How girls are causing the shidduch crisis!

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  • #1832408
    Workingbochur95
    Participant

    I am writing to you on behalf of myself and two of my roommates, all of whom are single bochurim, ages 23 to 25.
    We all grew up in spiritually lean Modern Orthodox homes, but we each found the Light in the Yeshivish velt, which we had started following
    while learning in our respective yeshivos in Eretz Yisroel,
    after graduating co-ed high schools.

    Since we were all 21 (in accordance to the “He’a 21″ Mishpacha ads!), we have been trying to get ourselves married.
    Baruch Hashem, we each come from wealthy homes with the financial capacity to support us learning full-time. (At least my family is willing to do so for up to a few months, but I am unsure about my roommates’ families.)

    Despite this, many shadchanim, in addition the girls or their parents, have been giving us the cold shoulder,
    citing our family backgrounds as the #1 reason. This includes 24-year-old girls who are taller than 5’7″;
    I dwarf both of my roommates standing at 5’9”.

    If the Yeshivish velt is desperate to solve the Shidduch Crisis, then they must overturn whichever takana they instituted
    prohibiting a “cookie-cutter” Bais Yaakov girl from marrying a bochur like myself or my roommates whose values are objectively identical to their own.

    If these girls had to choose, would they rather remain single FOR LIFE? Or would they rather marry serious bnei torah whose mothers and sisters simply happen not to be tznuos??
    And what is the worst thing that could happen if these girls married bochurim whose parents are LWMO? Shalom Bayis problems? Would they become maniacally depressed and jealous of their friends whose machtonim are Yeshivish????

    #1832430
    1
    Participant

    There are a lot of girls out there who are having a good time going on vacations, eating out in fancy restaurants, etc.

    #1832462
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Workingbachur,

    I understand your pain

    I’m just giving two examples of what the other side might see

    Would your family hold up to the kashrus status of the girl (chalav yisrael for one thing)?

    Does your family have a tv?

    I’m not trying to say you’re wrong, I’m just trying to see the other side of things

    #1832468
    CTRebbe
    Participant

    I do not want to discount the point point made by the OP. I am sure that it is true that there are many people who reject proposed shiduchim (or after a date) for ridiculous reasons. It is likely that very often these rejections could be from the parents with twisted hashkafos who are messing up their kids lives.

    However, we don’t always know the whole story and very often assumptions are made that are just not true. It could be that the rejections come for valid reasons. For example, if a girl feels she needs a boy currently in Yeshiva and you are working (your title gives that one away) then that is a valid reason to reject a proposal based on HER requirements. You may be a much higher quality yarei shomayim and better catch than the guy in Yeshiva who misses minyanim and sleeps through half of seder, but that is not what she is looking for. It could be some girls feel they need a guy taller than her in order to respect him (BTW they say that R’ Ahron Kotler’s wife was a head taller than him. She did not need the physical height since everything else about him more than made up for it)

    We also need to remember when it comes to shidduchim something that is true in all parts of life. Hashem runs the world and will determine when we find our proper zivug. We need to do our hishtadlus and daven but it is silly for us to say “the reason that I am not married is that I went to a co-ed high school and girls are rejecting me.” Your job is to do your best job as a Jew and when you get rejected thank the One above for keeping you away from a machshefa who could ruin your life. If you and your roommates are great guys, the world will recognize that. There are a ton of girls (and their parents) who are probably reading this and saying “how do I get these boys?!”

    #1832483
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Okay, I’m calling troll post. Starting at the claim that a modern orthodox family would agree to support you in learning “for a few months” and moving onward to the “this includes girls taller than 5’7″ ”

    On the chance I am wrong – I think CA answered well and I will add to it. It is very difficult. Problems spring up all the time and it is not an easy situation. I think it would be wrong not to consider a boy from a more modern home or a baal tshuva if he is the right one, but your blow off attitude about potential problems is totally wrong.

    1 – that is just a dumb response. sorry, rude response. and it isn’t even an answer. does a girl using the money she works to earn imply she would rather be alone because she isn’t rotting on a chair by a window?

