How many wives?

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  • #604746

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    After carefully reading today’s parsha, I believe we can clearly see a message which is applicable in today’s shidduch and sholom bayis crisis times.

    The passuk says: ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??????. When a man marries a woman… he will hate her. But, ?? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?????. When a man will have two wives, he will love one and hate one.

    So we see: If you have one wife, you will hate her; if you have two wives, you will love one and hate one. The only way to have one which you love is to have two.

    ????

    #1003383

    vochindik
    Member

    For Ashkenazim, Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom expired. For Sephardim, they never had any prohibition to marry two wives.

    #1003384

    WIY
    Member

    How many girls today would be maskim to such a deal? (maybe a few desperate ones with really low self esteem who you will probably end up hating anyways.)

    #1003385

    vochindik
    Member

    WIY: A lot more than you think. For one, there is a shidduch crisis, where there are more girls in the shidduch market than guys. This is due to the age gap. And multiple wives is a good solution to the age gap crisis. And it will help many girls get married, where they otherwise could never have married.

    #1003386

    oomis
    Participant

    And if you read the passuk further, if he takes more than one wife, he must treat both equally. Given today’s economy, where many men cannot manage to support even ONE wife, I highly doubt the shidduch crisis will be solved by his marrying two. It’s HIS chiyuv to support her, not vice versa. (And snuah does not mean hate, it means loves less in the context of the Torah

    #1003387

    vochindik
    Member

    The rich could marry more than one wife.

    #1003388

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Given today’s economy, where many men cannot manage to support even ONE wife…

    Well, I’d pay someone to take my wife off my hands.

    #1003389

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    I think the point here is that you will only love the second person you marry. So the logical thing to do here is to get married, divorce straighaway, and marry the next at your leisure.

    #1003390

    vochindik
    Member

    The pasuk says you need two wives; not a second wife.

    #1003391

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Oh yeah? Then why does the passuk say “ha’achas” by each, eh?

    #1003392

    cv
    Participant

    It is a good idea for a man, who wants to learn full time – he will have 2 fathers-in-law to support him.

    #1003393

    iced
    Member

    The Vilna Gaon said two of his biggest goals was to restore daily Birkas Kohanim and to restore polygamy. The Gaon said doing so would bring the geula closer.

    #1003394

    oomis
    Participant

    Then why does the passuk say “ha’achas” by each, eh? “

    Exactly.

    To teach us that each wife is to be treated as an individual wife, no matter what his feelings are for one over the other. If he builds a house for one, he must build a house for the second one as well.

    #1003395

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    If you have two, it’s obvious that you hated the first. Why else would you take another?

    #1003396

    iced
    Member

    HaLeiVi: If he hated the first he could (and should) of divorced her. Since he didn’t, clearly he loves both (or all three, etc.)

    #1003397

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Haleivi: That sounds like doubling down on a bad bet to me. If you buy an ice cream sundae and don’t like it, do you buy a second?

    #1003398

    HaLeiVi
    Participant
    #1003399

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    beautiful diyuk pba,

    in addition the baal haturim says over there that the reason is because of “marbeh nashim marbeh kishufim,” therefore it goes to show that the only way you’ll love your wife is through kishuf

    #1003400

    WIY
    Member

    Iced

    You have a source for this Gaon?

    #1003401

    iced
    Member

    Personally, I think that if some people had two wives they’d be more tolerant of both than they’d be with only one. Kind of like when someone is an only child his parents are often demanding of perfection; whereas with multiple children parents are often more tolerant of each child.

    Also, I think Hashem allowed men to have more than one wife for a reason. They often need it.

    #1003402

    smartcookie
    Member

    Why somebody would want 2 shviggers is beyond me.

    #1003403

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    iced: But moshiach will come in a dor shekuloh chayav, no? So obviously the only thing that makes sense is to willfully disregard the Gra’s intentions (since it’s pretty cear that we won’t be getting through on kuloh zakah).

