January 31, 2012 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #601852
Today I redd a great shidduch for a friend of mine’s brother, He’s learning so he wants someone who can support/parents will help out.
On average how much does it cost? It’s prob. a lot higher than when I was newlywed.
and if the girl isn’t so sure how manage supporting should I forget about it and think of other girls for him?January 31, 2012 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #853845ED IT ORParticipant
wow rubberbands you seem to bee involved in all aspects of peoples relationships!January 31, 2012 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #853846artchillParticipant
Is it the same friend that is arranging the stalking ceremony? 🙂January 31, 2012 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #853847squeakParticipant
It costs whatever you write on the dotted line. Seriously, a couple could live on next to nothing or in the style to which they were accustomed before marriage.February 1, 2012 2:00 am at 2:00 am #853848
so does that mean when they ask me about support should i say well there are people who live on nothing and are fine if this isn’t how you see yourself living then i wont set it up.
or should i say go out and find out if your interested and then figure out the money business.February 1, 2012 4:20 am at 4:20 am #853849RABBAIMParticipant
I wonder if he is ready to borrow it to pay back in 25 years. That should be a litmus test of his real attitude towards learning!February 1, 2012 5:31 am at 5:31 am #853850bochur22Participant
i have asked many young couples,” what’s the cost to live per month, for the first few years of marriage? (in israel) ” obviously, the answers were totally dependent on the lifestyle’s that each couple lived. basically, a couple living a very basic lifestyle,( no meat on shabbos, rarely going out to eat, ETC) should cost $2500 per month. if a couple lives a higher lifestyle,(meat on shabbos, inviting boys or girls over for shabbos, going out to eat at least one or two times a week) should cost $3000 a month. If a couple wants to live a very opulent lifestyle that’s going to cost $4000 a month. Everything is dependent on the lifestyle that your child or your son in-law is used to.February 1, 2012 5:45 am at 5:45 am #853851bochur22Participant
now, personally i feel, that the only people that should be sitting and learning and getting supported are the first category $2500 per month, because like we all know ” pas b’melach tochal ” and if you decide to choose a life of learning, kol hakavod!!! but don”t god forbid be a burden on your parents or in’laws!!!! this whole idea that since i can sit and learn for about 6 hours a day i deserve to get $36000 a year of support, is a brand new concept and do not think for one second, that if Chazal came down right now and looked at this whole system in place ( parents having the obligation to promise to support their kids so they can learn) that they would be happy, they definitely would not be happy, they surely would be horrified!!!!! If i can summarize this trend that is going on in our yeshivas today in one word, it would be “ENTITLEMENT” which by-the-way leads to dependency!!!!February 1, 2012 8:10 am at 8:10 am #853852babygooseParticipant
Bochur 22 i’d say you’re pretty accurate. i know couples who live a regular lifestyle finishing the month easily but with no extras at $2000.
but take into account tickets for going back for yomim tovim. also not very cheap.February 1, 2012 9:36 am at 9:36 am #853853zeena.kastaMember
It is wonderful that there are a lot of men learning, but in these trying times we also need to earn our own parnasa, without putting our parents under strain. It is in fact a mitzvah to earn a parnasa and supporting a family, if only we could do both.February 1, 2012 11:17 am at 11:17 am #853854
im doing it- bare minimum-under 2 grand. and we make seudos for bochurim. but we only eat chicken once a week. so its a give and take. but BH its amazing.February 1, 2012 12:35 pm at 12:35 pm #853855YitBMember
We live off $1500 a month (sometimes even less), although most of our weekday meals are supplied by the Yeshiva.February 1, 2012 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #853856whatrutalkingabtMember
I’m doing it too – it costs us abt $2,000 a month. And I feel like we have everything we needFebruary 1, 2012 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #853857
Bare necessities in Israel is no less than $9000 a month. (Yes, that was $, not ??.)(Yes, that was a ??? ??? symbol; just pretend they are superimposed on each other.)