    #1832495
    lkwdstrong
    Participant

    k while i do feel ur pain, OP, allow me to explain pls… 1st of all, for a lot of girls, a few months of support aint gonna cut it cuz they wanna marry long term learners… who wont be going into business for 5+ years… but never mind that, sometimes girls feel that they waited this long (however many years) to find their bashert and dont feel they shud be giving in in what they consider such a big way… perhaps we shud be starting with the high skwl girls and teaching them how ppl are dif and ppl change and we dont all need to marry the same guy who grew up mad yeshivish… one more point- i think guys need to realize how painful it is for a girl when all her friends are getting married one by one n nothing is coming for her… whether or not she goes out… they dont want to be causing the shidduch crisis at all!!! ty for understanding, may Hashem bentch u and ur friends with ur basherts bkarov!!!

    #1832498
    meir G
    Participant

    you maybe fishing for the right fish in the wrong pond
    there are many many girls who ” became frummer in ey” after graduating from shulamis , stern…or even more modern schools . BH there are so many couples like these that built beautiful homes leshem ultiferes . it has nothing to do w tv or cholov yisroel its that people gravitate to families w similar backgrounds . dont try to be like “them ” they/ we need to be more like you
    there are many mashpiem that are familier in navigating the system such as rav mordechai finkelman rav sender gluck , rav yehuda horowitz and so many others hatzlocho ubrachoh

    #1832516
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    If these young women are so insecure that they would be pressured by their families not to engage with accomplished young bnai torah because of their parents’ hashkafah, consider yourselves lucky that you didn’t end up being in a relationship with them. There are plenty of bnos Yisroel who aren’t that shallow and immature and will judge you for whom YOU ARE and not focus on your mother’s hemlines.

    #1832553
    Joseph
    Participant

    OP/WB95: Would you agree to marry a girl who grew up LWMO but became Yeshivish?

    #1832561
    yochy
    Participant

    You are 100 % correct that some people are very judgmental and this is not a good ting. This however is not the cause of the shidduch crisis. The cause of that is an uneven amount of players in the game and the only way that can be corrected is to even it out. The only way to even it out is for people to marry very close to their age. Keep on trying and I am sure you will find your shidduch very soon. But lets not mix up two completely different issues. May you be matzliach soon.

    #1832577
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Yochy

    I hope you’re joking

    #1832656
    southerner
    Participant

    I have a daughter turning 18 now. Would be thrilled if she connected with author of this post or his roommates!

    #1832739
    Workingbochur95
    Participant

    None of are you answering the question.

    What are the reasons for the taboo against BY girls marrying bochurim like us?
    Is there a potential for shalom bayis problems if the husband wasn’t born Yeshivish?

    #1832741
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “ None of are you answering the question.

    What are the reasons for the taboo …”

    1. That wasn’t your question
    2. Nobody claimed it’s taboo except you
    3. You did get responses to the question you asked, just not the entertainment you were hoping for.

    #1832745
    jjj
    Participant

    Workingbochur95
    ..so there’s no taboo, but realistically, both the girls and the boys who are dating are intelligent/down to earth enough to understand that marriage itself offers up enough unexpected challenges on it’s own, even without additional possible stressors that come from significantly differing family backgrounds…and so only the more intrepid/strong/ less conventional girls who have the strength of character and desire to stand their own ground and be different would be brave enough to marry you boys who had the guts/strength of character to do the unconventional things, moving more to the right…and “flipping out”.

    #1832773
    rightwriter
    Participant

    These girls are becoming too picky for their own good. Everything needs to be perfect before marriage they think and demand. And then when they are over 30 and it starts getting really late, they still don’t wake up.

    The amount of attraction that they developed for money has gotten out of control. So many good guys who want to get married and simply aren’t “qualified” enough by the sick standards that have been set, just to have a woman. Then they get depressed and unbalanced being alone and not even allowed to be in a relationship without being married. So what choice do they have aside from just giving everything up? How long can one be trapped alone.

    Yes the blame is on these new age minded woman and girls and all the ones who surround them such as sick minded parents and shadchanim and friends instilling into their mind ” strive for perfect” ” he has to be settled what do you want to live on the street? He needs to have a career not just a job!”.

    Perfect? Nothing is perfect even after marriage! Which is why the divorce rates are going up since these corrupt minds expect things that are unrealistic and don’t understand it doesn’t work that way. There’s a reason why it was easier to get married back in the day and why people stayed together.
    They didn’t file for a get/divorce anytime the husband got upset or said a wrong word to them or didn’t take out the garbage!

