April 22, 2013 11:39 pm at 11:39 pm #1042550
the pointing is a minhaf. Ken ama dvar!! And it is mentioned in the siddur as a minhag.
Btw, you are so off!!! By you a self-created safek is le’kula!
About the second one, I have not seen anybody do it. Again don’t jump to conclusions.April 23, 2013 12:21 am at 12:21 am #1042552
“Anyway, I think we will go with chanasara’s advice for now.
It might be sound advice, but I just want to point out that you initially rejected the idea. I quote from your OP:
“If she would have asked the caller what he’s looking for, or say that there are different standards of tznius, that would already raise a red flag.”
Daas Yochid – you got me there! 😉
I guess after reading all the posts, I came to realize that maybe that is the best way to go. It just has to be done the right way. I believe chanasara worded it in a respectful and non-judgmental way.April 23, 2013 12:24 am at 12:24 am #1042553
Brony, do you think covering knees is halachic?April 23, 2013 1:11 am at 1:11 am #1042554
1. I didn’t say pointing – that would actually make sense. I said pointing with the pinky. As for the standing thing, literally everyone I know does it. Are you sephardic?
2. I have no idea, as a male it wasn’t ever nogeia. Tell me, is it halachic? If yes, please source.
3. And what do you mean by a self-created safek l’kula? You mean if I’m not sure why i’m doing something, I take the time to look it up?April 23, 2013 3:02 am at 3:02 am #1042555
Brony, covering the knees is Halochic. I do not have the time now to give a shiur here. Speak to a Rov. I am not going to deliver a shiur here every time some MO or Mo-inclined fellow comes and starts questioning established things.
Are you a Posek that you decide things?
Have you ever heard of “Minhag Yisroel — Torah”?
Why pinky? For all I know the source might be in Kabbolah.
Who are you to agressively attack everything we do?April 23, 2013 3:34 am at 3:34 am #1042556
Your response was far more aggressive than my simple question. Although belittling and spouting ad hominem attacks at those who sincerely inquire seems to be the go-to responses on these forums, the fact is that neither of those methods actually answer the question. I’m still waiting for a source: if you’ve “given this shiur to every MO,” then it shouldn’t be difficult for you to copy and paste your sources or pull them from memory.
“Minhag yisrael torah” cannot be used to mask lack of actual knowledge and sources – that kind of intellectual laziness leads to the deterioration of actual reasoning/sourcing, with the inevitable conclusion that our glorious religion becomes deteriorated to mere rote. If you don’t know why you do something, say so, and be willing to engage in honest discussion. If you want to continue doing something even after you realize that you don’t know why you do it, that’s fine, but don’t act like you do.
Honestly, I’m surprised that what I’m saying is shocking to some. Don’t your actions ring hollow if you have no idea what they mean and why you are doing them? If you are truly satisfied with “for all I know the source might be kabbalah,” I’m not sure what to tell you.April 23, 2013 4:27 am at 4:27 am #1042557
There are sources for pointing with the Pinky although it seems that its more a Sefardy minhag than an Ashkenazi one. Ohr dot edu has a write up about it just google a bit. As for raising yourself by zimun at baruch elokeinu there are sources in a few sefarim brought down in the source section of these halachos in guidelines on Brachos by Rabbis Barclay and Jaeger. When the zimun is less than a minyan and no elokeinu I have no source for why people lift themselves and and it is possible that it has no source but maybe there is a sefer that says its good to do but I have no source.
