionable in their fridge. The good thing is that they only invited us for Thanksgiving, so we told them we no longer do thanksgiving(American one) and solved the problem, although I think that we broke a tradition of us coming to them bothers them.July 20, 2011 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #1051846
the problem isnt bishul achar bishul…its more mechzei k’mevashel as i understand it, and thats a problemJuly 20, 2011 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #1051847
Just because you don’t agree with these does not make it assur for you to eat the food.
If his Rov (like most) hold it’s assur and makes it treif, then even if there is some rabbi who holds it’s okay for the other person, it’s still assur and treif for him to eat there — as that’s his rov’s psak.July 20, 2011 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #1051848
Since I’m a MO Jew who went to charedi yeshivos, I have plenty of friends who don’t eat by me, and plenty of friends whose houses I would not eat at. Sometimes accommodations can be made, when friends who keep cholov yisroel come over, we do only cholov yisroel (cold only because of keilim.) If we have someone over for shabbos, we ask about shechita preferences as well as allergies. When I meet friends whose kashrus standards aren’t my own, either they do something similar or we eat out. So far I’ve been dealing this way for years and my parents have been doing the same since before I was born and none of us has lost a friend over it yet.
If you want an extreme example, we once visited one of my father’s non-Jewish friends from college (going back over thirty years). He bought kosher cold cuts, kosher bread, kosher cake, and a new knife all so we could eat there once. Another non-Jewish friend of his has a drawer with three sets of kosher dishes (read 6, milchig plus fleishig) for when his Jewish friends visit.July 20, 2011 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #1051849
Avram in MDParticipant
Out of curiosity (I’m intending to ask, not challenge), what does/would the Rav say regarding the maris ayin of putting items into a turned-on oven on Shabbos, thus giving the appearance of baking on Shabbos? I remember learning that a big part of the reason for having a blech, for example, is so your action does not appear to be cooking. I can understand that, by taking things out of the oven by hand, it is obvious that they are not above yad soledes bo, but what about putting them in?July 20, 2011 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #1051850
I would talk it over with someone else who knows the neighbor and would be able to tell you what to tell them without hurting them. Is there anyone else on the block that has this issue. Im sure you’re nto the only ones who dont feel comfy in their home. I would say that honesty is the best policy but dont tell it to him in a condescending way- showing that you are greaterJuly 20, 2011 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #1051851
Ctrl Alt DelParticipant
I was once going through a tough time in my life and a rav I consulted told me you must be some sort of tzaddik that hashem would send you such a nisayon. (This is not to brag but just an illustration) I think you too are now being put through a great nisayon. You have a tremendous opportunity here to provide gentle tochecha and keep sholom. I wish I had some sage advice to give you. I agree with Mamash, the best advice is to consult a rav who can guide you on this. Also choose the rav you ask wisely. Not every rav has a knack for handling things like this. I don’t envy you but surly you must be some sort of tzaddik to have had a nisayon like this sent to you. Don’t mess it up. Ha ha, no pressure right?July 20, 2011 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #1051852
I have this issue with a family member. It’s so much easier with a purely treif home, then everyone knows you can’t eat there- they may think you’re silly for keeping “all those rules”, but at least they won’t be insulted because they know they’re not keeping the rules. But someone who THINKS they’re keeping perfectly kosher will be insulted if you insinuate that they’re not.
In my case, we try to come at times when they’re only serving snacks (in other words, out of a package, so you know what you’re eating is kosher) and don’t eat meals there. We do make sure to always eat something while we’re there (something that we know for sure is ok, not off the dishes etc). Maybe there’s a way you can still eat certain things there?July 20, 2011 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #1051853
Ctr Alt… me???…a tzadik? hahahahhahahahah!!!! I can only hope.July 20, 2011 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #1051854
ItcheSrulik: The goy has neemanus to trust his “kosher keilim”.July 20, 2011 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #1051855
Adorable, I dont think other people have this problem because they are not as close with this family as we are and dont notice what is going on in the kitchen or what kind of food they eat and trust them. The other people who are close with them are more like them in terms of hashkafa and do not care. I mentioned before that her daughter also invited us and I know some people do not eat by her and tell her so. Now I know why.July 20, 2011 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #1051856
As they seem knowlegable and cognizant of Halacha, could you tell them the following.
I am recently realizing that you:
1. Warm up liquids on Shabbos in the following manner.
We are makpid not to do that and would like to continue eating by you, but have to ask you to do the following …
2. Whatever other things you need to discuss ….
Don’t present it like they are violating Halacha, but rather that you do differently, like the Cholov Yisroel example above.