    Yes there are some guys out there who aren’t serious. But today it is the girls who play games and simply have such demands and requirements that it seems they don’t mind being alone their whole life rather than ‘settling” for any less than a prince.

    So many good guys out there who simply aren’t given a chance. These girls would be considered lucky to have them as a husband who would love and care for them more than they could imagine. Yet most go for money and many end up regretting it since they get treated like nothing and it’s too late once they have 3 kids and realize this wasn’t what they wanted.

    What happened to a woman would rather settle than be alone? In the Talmud. It seems like that is so far from today’s reality. Besides who’s settling? They aren’t even giving a chance to good guys who by the way work and learn Torah as well! Since when did money become such a Torah principle! “He has to look good, have a full time career, full time yeshiva bachur, and do all the chores around the house including taking care of the kids”! What world are we living in. Nowadays women feel they don’t even need to cook for the house. It’s 2020 equal rights. How is it equal if the man still has to work full time plus do all of her work or not expect anything from her not even to make food! Sick corrupted minds.

    #1832936
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    🤔

    8th thread all with the same theme….

    I’m starting to understand why girls don’t want to date you

    #1832988
    Mistykins
    Participant

    I hope this is a troll post. There are girls out there davening nightly to find a good chosson, and then this poster saying “they’re 24 and tall. They can’t afford to be picky anymore”.

    I’d rather my daughter marry at 30 than end up with a man who insists she should settle for him instead of with the respectful husband she deserves.

    #1832996
    rightwriter
    Participant

    Mystikins_”I’d rather my daughter marry at 30 than end up with a man who insists she should settle for him instead of with the respectful husband she deserves.”

    Your sick logic is part of the issue and it’s why your daughter likely will have to wait until 30 to get the “husband she deserves” according to your qualifications.

    #1833006
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    rightwriter – what are you being so nasty for? You obviously didn’t follow the conversation. This guy writes a troll post and deliberately says dumb things to be funny and stir the pot. She responds to them and says that her daughter deserves better. That’s not sick logic. Based on your rant it sounds like you have been burned but that can’t be projected on everyone, and it doesn’t mean that everyone who wants a quality relationship is nuts.

    I have seen guys present themselves as wonderful, straight, serious guys but they forgot that their facebook pages are public. They may think the girls said no out of pickiness, but that’s because they don’t have a clue that they are presenting a very unattractive side of themselves that doesn’t quite match their resume.

    Don’t assume you know what makes people tick. Lots of guys and girls out there are not quite as put together/socially healthy as they think and in their minds it will always be the other person’s fault. The phrase “for no reason” ends with “that I am aware of”.

    #1833029
    Billywee
    Participant

    The main reason is the Yeshiva and girls schools don’t produce enough compatible people. A lot of girls won’t settle for less than the “Perfect” Yeshiva guy. While the Yeshivas don’t produce enough of them. Look at the Dear Shadchan letters. The girl that refused a second date because in the car (only) while driving he took off his hat. Or the girl that found the perfect guy til she found out ONE SEDER he went to get pizza. The boys come out anywhere from want to work, might want to work, “Cool” Yeshivish, to Super Yeshivish. The girls are taught to not “settle” for anything less than Super Yeshivish and enough simply aren’t being produced.

    #1833017
    chaim_baruch
    Participant

    You and your friends should come on Aliyah and find yourselves a nice Edot HaMizrach or Temani girl. But, If your Hebrew is not strong, find a Brit, Australian, Canadian or South African. The point is, don’t limit yourself to your own community.

    #1833056
    PuhLease
    Participant

    This is actually painful to read on a myriad of levels, but please induge me in starting with the first.
    A definite lack of education, or displaying a lack of education: I.e., please see post on the bottom from poster @lkwdstrong and my corrections/comments ARE IN CAPITAL LETTERS. This was actually painful to read.
    For the record, I will not, nor did not, date anyone who could not speak or write English properly, and I know many other girls/women who feel the same way.