Brony I’m with mdd. Stop attacking what we do. Get yourself a seder in halacha and start pounding halacha. You’ll learn new things every day.April 23, 2013 4:44 am at 4:44 am #1042558afiluechusParticipant
I agree with mdd, wiy and toi. If the guy specifically asked about her tznius, he obviously cares about how his wifes tznius will be. He should not be lied to or mislead even if her tznius is woefully lacking. Otherwise he may fall into a terrible marriage with her. And tznius is no different than shabbos or kashrus. If the boy asked whether she keeps shabbos or kashrus, and unfortunately she eats in mcdonalds when traveling out of town or texts once in a blue moon after the shabbos night seuda, the boy needs to be told about that.April 23, 2013 4:46 am at 4:46 am #1042559
The finger explanation on ohr is interesting, certainly not something you would ever encounter in a standard Halacha seder (assuming you weren’t learning with R’ Scheinberg). I’m unsure why the index-finger needs such an obscure explanation: as I mentioned earlier, the use of the word “vezos” itself should be sufficient (a la Moshe and the shekel of fire). At any rate, interesting article. Thank you.April 23, 2013 5:09 am at 5:09 am #1042560
My pleasure.April 23, 2013 5:14 am at 5:14 am #1042561
Pointing with the left pinky is brought down by the Ben Ish Chai, I believe.April 23, 2013 7:26 am at 7:26 am #1042562
Brony people posted sources here. Go to page 2.April 23, 2013 10:05 am at 10:05 am #1042563no longer need seminaryMember
we are just learning about this in school! it doesnt matter what the boy wants. she doesnt have to know that because if she does then she will ust say what the boy wants to hear. rather say the truth in the least negative way possible but dont lie coz eventually the truth will come out and it could ruin the marriage which will lead to embarrassment for both them and their families.
after she says this however, she should remind the caller that noone is perfect and she should relay all the good things about this girl.April 23, 2013 10:35 am at 10:35 am #1042564
Brony, there are many things to learn. Reasons for pointing with the pinky is not high priority for me. Got it?April 23, 2013 10:37 am at 10:37 am #1042565
I was aggressive in response to your aggressiveness towards our practice of Halochah.April 23, 2013 12:49 pm at 12:49 pm #1042566
Need seminary help, all this sugar-coating for a ba’alas aveirah. Oy-vey.April 23, 2013 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #1042567
We live in America a culture of political correctness which is the reason why the media doesn’t report certain things and why we have such issues with radical Islam and other issues. It obviously has affected us as well in how we relate to people who blatantly disregard halacha.April 23, 2013 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #1042568bizybodyParticipant
If the guy asked about her tznius clearly he does care about it and she isn’t compatible for him in marriage if she is lacking in this area that is meaningful and important to him. (Aside from the sub-halachic issue.)April 23, 2013 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #1042569
If the guy asked about her tznius clearly he does care about it
There are people who care about it, but their standards do not conform to halachah.April 23, 2013 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #1042570bizybodyParticipant
Someone who does not conform and care to conform to required halachic standards regarding tznius, will generally not care enough about the issue to inquire as to a girls tznius. That he did in fact inquire, indicates he cares deeply enough about it – and maintaining it as per halacha – that he asked about it, something not everyone does.April 24, 2013 3:46 am at 3:46 am #1042571
Bizybody, +1.April 24, 2013 3:52 am at 3:52 am #1042572
“cause we’re dealing with a crowd,
that is oh so very proud,
of how it keeps the laws of modesty”
– Able Rotenberg (Journeys 2, The Wedding Song)April 24, 2013 3:56 am at 3:56 am #1042573🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
mdd – I hope you realize you just agreed with Joseph. That isn’t really going to help your position much.April 24, 2013 9:40 am at 9:40 am #1042574no longer need seminaryMember
mdd. what do you mean? im only stating the halachos we learnt in school.April 24, 2013 10:08 am at 10:08 am #1042575
” That he did in fact inquire, indicates he cares deeply enough about it”
It’s actually more likely that he has reason to believe that she doesn’t dress tzanua and he wanted to know if its true. A greasy boy would never ask because he knows no one would set him up with a girl who even dressed borderline.
As an aside she may be trying to dress tzanua which is something that Gefen could say, but it is unlikely that she would want to marry someone who won’t let her dress as she wants. Personally I would say exactly as it is. ‘Depends on your standards. Sometimes her knees are showing and sometimes her skirts are tight.’ It’s not lashon hara to describe how she dressed in public but its not your place to say she’s not dressed halachic when you don’t know all the leniencies involved.April 25, 2013 2:51 am at 2:51 am #1042576
Syag Lchochmah, I do not care whom I agree with — I said what is the truth.