The conversation may be difficult or somewhat insulting, but present it pleasantly and emphasize that you want to continue coming. And if it works when you do come, bring something for the meal as a gift so to speak, not something to be correcting them about.July 20, 2011 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #1051857
so why cant you tell her the same thing that they tell her? that would at least take care of the daughter. would you be able to tell the parents the same thing that you would tell the daughter (meaning the same thing that the others tell the daughter)July 20, 2011 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #1051858
I was at least looking forward to the apple pie I brought her, but she ended up putting it on the hot plate so I didnt have it either.
I don’t think the apple pie would be a problem to eat, because it was fully edible anyhow (putting it on a non-valid blech would be a problem, but not eating it after it was done).July 20, 2011 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #1051859
I want to speak about it with the rabbi but I dont know how to do so without him figuring out who it is or me plainly telling him.</em.
As long as the rabbi can be discreet about it, why not tell him? It’s l’toeles.July 20, 2011 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #1051860
Not always is warming liquids Assur.
If the food is a solid that contains a small amount of liquid, rhe Rama holds that it can be warmed. (Reb Moshe is Machmir, if you would like to know)
If there is liquid that will ooze out during the warming process, that is Muttar to warm according to almost everybody.
Using a hot plate, acc. to Reb Shlomo Zalman and Reb MOshe is no problem of Mechzi Kemevashel, and if you cover it with aluminum, you can take food out the fridge and put it on your hotplate on shabbos.
Reb Elyashiv says that you should put your food onto an upside-down foil container but you don’t have to go like him, if you don’t want.
You should not push away Halacha for Sholom! Absolutely not!
You can find heterim for Bedieved situations like this and not everything that you are Machmir for at home (although recommended), makes food Assur to eat.
(i will try and post sources for everything later)July 20, 2011 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #1051861
One should not compromise on kashrus or halacha. Not even minhugim or gedarim and certainly not halacha. One shouldn’t even put themselves in a b’dieved situation.July 20, 2011 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #1051862
I had a similar case regarding kashrus not shabbos. I was in a friends house where I used to eat until I saw a cookbook with treif recipes in it. After that, I feel that I can’t trust his kashrus anymore and I don’t eat there.July 20, 2011 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #1051863
Moshe Rose, I have tons of cookbooks with treif recipes in them. Of course I dont make them. They also have tons of kosher recipes in them. I really hope that was a joke. I can never tell in the CR.
Daas, I think the apple pie might have been a little liquidy.
Kollel Wife: I think they will argue what I tell them.July 20, 2011 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #1051864
Daas, I think the apple pie might have been a little liquidy.
It could be a little liquid and not be a problem – it depends how liquid – and it probably is not a problem to eat it once it was done already, anyhow (but I have to look this one up to be sure).
Either way, it was probably a good idea not to eat it regardless, so they shouldn’t take it as your “hechsher” on what was done.July 20, 2011 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #1051865
mosherose- stupid way to decide that they are not keeping a kosher home. but you seem to always do things that are “not typical” so go right ahead. I hope you marry someone who goes along with all your meshugasin. actually you wont talk to her so you would never know what she thinks….
I think mosherose is joe! Im almost positiveJuly 20, 2011 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #1051866
No joke. If he has treif recipes in his home, I have to wonder if his wife ever made any of them. I can’t speak a out you but in general a yid should not have treif recipes like pork and basar bchalav in his home.July 20, 2011 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #1051867
Sender- whatever you do BE SO SO SO CAREFUL not to chalila hurt this persons feelings- remember, u might be on one level and shes just reaching there in her own way, if your going to “kindly” sweep her out the door, remember shes a tzelem elokim, you want K’V Hashem to say, ok, ur not so tznius when ur davening to me- please get out of my thrown room…
I do hear where your coming…
maybe you should speak to daas torah!July 20, 2011 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #1051868
Say, “I know longer want to eat in your home because I dont truest your kashrus.” Nothing like a bit of honesty.July 20, 2011 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #1051869
Moshe Rose. Pardon me, but…that is ridiculous. We have cookbooks like the Silver Palate, Womans day cookbook series and some others that have a variety of recipes. It is no reason to suspect anyone because they have Some treif recipes in them. One of my fathers cousins once brought him a cookbook for his birthday(we are a cooking family) that was nothing but treif recipes. I am glad Barnes and Noble let me exchange it for a wonderful Hadassah cookbook.July 20, 2011 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #1051870
My good friend lives across the street from a Treif restaurant…you know the one with the big M…well I’m not going to eat by him. Chas Vashalom he sleep walks one night and buys a burger without knowing and eats it…July 20, 2011 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #1051871
I have this problem to some extent with my grandparents and my mother-in-law. My grandparents have an apartment in E”Y and come for a few months a year. They tend to buy stuff from the shuk that we won’t eat, like fruits and vegetables during shvi’is or rabanut foods. We made excuses until my grandmother got the hint. We didn’t handle it the right way.