    lkwdstrong

    (OK) (k while i(I) do feel ur (YOUR) pain, OP, allow me to explain pls (PLEASE)… 1st(FIRST) of all, for a lot of girls, a few months of support aint (IS NOT, SINCE AIN’T IS NOT A WORD) gonna (GOING0) cut it cuz (BECAUSE) they wanna (WANT TO )marry long term learners… who wont (WON’T) be going into business for 5+ years… but never mind that, sometimes girls feel that they waited this long (however many years) to find their bashert and dont(DON’T) feel they shud (SHOULD) be giving in in what they consider such a big way… perhaps we shu (SHOULD)d be starting with the high skwl(SCHOOL) girls and teaching them how ppl (PEOPLE) are dif(DIFFERENT) and pp (PEOPLE)l change and we dont all need to marry the same guy who grew up mad yeshivish… one more point- i (I)think guys need to realize how painful it is for a girl when all her friends are getting married one by one n (AND) nothing is coming for her… whether or not she goes out… they dont (DON’T) want to be causing the shidduch crisis at all!!! ty (THANK YOU) for understanding, may Hashem bentch u (YOU) and (YOUR) ur friends with ur (YOUR) basherts bkarov!!!
    *********************************************\\
    So, why do I “pick” at spelling (although I left punctuation and grammar alone)? Because frankly, if someone is planning on learning full time, someone else is going to have to support the family (at some point), and shidduch crisis or lack thereof, being able to speak/write correctly is extremely important

    #1833019
    Avi K
    Participant

    CA,
    1. Who say that she will have to watch TV in their home?
    2. Maybe they will. However, who says that her chumrot trump honoring in-laws or getting married (women are obligated in shevet)? Maybe a man who is looking for good middot and common sense will not be interested in them. They can then keep company with their mirrors. “Mirror, mirror on the wall. Who is the frummest of them all?”
    3. What about people who are makpid on bein adam l’chaveiro but not on chalav Yisrael or glatt (BTW, some say that the there is too much “glatt” on the market for all of it to be what was once considered glatt_) vs. those who are the opposite? What about the kashrut status of their money?

    #1833018
    rightwriter
    Participant

    Syag-“I have seen guys present themselves as wonderful, straight, serious guys but they forgot that their facebook pages are public. They may think the girls said no out of pickiness, but that’s because they don’t have a clue that they are presenting a very unattractive side of themselves that doesn’t quite match their resume.”

    I don’t mean to be harsh and I don’t speak for myself I speak for many of my friends and good guys out there who don’t even get a chance becaue they don’t meet these flawed “standards” that have been set. Obviously people who deceive others shouldn’t expect. The ones who are real don’t even get a chance. That’s the issue.

    People who are genuine deserve to find someone genuine of course. But the corrupt mindset that unfortunately nowadays most women have, the illogical and unrealistic demands ruin it for everyone including themselves.

    The illusion that everything should be perfect before marriage it’s like what are they thinking? Do people really think if everything is “perfect” before the marriage then it’s a match made in heaven? I mean seriously there is no perfect and marriage is something that both sides work together to keep. The main thing is for the couple to love each other and actually want to stay together not to marry someone who will satisfy the requirements of their parents and shadchan and friends. Yes parents opinion is important and neccessary since they have experience and are on the sidelines can see clearer, but that’s not the issue.

    The issue is the corrupted mindset of women nowadays and then they wonder why they are either divorced or over 30 and alone. These demands have to stop and someone has to educate women/girls (and guys) and remind them of the Torah way and what marriage is really about. Japs will be Japs. But good girls who get influenced by surrounding and result in a corrupted mindset is a shame and really everyone loses out. You are marrying the person who is unique and might be the best person for you. If you want to marry money go get a stack of cash and put a ring on it.

    #1833084
    PuhLease
    Participant

    @rightwriter

    Couples that marry, especially in the religious world, at 17, 18, 19, have NO concept of what love is. A couple that decides to marry should respect and like one another. Love comes later. You are being unrealisitic if you think, even for one moment, that a teenager knows what love is. Respect, they know, enjoying another’s company they know, love, they do not know. Additionally, allow me to remind you that the problem with “standards” and “money” and other such nonsense is a problem with boys and their families too, not just with girls. If there is a shidduch crisis, it is because both the boys and the girls are making it so.