Anyone who will not give that much to their daughter and son in law either hates the Torah, or hates their kids. Probably both.February 1, 2012 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #853858
“this whole idea that since i can sit and learn for about 6 hours a day i deserve to get $36000 a year of support, is a brand new concept”
This past Sunday we received a call inquiring if the father of a certain was willing to commit support of $50,000 a year for 5 years.
(The girls father replied, yes, on the condition he tells me what hishtadlus he has done, or plans on doing, for years 6 and beyond.)February 1, 2012 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #853859mazal77Participant
This my folks is the reason for the shidduch crisis. We did not have these kind of situations 20 years ago.February 1, 2012 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #853860enlightenedjewMember
Too much for any normal family to bear. Tell him to get a job.February 1, 2012 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #853861mazal77Participant
I was talking with someone who has a daughter in the parasha and she told me, that before even the date begins, is asked about “support”
When I was going out, there was no such thing as parental support. We worked and could not ever imagine asking my parents, or his parent for help.February 1, 2012 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #853862not IMember
In America it is easier to find a job. In America $2000 is enough but there wouldn’t be much to put away after car insurance, groceries, babysitting, rent & utilities.
I think that in EY the life is definitely beautiful but without a job it is hard for the wife and a tighter budget would have to do.February 1, 2012 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #853863
If the girl wants a learner they’re expected to support, yes the mothers like to know before they say yes to a date. That’s how it is, Seems like around 2000-3000 depending on the month, right?
It’s funny someone said this is causing a shidduch crisis. I don’t think so if this is the lifestyle the couple wants and the parents support them it’s fine. if they can’t support then the girls will marry working boys or the girls can support (if she can).February 1, 2012 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #853864
Can someone put together a list of monthly expenses for a couple that requires $3000 a month?February 1, 2012 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #853865onlytruthMember
It’s a big problem! because these days boys that work tend to be a very different type than boys that learn (yeshivish wise)…so what is a girl supposed to do if she is on the level of marrying a learning boy but her parents don’t have money to support her???February 1, 2012 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #853866gavra_at_workParticipant
Depends on the cost of apartment, which depends on where you live. A couple in Ofakim will need much less than a couple in Arzei.February 1, 2012 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #853867
Can someone put together a list of monthly expenses for a couple that requires $3000 a month?
Health insurance- 700
Notice they haven’t even bought a toothbrush yet. I guess they could buy it out of miscellaneous, but then how will they buy a new buspass.February 1, 2012 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #853868
rent- minimum, really low 850-1000. if in yerushalayim, i dont mean givat zeev or ramot.
every shabbos-around 75-100
bills- depends on what you have but between bezeq, chashmal,gichon, etc.-300.
groceries, clothes, toiletries-depends.
eating out once a month
and then IY”H you have a kid.February 1, 2012 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #853869OneOfManyParticipant
I’m curious…do people factor in the income the girl will be generating when they talk about “support,” or are they just looking at her parents’ assets?February 1, 2012 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #853870
pops- health insurance gets covered by bituach li’umi, ends up being less thenm that in sheqel. probably 250-300 sheq.February 1, 2012 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #853871akupermaParticipant
The minimum wage in the United States is roughly $15000 a year, of which at least 7% goes to taxes. This comes to about $300/week. Once you get a family, various “entitlements” kick in.
Of course, if one’s interest in learning Torah requires a lifestyle more fitting of the legendary “one percent”, you are probably in the wrong line of work.February 1, 2012 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #853872
“because these days boys that work tend to be a very different type than boys that learn (yeshivish wise).”
Can you elaborate, especially on “yeshivish wise”?February 2, 2012 12:38 am at 12:38 am #853873
I agree that a couple must be on the page hashkafa wise, there are great working guys out there,tell the people you network with /shadchanim that you want a learner-earner—
it might not be as common place-since guys are encouraged to stay in learning until marriage (or in order to get a “good shidduch”)
If you feel that you must marry a learning guy go ahead but try to figure out how you’ll support it could come from a combo of his parents/yours and you as well.