Interjection, which leniencies are you talking about. The knees must be covered. Period.April 25, 2013 7:51 am at 7:51 am #1042577
The Halacha I learned was that its not assur unless one can see a tefach above the knee and the reason we have to cover the knees is a geder to ensure we don’t come close to where its assur. If you get me a source I will call the school and ask them for their source.April 25, 2013 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #1042578
Interjection, which school said that?!?! And besides, why does she do it? Because she has a heter(which there is not)? Or she is just doing what she wants? If she thought there was a heter to do what she does now she would uncover even more! She is just disregarding the Halochah!April 25, 2013 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #1042579smrMember
1. If they are asking about tznius, then they care and “barely covering the knees” will not be enough.
2. You didn’t state at the beginning (I didn’t read every post) but I tell people before they can even ask one question:
a) “I only answer questions from the parents of the boy/girl) Playing telephone with peoples lives is never a good idea.”
b) I don’t answer any physical-looks questions.
3. I never answer an open ended question. I channel my inner “Colombo” and just look at them blankly and reply “I don’t understand. Can you clarify what you mean?”April 25, 2013 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #1042580
Read this. I don’t think he is stating his “opinion” but rather normative halacha. Find me authoritative sources that disagree.
The Tefach Measurement:
Are there any allowances to keep any of the aforementioned parts uncovered?
Many people who have heard the term, Tefach b’isha ervah, have mistakenly concluded from it that it is permissible to leave less than a tefach (a measurement of 4″ x 4″-10cm x 10cm) of a forbidden area uncovered. This is a serious mistake since the halacha (law) requires complete covering of forbidden areas. The tefach measurement was given only in connection with the husband and very close family saying a bracha (blessing) when his wife is not fully covered, but there is no heter (allowance by law) whatsoever to leave a small amount uncovered in the presence of a stranger, and there is no difference between a tefach and less than a tefach.
Modesty- An Adornment for Life, Rabbi Pesach Eliyahu Falk (pages: 268, 293)April 25, 2013 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #1042582Torah613TorahParticipant
Why are a bunch of guys arguing over the skirt length women should wear? Sorry but that is a little creepy. Are you now going to discuss what denier of stockings is appropriate?
Besides, it makes no sense to have measurements. People’s bodies are shaped differently and a skirt that is technically too short may be much more tznius than another that is not.April 25, 2013 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #1042583hahahahaMember
the way this thread is going, seems that the title’ll have to be changed.
Maybe Skirt Arguments?April 25, 2013 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #1042585
Torah613Torah. the Gemorah discusses all, and I mean, all kinds of things if it is nogeah le’Halochah.April 25, 2013 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #1042586Torah613TorahParticipant
mdd: I am under the impression that they discuss what not to cover, but not how to cover it.April 26, 2013 1:39 am at 1:39 am #1042587
Torah: I once heard a very Choshuv Talmid Chacham say that he thinks that the obsession that some have with how much to cover and skirt lengths and stocking thickness is itself a lack of Tznius.
WIY: Rav Teitz was famous for his Tefach Heter.April 26, 2013 1:41 am at 1:41 am #1042588
Wow! I don’t think I ever started a thread that lasted this long. They usually die out after a day or two and maybe 10 posts. I am so proud that I actually started something interesting. 😉
(I hope they put my smiley face at the END of my comment this time instead of in the middle of my last sentence like has happened a few times)April 26, 2013 1:45 am at 1:45 am #1042589writersoulParticipant
“If she thought there was a heter to do what she does now she would uncover even more!”
Why do you say that? Isn’t that a bit harsh?