    #1833085
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Rightwriter – same as before. You have had bad experience, you perceive the girls underlying reasons and you go and apply it to a whole group. If I wanted to apply my personal experiences I could do that too. But the fact remains that it goes both ways.
    I know girls who are afraid to commit, who are afraid to put aside the place in life they have earned for themselves and it is unfortunate, they do seem to turn boys away for the wrong reasons.
    When a guy claims he is being turned down because he ‘missed minyan once or twice’, usually he misses a lot more than that but would rather not face it. It’s human nature. So the “reasons” that they think the girl gives looks petty to he who would rather not face them. Also human nature. Few people will admit even to close friends that the girl found some serious painful trends in his dvaykus and cut off the shidduch.

    Expecting perfection? That has been more of a guy issue from all I have seen (tho I will assume it all goes both ways). I have seen girls end shidduchim for the reasons above, even when I personally might have thought they could have discussed it (info I am getting from the shadchan of male family friends, so I know these guys). But the guys have been the ones to say “Nope” from the resume or picture. I have yet to get any questions from the girls side that make me blush as I have from the guys side. (Again, I assume it goes both ways)

    The OP in this thread doesn’t want to know why he can’t find a good shidduch, he wants to know why a cookie cutter BY girl doesn’t want him. If you remove bias and think about the question you will realize it’s ridiculous. And the ongoing rants against single females here is either just what he was looking for, or not, but isn’t fair to people who are being misrepresented or who are buying in to the fiction. This thread is a serious and damaging badmouthing of people who are already suffering from the mouths of the communities they live in.

    #1833074
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Avi – that’s just nuts. You are going to use this opportunity to try to make a point about your hashkofic differences? If only you were willing to afford the tolerance (let alone respect) you are advocating for. If I married in to your family and had to listen to a 24/7 rant about my minhagim and hashkofa I would say that would be enough to build more than just a wedge between a couple. Or would you miraculously stop all conversation, remarks and non verbal gestures cold in their tracks. Marrying people with a similar lifestyle isn’t a put down. The fact that this guy doesn’t seem to want someone like him but only whatever FFB BY girl he can get is just him doing what he is complaining about. Or a troll post. you choose.

    #1833117
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Rightwriter

    I don’t know where to start with your paranoid, misogynistic and ill-informed rant about the “corrupted mindset” and “flawed standards” of young jewish women today,…..so I won’t since I would likely violate both CR editorial standards and allowable length of postings. If a young woman decides a young man is not a good match for her, than she should stay with that decision. Whatever YOU and some of the bochur’s family and friends may think about his virtues are irrelevant. It is only HER standards that count, after she considers the views of all those she trusts. From your rant, it seems the flaws may be closer to home than you may think.

    #1833127
    Workingbochur95
    Participant

    @jjj Please elaborate further, eg which stressors…

    Just to clarify, I would like to know what dafka could possibly go sour in marriages between formerly MOdox bochurim (like my roommates and I) and super Yeshivish girls???

    If the answer is “nothing”, then there is absolutely no reason why these girls should be allowed to turn down myself or my roommates.
    Especially since the value systems of both parties are 100% identical, in spite of the difference in family backgrounds.

    #1833149
    rightwriter
    Participant

    Dorah-“If a young woman decides a young man is not a good match for her, than she should stay with that decision. Whatever YOU and some of the bochur’s family and friends may think about his virtues are irrelevant. It is only HER standards that count, after she considers the views of all those she trusts.”

    -noone is forcing anyone to get to know or marry someone who they don’t want that’s an obvious. What you don’t seem to get is that “HER” standards, are not really her standards. They are standards that were instilled into her mind by others and anything less than that will not work for her.

    And on what bases is a “young woman” deciding that a young man is not a good match for her? Just becaue he doesn’t have a career doesn’t make him a bad guy. Again for those “powerful” women out there who have a career and don’t need a man then good for them. They look for a guy who makes even more than them and end up being his trophy wife which means what it sounds. Maybe they will regret later maybe not but yes, that’s their decision.

    But many girls out there who don’t think that way, think that way nowadays becaue of what their surroundings make them perceive as ‘standards”. So yes when there are such good guys out there who for whatever reason didn’t yet land some career and work hard at a regular job or trade, and are being viewed as unqualified, then we have an issue.

    What’s wrong if someone has a regular stable job. They aren’t worthy of getting married? They don’t deserve someone in their life? Who said they won’t get something better later in life or advance or get a better opportunity? And ehks to say the one with the career won’t lose it? And where do we factor in someone’s personality, caring, respectful, giving,considerate,patient, fun to be around, attentive and so on?