    #1003404

    iced
    Member

    During his lifetime, the Gaon tried to implement both the restoration of daily Birchas Kohanim (which was succesfully implemented by his talmidim in Ertez Yisroel after his petira) and the restoration of polygamy. I’ll try to find the Sefer.

    #1003405

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Why somebody would want 2 shviggers is beyond me.

    I don’t know about you, but I happen to love my in-laws dearly. If there were more people like my mother-in-law, the world would be a much better place.

    The Wolf

    #1003406

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I guess this is further proof that I am a rasha, because even if polygyny were permitted, I would not want more than one wife. I’m *very* happy with my wife and would not want another under any circumstances.

    The Gaon said doing so would bring the geula closer.

    I guess that means that according to the Gaon, I’d be putting my own happiness ahead of the geula. Further proof (this time from the Gaon himself) that I’m a despicable, selfish person who puts his own wants in front of the needs of the tzibbur.

    The Wolf

    #1003407

    WIY
    Member

    I love the originality Popa.

    #1003408

    iced
    Member

    Ma’aseh Rav Hashalem. (Page 276.) He says that if it would help if he would stop learning Torah (!!) and davening (!!) so he could go from city to city to get polygamy and birchas kohanim reinstated, he would do so. That’s how strongly he felt about the benefits of it.

    #1003409

    oomis
    Participant

    HaLeiVi: If he hated the first he could (and should) of divorced her. Since he didn’t, clearly he loves both (or all three, etc.) “

    The Torah is not speaking about hatred. It is talking about a man who simply loves one wife more than the other. If the Torah meant to talk about real animosity (and it DOES deal with that), it speaks to the issue of a man finding something “unseemly” in his wife, and therefore should give her a sefer kritut (GET). But when it speaks about the isha senuah, it is not what we think it means, i.e. that he actually HATES her. He does not hate her, he just favors the other wife more. So the Torah is teaching us that in such a case, if the senuah has the first child (a male), THAT is his bechor, regardless of how he feels about the mother.

    #1003410

    REALIST
    Member

    What was the reason for the cheirem in the first place?

    #1003411

    WIY
    Member

    iced

    Wow incredible! I wonder if he would still say this bezman hazeh?

    #1003413

    Iced Wrote:

    The Vilna Gaon said two of his biggest goals was to restore daily Birkas Kohanim and to restore polygamy. The Gaon said doing so would bring the geula closer.

    However I see that GR”A was quite stringent regarding polygamy, as follows:

    ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???

    ???? ??

    ??] ?? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????, ????? ?????, ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????, ?? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???????, ??? ???? ??? ?? ????????. ???: ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?’ ???? ????? ???????, ???? ?? ???? ?’ ???? (?”? ???

    ????? ??”? ???? ?”? /?”?/).

    ????? ???”? ???? ??? ???? ???

    [??] ?? ?? ??’ ???? ??’. ??? ??? ??”? ??”? ?????? (?”? ?’) ?”? ???? ????? ????? ??’ ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ????

    ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???????? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??”? ??”? ???? (?”? ?’ ??

    ????? ??’ ??? ??????) ??’ ???? ???? ??’ ???”? ??’ ?”? ???”?:

    ****

    #1003414

    vochindik
    Member

    There are Teimanim today that have more than one wife.

    #1003415

    yaakov doe
    Participant

    The more the merrier, especially if all the inlaws are supporting and all of the wives working. Those lucky Sfardim!

    #1003416

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I (and midwesterner) heard several roshei yeshiva speak today, including Rav Malkiel. One of them (I forget which) quoted the Alter fun slabodka saying that ?? ??? ???? ????, that when you give your daughter to someone, you must check that he is a mensch (ish means mench).

    Now, the rest of the passuk is that this mensch hated her so much that he is making a false and malicious taanas besulim. So you see apparently that when a man gets married, even if he is mensch, it is normal that he will hate her so much that he will make false and malicious taanas besulim. Apparently.