Girls don’t violate tznius on a whim, or because it looks fun- they want to look pretty, and that’s how they think they can do it. Misguided, maybe, but I highly doubt this girl is malicious in her dressing (wow, that sounded weird).April 26, 2013 3:14 am at 3:14 am #1042590
Sam2,how are things at YU? Let’s just let them do whatever they want, right? Is Rav Teitz a Posek?
Writesoul, I don’t care if it is harsh, it’s the truth. I did not mean to say it is malicios. I meant to say she knowingly(be’mezid) violates the issur.April 26, 2013 3:18 am at 3:18 am #1042591
Mdd: How many times do I have to remind you that I’ve never once claimed to go to YU. And yes, Rav Teitz was a respected and major Posek for many years. He even has several T’shuvos in the Igros Moshe addressed to him.April 26, 2013 3:33 am at 3:33 am #1042592
And yes, Rav Teitz was a respected and major Posek for many years.
Yes, but let’s be honest, his opinion is really not often considered in normative halachah, certainly not, for instance, in the same breath as R’ Moshe.April 26, 2013 3:34 am at 3:34 am #1042593
So, Sam2, let me remind you that about many shailos you can find some shvere da’as yochids that we don’t pasken like. If you start going with them you can matir 75% of Shulchan Aruch!April 26, 2013 3:46 am at 3:46 am #1042594writersoulParticipant
mdd: But the way you put it the first time made it sound like she is specifically TRYING to be untznius, like if she found out today that there’s no problem with tight skirts she’d start wearing pants solely in order to be untznius.
And THAT is harsh.April 26, 2013 4:02 am at 4:02 am #1042595
Also, why would R’ Teitz argue in the R’ma?April 26, 2013 4:31 am at 4:31 am #1042596
mdd: 75%? If you include Rishonim, I can guarantee you that it’s well over 90. 😛 And I wasn’t saying that we hold like R’ Teitz. I was responding to the harsh Lashon quoted in the name of R’ Falk (who is also outside the bounds of normative Halachah on many of these issues) that the Heter was not made up by Amei Ha’aretz being Nichshal in the precise Lashon.April 26, 2013 4:36 am at 4:36 am #1042597
Sam, I doubt R’ Teitz said it.April 26, 2013 10:40 am at 10:40 am #1042599
So, Sam2, you need to know that by saying things like that you machzik yad ovrei aveirah.April 26, 2013 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #1042600
“Girls don’t violate tznius on a whim, or because it looks fun- they want to look pretty, and that’s how they think they can do it. Misguided, maybe, but I highly doubt this girl is malicious in her dressing”
I don’t think that goes for every girl who dresses untzniusdik as there are many who do it B’davka. They want to rebel or whatever. However, for the girl I am talking about, I think ur right. I believe she just thinks it looks good. She’s very very thin so of course most things look great on her. Of course, I don’t know her as well as my daughter does, but I think she’s basically a good girl otherwise.
So I hear the arguments that it shouldn’t matter what the boy is looking for (I think I said this already in one of my other posts). The question is about HER and her level of tznius. Got that. Also if my daughter would give info that’s misleading, ie; that she is tsnuisdik, and the boy is not like that, it could be potentially a bad situation.
So now my question. If my daughter tells the truth in as nice a way as possible (ex; to ask what they define as tznius, etc etc), and if the girl finds out what she said, how does she deal with the fallout if the girl gets upset with her?April 26, 2013 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #1042601efshirMember
A girl who dresses non-tznius can be a bad influence on your daughter, so it may be best for her to end the friendship in any event.April 26, 2013 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #1042602
how does she deal with the fallout if the girl gets upset with her?
It would be unconscionable for anyone to report what she said (indefensible rechilus).April 26, 2013 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #1042603
efshir – She lives in a different city, so they don’t see each other often at all. They do keep in touch via email and phone though. I hear you about being a bad influence. Baruch Hashem, my daughter is aware of that and is very careful. But as I said, it’s not like they hang out together – so that’s a good thing.
DaasYochid – Yes it would be unconscionable for someone to report what she said, but unfortunately it does happen.
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