    My point isnt that everyone should settle for what they don’t want. My point is that many are skipping over quality unique individuals becaue they “think” they will be settling since the false standards have been established.

    And for the comment about love comes after. I never said love at first sight where did I write that? Obviously it comes after and you build towards it which strengthens my point about how many girls are taught that perfection should be strived for before you even get married, and that could not be further from reality. Your list of pre-qualifications and standards can be thrown out the window. Many who think they got perfect are deeply disappointed shortly after. And the other way around.

    #1833158
    Avi K
    Participant

    Syag, you need a remedial reading course. The O.P. dos have a similar hashkafa to the girls in question. If you would not be a baal gaava about your minhagim you would not hear a rant. Chumrot are supposed to be kept to yourself. In fact, Rav Abramsky ceased to hear the Megilla read on the 15th (in deference to Rav Tukachinsky’s opinion regardiing samuch v’nireh in the New City of Jerusalem) when someone told an acquaintance outside the immediate family.

    #1833174
    hml
    Participant

    My daughter is taller than her husband. One son married a girl older than he. If these girls reject good bochurim because of such stupid narishkeit, then they deserve to sit and wait. Get real, there is a major problem and you need to adjust your priorities if you want to build a bayit ne’eman b’Yisroel..

    #1833186
    rightwriter
    Participant

    ” Whatever YOU and some of the bochur’s family and friends may think about his virtues are irrelevant. It is only HER standards that count, after she considers the views of all those she trusts.”

    Well you know what Dorah- next time you complain about a bochir rejecting a girl especially based on how she looks, remember it’s HIS standards that count. What you think of that girl means nothing. Especially since she won’t suddenly change to become beautiful. But a guy on the other hand can become a millionaire the next day so if anything, most reasons that women have are so senseless because they base mostly on money to define the person. I’m sure even if the guy isn’t such a good guy but leaves a money trail everywhere he goes,”HER” standards will suddenly drop by a longshot so let’s not kid ourselves. Suddenly midos, and personality won’t matter so much. Everything is great!

    And if you have any problem with a guy not being able to or wanting to force himself to marry somoen he isn’t attracted to, then I suggest you take a course to rewire your perception of how things work.

    #1833229
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    rightwriter – you are making no sense at all. So the ultra cookie cutter FFB BY girl doesn’t like you because you don’t have a good enough career? I think you need to wait a bit from this last experience you may have had or witnessed and post when you are calm.
    And here’s a tip for ya – if you think your experiences can be generalized into all the girls out there, no matter how many you have seen, you are doing yourself a huge disservice. Ask an adult in your life if your self perception matches your reality, and how it compares to what the girls are thinking. It may not be what you think it is. And if this stuff you are screaming about is all you see around you, you may need to find a different group to hang out with.

    #1833231
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    in answer to a few of your questions (if you are really asking and not telling…):
    And on what bases is a “young woman” deciding that a young man is not a good match for her?
    differs for each. Sometimes values differ. Sometimes he has expectations she can’t meet. Sometimes his idea of ‘family’ is very different than hers.

    What’s wrong if someone has a regular stable job. They aren’t worthy of getting married?

    I would doubt anyone said that. But does that obligate each girl to be the one to marry you?

    They don’t deserve someone in their life?

    Of course they do. Try looking for that person instead of being mad that the one YOU picked wasn’t her.
    Who said they won’t get something better later in life or advance or get a better opportunity? And ehks to say the one with the career won’t lose it?

    Ive never heard this used as an excuse to turn someone down so I can’t comment

    And where do we factor in someone’s personality, caring, respectful, giving,considerate,patient, fun to be around, attentive and so on?

    exactly my point. Who ever said that that wasn’t the reason for the “no” in the first place. And why can’t someone look for the person who has the nature they are looking for without being accused of being petty, materialistic, money hungry and everything else you called her….

    #1833248
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    woah Avi – thanks for proving my point. I wouldn’t subject anyone’s daughter to be spoken to that way for the next 80 years of her life. Unless of course you have a son who knows enough to keep his distance as well.

    #1833316
    PuhLease
    Participant

    @Workingbochur95
    There are so many things that are absurd regarding your statement that I’m not even sure where to start… but I will attempt to do so. To start with, allow me to reiterate what you you stated earlier…
    ********************************************
    “Just to clarify, I would like to know what dafka could possibly go sour in marriages between
    formerly MOdox bochurim (like my roommates and I) and super Yeshivish girls???