Girls can be very creative in finding ways to support.February 2, 2012 9:14 am at 9:14 am #853874
If anyone wants i’m happy to provide a breakdown of what things usually cost……February 2, 2012 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #853875
As a mother of boys and girls I find it shocking and faintly repulsive that someone would actively seek a shidduch who can give them ” support” on a monthly basis. I give support to the ill, weak and infirm, those unable to help themselves.
How on earth can a couple build a truly Jewish home with proper values when the first precondition on the chattan’s shopping list was someone able to give him support?! When my ( yeshivish) eldest son got engaged he was offered financial assistance from his future-in-laws and told them politely no thank you, he will provide for his family. Learnt in kollel and studied for a qualification to support his wife and child. Still attends daily shiurium but pays his own way. He has semicha and a honours degree, it can be done. He is not the only one, shameful to ask parents to support a son-in-law, shameful to reduce a young Jewish bride to a meal ticket.February 2, 2012 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #853876onlytruthMember
apushatayid, what I meant was that learning boys tend to be more yeshivish than working boys…so if a girl is yeshivish but doesn’t have money…February 2, 2012 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #853877
When my ( yeshivish) eldest son got engaged he was offered financial assistance from his future-in-laws and told them politely no thank you, he will provide for his family. Learnt in kollel and studied for a qualification to support his wife and child.
Yes, and how did he live while he was “learn[ing] in kollel and stud[ying] for a qualification…”?
These are the choices:
A. He or she had significant savings. From where?
B. You supported him.
C. His wife worked.
D. His kollel paid well.
E. He borrowed money.
So, tell us which one it was, and we’ll see if that is possible for everyone.February 2, 2012 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #853878ED IT ORParticipant
and rent is not the only thing gone up in recent times.February 2, 2012 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #853879February 2, 2012 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #853880
All our kids take out student loans the rates of interest of which are usually quite favourable to the student and most of all teach the student the importance of standing on their own two feet and making a committment to their future. Sure kollel payments help too as are applying for available scholarships. We as parents know our duty to our kids to make them independent and self reliant. Not easy. All my kids have part time jobs. They also do not select brides on the basis of financial support. Now my eldest work they are able to pay loans
back quite comfortably. Why? They are all qualified and in paid employment.February 2, 2012 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #853882
All our kids take out student loans the rates of interest of which are usually quite favourable to the student.
I see. That means they are only able to take the loans because they are also in a college program, which means they could not learn full time for even one year. I am not criticizing (yet); merely making explicit.
Also, the current interest rates on unsubsidized student loans is about 8%. That means it doubles after 9 years (72/8=9). Just making that explicit as well.February 2, 2012 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #853883
Absolutely right Popa!
We paid for our kids to study in Erez Yisrael post sems and yeshivas full time for two year, expensive but a precious experience for us. Then if the boys wanted to do kollel, reality kicks in, marriage means responsibility and caring for another, not expecting them to care for you. There are many student programs that permit part time study, many kollels that understand their avreichim might do night school or external degrees. There are in Jerusalem a number of places that combine Torah learning with vocational or academic secular studies.
If my sons are old enough to marry they must be old enough to support themselves and their brides. I would be deeply ashamed if my sons actively seek support from their young brides and their families. What has happened to integrity and self respect?February 2, 2012 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #853884
There are in Jerusalem a number of places that combine Torah learning with vocational or academic secular studies.
Careful Tahini. Under your plan, those are not options. You are not going to be eligible for federal student loans in many of those places.
We paid for our kids to study in Erez Yisrael post sems and yeshivas full time for two year, expensive but a precious experience for us.
You did? And here I thought you were principled. Turns out, you don’t think it is wrong for a parent to support their child in learning torah, you just think that 2 years is the correct amount. Well, I think 10 years is the correct amount.
