March 13, 2023 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #2173363frumishybagelParticipant
Any ideas.someone I know has panick attacks and goes to the hospital during shabbos a lot.is this an aveira.?March 13, 2023 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #2173403ujmParticipant
The best teshuva is to start taking the prescribed meds.March 13, 2023 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #2173407yungermanSParticipant
Solutions to solve the issue
1)he can go to the hospital before shabbos and just wait in case he panics and needs the hospital c”v this is the best way he can avoid the entire chillul shabbos issue
2)pekuach nefesh is docheh shabbos and chillul shabbos is allowed if his life health is in danger even if it happens all the time c”v
May he have installed in him serious faith and trust in Hashem and then he will never have any more panic attacks and may Hashem only grant him health foreverMarch 13, 2023 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #2173418yungermanSParticipant
He can also do teshuva by either starting the shabbos earlier then the regular time as a zchus for previous weeks being mechalel shabbos or keep shabbos longer as a sign of sincere teshuva to Hashem.March 13, 2023 11:48 pm at 11:48 pm #2173443
I don’t think teshuva is required. He genuinely believes himself to be in danger. Having a delusion is not an aveirah. And for people with severe anxiety attacks, they literally cannot convince themselves that they are not in mortal danger. Each time, they think “no, THIS time is different!”
It’s not an aveirah. And him thinking it is is only going to make it harder to have a refuah.March 14, 2023 9:34 am at 9:34 am #2173496Shimon NodelParticipant
Talk to a professional (a talmid chacham/psychologist, someone who is both), not the coffee roomMarch 14, 2023 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #2173776bina vodasParticipant
Frumishy bagel, i dont know how close you are to the person having panic attacks, if you are a close family then the last thing he needs is you and others judging him rather he needs Teshuva or he is doing a aveira, what he needs is support and therapy to help him overcome his attacks, and guilty feeling are not one of them, I would suggest he go for therapy, CBT approach is known to help for anxiety.March 14, 2023 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #2173749n0mesorahParticipant
Learn the melachos of shabbos is the correct answer to the hypothetical question.
The answer to this thread can be found at http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/driving-a-tesla-on-shabbosMarch 14, 2023 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #2173820anonymous JewParticipant
I agree with Avira. True teshuvah is achieved when, placed in the same situation, the action is not repeated. However, since he genuinely is having an attack, he must repeat the action, which is not an avairah.March 15, 2023 12:17 am at 12:17 am #2173836
Seems like this person indeed needs love and support and, possibly, treatment for his condition.
That said, starting shabbos early is a practical solution – get the panic trip out of the way before shabbos, while someone else can drive the person to the hospital and back.March 15, 2023 12:51 am at 12:51 am #2173859
Aaq, who says the attacks happen at the beginning of shabbos? Panic attacks can happen at any time, and some people don’t know what their triggers areMarch 15, 2023 12:53 am at 12:53 am #2173860RBZSParticipant
Someone called me in Israel when it was still Shabbos by him, so I hung up on him.
When his Shabbos was over, he called me again and said that it is a matter of pikuach nefesh which is docheh Shabbos. He claimed to be sick, physically and emotionally and that talking to me made him feel better and would save his life. Since he was not shomer Shabbos in general, I did not take him seriously and insisted that he only call me when it was chol.
After a few weekday calls, he called one night and we spoke for about an hour, during which he repeated that he was very sick. I still did not believe him, since he did not go to a doctor. I thought that he was just lonely since he lived alone.
The next morning I was informed that he had died during the night.
So, we never can really know the other person’s situation.
Surely a frum psych must be consulted for practical advice.March 15, 2023 11:22 am at 11:22 am #2173937
RBZS, a sad story. This is a case of a bias: halochos shabbos are pretty straight-forward, while internal state of a person is an unknown thing.
Not sure how to fight this bias – ask a Rav, imagine that this person is your close relative, show to him that you really care (say, walk there on shabbos – not possible in your case).March 15, 2023 11:22 am at 11:22 am #2173938
Avira, I presumed that the most jarring moment is transition from chol to shabbos. Maybe the person does not know how to detach himself or afraid to focus on himself (especially, these days when people can use tech to always be “busy”).
But if someone has panic attack later on shabbos, I would examine what is in the cholent and whether it is heated sufficiently.March 15, 2023 12:23 pm at 12:23 pm #2174023
Aaq, mental health isn’t a joke; i know many people who suffer debilitating anxiety, often in silence, and the fact that many in our community don’t take it seriously adds to their suffering. Sometimes they’re made to feel “crazy,” or abnormal, they worry about shidduchim and won’t take medication because of it. They’ll hear people say things like “just breathe into a paper bag,” or “it’s all in your head,” and other insensitive comments. Or they’ll be told to just have bitachon.