    If the answer is “nothing”, then there is absolutely no reason why these girls should be allowed to
    turn down myself or my roommates.
    Especially since the value systems of both parties are 100% identical, in spite of the difference in
    family backgrounds.”
    ****************************************************************
    I was going to write a list of all the things that can possibly go wrong between a bochur (or any man really) that talks to a shtender for 18 years, which hopefully doesn’t talk back, and a girl, no matter what the background, but let’s just say someone from a very similar background, but she actually has the power of speech, but I ran out of paper. Being all of the ripe old age of between 23 and 25, and wisely, aged, and worldly, one must presume that you know all and see all. Thus, perhaps allow me to respectfully postulate that people change… all the time. This, there are no two people who are so perfect in similarity and background that there are never any problems. To simply name one: The concept that a 23-25 year old boy thinks that when he marries the “right” girl from the “right” background, there will not be any problems. Give me a moment to catch my breath while laughing manically.

    Then I started to write a list of the difficulties that two people, ANY two people from simllar backgrounds but raised in different homes, and I ran out of notebooks, so I started writing on the walls.

    Then I started to write a list of why your question is so ridiculous and the use of the sentence “there is absolutely no reason girls should be allowed to turn down myself or my roommates”. I’m sorry, are you looking for a wife or a farm animal? What do you mean “ALLOWED”. Even during bibilical times, women had the CHOICE when it came to whom they wanted to marry.

    At that point, I thought to myself the following. You are between TWENTY THREE and TWENTY FIVE. You are BABIES, and certainly completely and wholly unprepared to marry and have a family, God help you. Your expectations are completely asinine and unrealistic, and I actually feel extreme sympathy for your future wives, and your mothers (since you learned those idiotic ideas from somewhere), and third, I will now pray daily that neither of my children marry into your families. Mentchlechkeit is worth millions more than the most money in the world.

    #1833414
    Workingbochur95
    Participant

    “Allowed” is an appropriate loshon bedieved the shidduch crisis.
    If this was YOUR daughter, would YOU ALLOW HER to turn down a bochur for a shidduch simply because she didn’t like that his parents were not the same hashkafa as you?? Why or why not?

    #1833471
    PuhLease
    Participant

    @workingbochur

    Not only would I ALLOW her to turn down such a shidduch, I would ENCOURAGE it. Better single and happy than married and treated like cattle.

    #1833488
    Avi K
    Participant

    Syag, if she speaks the way you do I would not want anyone’s son to marry her.

    PuhLease, the are treating the guys like dogs, looking into their pedigrees. Would you encourage your daughter to marry Moshe Rabbenu’s grandson or Rabbenu Gershom’s son? What about Shemaya, Avtalyon, Rabbi Akiva, Onkelos, Rabbi Meir, etc. for that matter, Rav Ovadia’s father was a simple Jew.

    #1833491
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    None of us are complaining about their backgrounds. These boys have made themselves unappealing though their attitude, outlook, word choice, perception of selves and others and seeming inability to accept and respond to other’s feedback. The idea that anyone can think these responses are because of their parents and not themselves just supports our claim that perhaps there is more to the lack of dates

    #1833495
    PuhLease
    Participant

    @Syaglchochma
    Couldn’t have said it better myself.

    @AviK I come from a “pedigreed” background,a HIGH pedigreed background, and yet, the people from said background act like animals, treat others with disdain and disrespect, are frequent Lashon Horah and Rechilus speakers, throw money around to get unethical and often illegal acts committed, and in general do not behave in a manner that befits a ben torah of ANY pedigree, it sickens me. But that’s neither here, nor there. I don’t give two hoots about pedigree if it doesn’t come with an entree of decency and character. Not an appetiser, not a side dish, but an ENTREE.

    In fact, regardless of WHO my child chooses, so long as he or she has a decent character, respects their elders, knows how to behave around others (especially on Purim), is kind to strangers, children, animals and “serving staff i.e. janitors etc., I would encourage a marriage. As long as that person, whomever they may be, is a mentch par excellence, I’m perfectly ok with that.