We aren’t very far from each other. We both agree to the basic premise: that parents should support their children while they study torah. We only differ in degree.February 2, 2012 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #853885golden momMember
it just amazes me that some of these couples “who need more” are living hire standards then some of us who work hard and are not learning now who has money or time to go out to eat once a wk and y does a parent have to pay for thatFebruary 2, 2012 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #853886sem graduateMember
I do NOT live on a very high standard…
my living expenses in Israel come out to:
$1,500 – rent
500 shekel a week fruits/veges/groceries
200 shekel a week fish/chicken
150 shekel a week misc.(toothpaste, shampoo…)
then we have monthly bills (bezeq, electric, water etc.) that amount to aprox.1000 shekelFebruary 2, 2012 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #853887ddMember
I must live on a different planet. I earn a very good living, but there is no way that I would ever pay $2K per month so that a son in law could sit in kollel. (I have girls that are approaching the age.)
My kesuba says that I would support my wife, and I expect that my son in law will support his wife. Just like the vast majority of Torah Jews (including rabbanim, chazal, etc.) of the past. This modern idea that a young man shouldn’t earn a living is beyond absurd. It’s horrible middos.
Indeed, if someone came to me with a shidduch for my daughter that included a demand for money, I would tell them to get lost. I’m not interested in a son in law that has such low values that he would date my daughter only if I promised money.
Since I earn a decent living, I would be happy to help my children if they need it. But the idea is that they would do their best, and I would be the safety net. It’s b’dieved not l’chatchilah.February 2, 2012 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #853888agittayidParticipant
“..We aren’t very far from each other. We both agree to the basic premise: that parents should support their children while they study torah. We only differ in degree…”
The number of years of support is irrelevant; it’s the values being promoted. One believes is teaching their children independence, self-sufficiency, and the responsibility of caring for others; the other is inuring their children to dependency and being taken care of.February 2, 2012 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #853889sem graduateMember
My husband did not request support – I was looking for a learning boy and wanted to live in Israel where I knew I would not have a job – therefore my father offered support. The boy did not demand it – I offered it.February 2, 2012 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #853890
“..We aren’t very far from each other. We both agree to the basic premise: that parents should support their children while they study torah. We only differ in degree…”
The number of years of support is irrelevant; it’s the values being promoted. One believes is teaching their children independence, self-sufficiency, and the responsibility of caring for others; the other is inuring their children to dependency and being taken care of.
Meheicha teisi? Where did you see in my comments that I don’t believe in teaching children independence, self sufficiency, and the responsibility of caring for others. That is a ridiculous charge to make.
And someone who doesn’t believe in supporting their kids after high school at all, would accuse you of the same thing. People who live in grass houses shouldn’t stow thrones.February 3, 2012 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #853891cherrybimParticipant
Tahini and dd, you are the voices of reason here. Unless someone is 24/7 masmid material, which the vast majority are not, why should a capable non-worker be supported? That’s not how Hashem is m’shadich z’vugos.
Where is the m’siras nefesh for learning? One can learn at least 2 hours before work, during the ride to/from work, and several hours after work? There is more learning yomam v’laila being done this way by working learners than most of those that are supported. Take away the coffee, cigarette, and cell phone breaks from the supported learners and that more than evens the learning time playing field.
But, there is a catch; you have to wake up when it’s still dark outside and there is no batalah permitted. And the end result is that you grow in learning, and you feel good about yourself and you make everyone proud.February 3, 2012 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #853892BowwowParticipant
cherrybim- well said, bravo!February 4, 2012 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #853894aidel_maidelParticipant
I dont get it… to all those that the whole ‘support’ situation is making you nervous marry working boys. If you dont value having a son in law/husband in full time kollel than why are you even looking in that direction?? stop making problems for yourself, there is no reason to get all worked up…February 5, 2012 12:54 am at 12:54 am #853895
I dont get it… to all those that the whole ‘support’ situation is making you nervous marry working boys. If you dont value having a son in law/husband in full time kollel than why are you even looking in that direction?? stop making problems for yourself, there is no reason to get all worked up…
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