My mother-in-law is not quite familiar with hilchos Shabbos. I’ve seen her or her mother (who lives with her) lower the temperature on the croc-pot on Shabbos because it was “too hot”. We didn’t eat chulent that Shabbos. We also snuck some keilim and toiveled them.
The best advice I can offer you is if you do have to go to their house, eat only dry foods of whose hechser you are sure of. If they question you, tell him that your Rov “paskened” that you can’t eat liquid foods that were warmed up.
Honestly though, I personally would always wonder about the hechsheirim on even the dry foods. I would say something like “look, lately we decided to follow a certain Rov’s shitos in kashrus and because of that I just can’t eat at your house anymore. I don’t want things to end between us, so maybe you can come over to my house more often or we can eat out over weekends”. Then hope that you’re not left with a big elephant in the room.July 20, 2011 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #1051872
“Reb Elyashiv says that you should put your food onto an upside-down foil container”
I don’t know of any poskim who says that this way is assur; do you?
“and if you cover it with aluminum”
Be careful, wrapping the food entirely will cause an issur of hatmana.
Sender Av, your good friend’s practices has the backing of major poskim who rule leniently; but that’s no reason to treat him the way you do.July 20, 2011 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #1051873
Mosherose: some of my best chicken recipes were adapted from recipes for pork. I read all sorts of recipes and you can make a lot of sauces and toppings originally intended for pork and use them on chicken and beef. Your reasoning has no validity.July 20, 2011 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #1051874
cherrybim, in regard to which? Heating up food with gravy? Insulating? (one I did not post before)scooping cholent out of the crock pot while it is still on the blech? chewing treif gum?July 20, 2011 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #1051875
We also snuck some keilim and toiveled them.
Not pashut at all.July 20, 2011 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #1051876
No joke. If he has treif recipes in his home, I have to wonder if his wife ever made any of them. I can’t speak a out you but in general a yid should not have treif recipes like pork and basar bchalav in his home.
For that matter, a Yid shouldn’t have both meat and milk in his home, lest he come to cook them together.July 20, 2011 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #1051877
Moshe Rose, just when I think you couldn’t possibly say anything more controversial, you prove me wrong. There are LOTS of wonderful recipes in the treifest of treif cookbooks. You know what ingredients are kosher. So skip those recipes that contain them, or do as some have said here, and adapt them for kosher cooking.
There would be no Chinese, Italian, or French restaurants if people followed your way of thinking. You limit yourself greatly AND are virtually motzi shem ra on your friends at whose home you refuse to eat now. But carry on…July 20, 2011 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #1051878
Come to think of it, a Yid shouldn’t have either meat or milk in his home. He might end up buying the other type and then cook them together.July 20, 2011 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #1051879
Maybe invite them for Shabbos lunch and go to them for Seudah Shlishis (only) when the menu is usually cold salads…?July 21, 2011 2:08 am at 2:08 am #1051880
I have been thinking, that there really aren’t a lot of ways to actually have b’dieved tarfus in your kitchen, that someone needs to be concerned about.
We can safely assume that anyone who attempts to keep kosher only buys kosher food. Now, there are no companies who make questionable meat, if we assume they aren’t buying Hebrew National. There are some hashgachos I don’t eat, but what are the chances that they are serving you something from those, and that it actually is b’dieved not kosher.
You need to be concerned they don’t ask shailos when things happen. However, we can say that a shaila probably didn’t happen within 24 hours, and say stam keilim einum bnei yoman regarding these shailos, since it probably didn’t happen, and even if it did, it may be pogem b’ein. So I’m not concerned about keilim.
This thread raises an interesting issue of mleches shabbos. Yet, most things they would do are probably only bishul d’rabonon. I need to look into this again, but I’m not so sure you really need to worry about it so much if that’s the only ch’shash.
Hmmmm.July 21, 2011 2:51 am at 2:51 am #1051881
You know what ingredients are kosher. So skip those recipes that contain them, “
of course I MEANT to say… “you know what ingredients are NOT kosher…” I was so upset by Mosherose’s over-the-top comment that I lost my head.
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