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by .
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by .
    #1833553
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Final Thought: If she/he is old enough to marry, than have confidence in their judgements regarding the person they wish to marry or decide is not their beschert. All these silly comment about “girls being brainswashed’ or having “flawed standards” imposed on them by their friends and the tzibur are really irrelevant. If in doubt, DON’T.

    #1833586
    rightwriter
    Participant

    Syag-“exactly my point. Who ever said that that wasn’t the reason for the “no” in the first place. And why can’t someone look for the person who has the nature they are looking for without being accused of being petty, materialistic, money hungry and everything else you called her….”

    Well it’s pretty easy to tell that it wasn’t the reason in the first place seeing how most girls first question is what do you do, and if they aren’t happy with the answer the conversation is over. So ya there isn’t even a chance to get to know the person. And let’s be real, if the guy is swimming in cash and shows up in a nice new car, suddenly it’s much easier to accept everything else.

    Syag, not sure how you perceive things, but finding a person with the right “nature” doesn’t mean how much he makes and what lineage he has. And if you were really looking for someone with the right “nature”, your first question wouldn’t be, “so what do you do”?

    #1833714
    Workingbochur95
    Participant

    @Puhleaze, in what way do you feel that your daughter having Left Wing Modox machtonim is a form of being treated like cattle???? Please elaborate.

    #1833734
    PuhLease
    Participant

    @Workingbochur95

    Reading is such a vital part of education… perhaps the co-ed school you went to did not adequately educate you. I did not say one single word about having any specific type of machtonim has diddly to do with cattle. My comment about being treated like cattle was on the “presumption” that a parent would or would not “allow” a child to turn down a date. I sincerely hope that by the time you reach a true age of wisdom, you never force your child to go out with anyone… and if you will notice, I did specifically state “why these girls should be allowed to turn down” ALLOWED???? You put a ring through the nose of a COW in order to force them to go where you want them to go. Girls, are not COWS.

    #1834031
    interjection
    Participant

    “in what way do you feel that your daughter having Left Wing Modox machtonim is a form of being treated like cattle????”

    I didn’t see anything in pulease’s comments implying that she (I’m assuming female but you can correct me ) was referring to MO. You asked if she would allow her child to turn down a shidduch of someone who is of a DIFFERENT hashkafa than her own.

    By the time a child is ready to get married, if parents think they can forbid their child from marrying who they wish, then the parents are the ones who need a wakeup call. At that stage parents can guide and recommend but their child is a grown up and will ultimately make their own decision.

    Personally, I believe that someone who is only comfortable with people of their own type, meaning people they are used to, will not be compatible with someone from a different background. They will not be able to relate to them and therefore they are not a good shidduch.

    If someone doesn’t feel compatible to marry someone else, it doesn’t mean that they dont like them or that they think they are better. It ONLY means that they are not compatible to marry them. Marriage is a huge decision and no one should choose a marriage partner whom they do not understand nor someone whom they feel will not understand them.

    That being said, I am from a very yeshivish family and my in laws are MO. I would not recommend the same for some of my other siblings. The fact that I was able to blend in and feel comfortable around my in laws doesn’t mean that anyone else is wrong for not feeling as comfortable making such a choice.

    #1834063
    PuhLease
    Participant

    @interjection
    I took umbrage with the fact that this 23-25 year old little pisher seems to think that the girls should”not be allowed” to turn down dates with them.
    Not be allowed?? Seriously? How very absolutely absurd. You aren’t married at 25? Big deal! Maybe you’re not meant to marry at that age, and just because a girl reaches an advanced age and is not married yet, or is divorced does not necessarily mean there is a problem with her. Sometimes, things are just not meant to be. But, for a 25 year old, someone who is just barely legally permitted to buy alcohol, to pass judgement on other people who are not yet married is insulting… which could ALSO be why he is not married yet.

    #1834487
    Workingbochur95
    Participant

    @Puhlease You are not answering the question in context.
    By “allowed”, I was suggesting that these girls are being indoctrinated into believing
    that it is better to remain single at 24/25
    than it is for them to date ex-MOdox bochurim who are interested in them.

    Please stop fixating on that minor loshon, and focus on the object reality:
    These girls are WILLFULLY keeping themselves single, simply because they don’t like the one fact that these bochurim who are interested in dating them happened to have grown up in MO homes,
    despite learning in yeshivos which are closer to these girls’ hashkafos in more recent years….

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