    #1003417

    “If there were more people like my mother-in-law, the world would be a much better place.”

    But that is something totally different. If more people in the world WERE your mother in law the world would still be pretty much the same, just holidays for you would be more hectic.

    #1003418

    midwesterner
    Participant

    Yes I was there. Sorry I had to leave in the middle of the most entertaining speaker!!

    I do remember the vort from the Alter. I think the one who said it was the host rosh yeshiva. I can’t promise it was him, because there were so many that rolled one into the other, so I may be confusing them. But I don’t remember that follow up!

    #1003419

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    No, I thought up the follow up. And yes, I do recall now that it was the host rosh yeshiva.

    #1003420

    shlishi
    Member

    Now someone needs to figure out which Rosh Yeshiva hosted Rav Malkiel in Chicago, Sunday 9/2/12… Anyone?

    #1003421

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I’m sure a cursory reading of the hamodia or yated this week will solve the mystery. No secrets here.

    #1003422

    shlishi
    Member

    So why all the coded language purposefully avoiding rabbinical names?

    #1003423

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Because some people will get hanaa from figuring it out themselves, and I don’t want to be ??? ????? ???

    #1003424

    midwesterner
    Participant

    Who said anything about Chicago?

    #1003426

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I’m always saying something about Chicago but not necessarily in this context.

    #1003427

    computerbagels
    Participant

    It seems that even way back when it wasn’t so preferable to take a second wife. In Rus, when Ploni Almoni is offered to marry Rus, he refuses, saying “Pen Ashchis Es Nachalasi”. The Targum explains this to mean that he doesn’t want to destroy his marriage by taking another wife.

    #1003428

    Showjoe
    Member

    getting back on topic, the gemara says that “Rav Yehudah in the name of Rav, who says that forty days before the creation of the embryo a Bas Kol issues forth and pronounces his Zivug (“Bas Ploni l’Ploni”)”(sotah daf bais) so i was wondreing how can it be if there are not a even amount of boys and girls? obviously men are meant to have multiple wives.

    #1003429

    iced
    Member

    The Cherem was established because the goyim were persecuting the Yidden since the goyim were jealous Yidden could have more than one wife, while the goyim’s religion prevented them from doing so. (Limiting to one wife is inheritantly a Christian value, not a Jewish one.)

    Which is also why the Cherem was only accepted by Yidden in Christian lands, while the Sephardim and other non-Ashkenazim (i.e. Teimanim) never accepted the Cherem and continued to be allowed to have multiple wives.

    Now that Christian persecution of Jews is B”H mostly a thing of the past, I don’t see why we couldn’t do so again today. (BTW, the Fundamentalist Mormons openly practice polygamy in America today. They even have a tv show about one such family. Mitt Romney is a regular Mormon, and his great grandparents were polygamists.)

    #1003430

    WIY
    Member

    “Bas Ploni l’Ploni” I think we have a Raaya that a boy can marry a girl whose father has the same name as he does.

    #1003431

    Curiosity
    Participant

    Even the people in Yemen only married two wives in special situations, like if the first wife was barren and the husband hasn’t been yotzei the mitzvah of pru urvu. Other situations include if the husband was an “agun” bc his wife went missing, or if someone was phenomenally rich. You have to supply each wife equally. That means a house for each one, and equal standard of living for each. Why would any normal man even want the burden of multiple wives nowadays?

    #1003433

    Sam2
    Participant

    Iced: Source that it was because of Christian persecution? See the Gemara in the end of Yevamos which says that it’s Assur to marry a second wife without the first’s permission. The Gemara in Pesachim also says that two wives is a bad idea. It’s fairly clear that the vast majority only married 1 wife even in the time of Chazal.

    Also, that’s a lie about Mormons. The Mormon Church completely outlawed polygamy at the turn of the 20th century.

    #1003434

    vochindik
    Member

    Curiosity: Because of the benefits?

    Sam2: Google Mormon fundamentalist. They still marry multiple wives.

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