Whatever the cause is, it’s definitely something in modern times, because to have these issues to such a degree where a person can’t function was very rare into recently.March 15, 2023 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #2174044DaMosheParticipant
I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve had to use the phone on Shabbos. I’ve even had to drive on Shabbos. When you have a family member with health problems, this is the reality.
Doing this does not require teshuva, as you did nothing wrong. In fact, if you push things off until after Shabbos, that would probably require teshuva, because you prioritized Shabbos over a person’s life.
After one of the first times I had to go with someone to the hospital on Shabbos, I was discussing with my Rav about how I did things. I old him that I didn’t know if I did everything properly, minimizing the melachah as much as possible.
He responded to me that it’s easier when you know something will happen – for example, if your wife is due to give birth, and there’s a good chance it will happen on Shabbos, you can pre-arrange for a car, explaining that payment will be given after Shabbos, ask for them to open doors, etc.
When it’s an unplanned emergency, you just react, and there’s nothing wrong with that. In a case of pikuach nefesh, you do what you think is best to help the person. You’re in the ER and need a nurse, and you don’t see one at the desk? You can ring the call bell. His words were, “Don’t overthink things.” Trying to minimize melachah can cause the level of care to be less.March 15, 2023 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #2174050anonymous JewParticipant
AAQ, whatever respect I had for you is gone. Mental health is no joke, and, because of attitudes like yours, people can be reluctant to get help for themselves or a child. My grandson has Asperger Syndrome. His parents recognized the signs very early, fought hard to get him therapy ( the earlier the most beneficial) and B”h he’s made great strides. Two of her friends ignored the symptoms in their kids because they didn’t want to ruin the siblings shudduchimMarch 15, 2023 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #2174053ujmParticipant
Avira, I agree with what you’re saying. I’ll just add that sometimes on this forum there’s a suspicion a poster is making an imaginary tumult rather than anyone not taking a real situation seriously.March 15, 2023 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #2174087DaMosheParticipant
I actually agree with Aveirah for once. Anxiety can be crippling for some, and it’s hard to understand what they go through.
That said, I disagree about it being something in modern times. If anything, in modern times, we have medications to treat it, so you may only see someone’s anxiety being an issue when it breaks through the medication. I’d think that 100 years ago, people with bad anxiety were just considered to be crazy, because with no treatment, they always seemed “weird”.March 15, 2023 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #2174160Avram in MDParticipant
“AAQ, whatever respect I had for you is gone. Mental health is no joke, and, because of attitudes like yours, people can be reluctant to get help for themselves or a child.”
I’m not 100% sure if he was joking or not, I mean, he wrote something in a joking way but he may have been serious with his point. I know someone who had a certain type of recurring hear arrhythmia that was misdiagnosed as panic/anxiety attacks (she was usually panicking when the events occurred – because they were scary! and were back to a tachycardic normal sinus rhythm by the time she was seen), until one day when her heart was clocking north of 230bpm and would not slow down, the paramedics got leads on her and a strip showing the arrhythmia. While managing the condition, she found that some foods could trigger the arrhythmia.March 15, 2023 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #2174188
I apologize for the joking tone of my second paragraph. Did not want to offend anyone. The serious way to put that is this: Shabbos is supposed to be time of menucha and, hopefully, this should be beneficial for the person. So, maybe there are some external or internal pressures that prevent relaxation – be somewhere on time, daven in a proper place, behave during a dinner, etc. Maybe one can re-arrange their shabbos routine and focus on what makes this person happier and relaxed without doing things other consider obligatory. I am not claiming any expertise here, just thinking out loud.March 16, 2023 9:27 am at 9:27 am #2174290pekakParticipant
The bigger question is, how does a person who doesn’t know the halachos well enough do teshuva for deciding to be machmir on himself or somebody else with sometimes horrible consequences.March 16, 2023 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #2174429commonsaychelParticipant
Do teshuva by not posting trollish topicsMarch 28, 2023 12:27 pm at 12:27 pm #2177780@fakenewsParticipant
As many others have noted here this is a topic to be discussed with a mental health, professional, and a rabbi or mental health professional, who is a rabbi.
As far as always ask questions beans, it is clinically proven that under cooked beans can cause all sorts of gastrointestinal issues, which can often mimic signs of a heart attack or other major health issues. Typically a panic attack will mimic one or more of those issues. There is a large amount of overlap between a panic attack and undercooked cholent beans.
So please, soak your beans or make sure that your cholent is cooking at a high enough temperature.March 28, 2023 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #2178077
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