April 9, 2012 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #602855April 9, 2012 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #869465mewhoParticipant
now this is funny
what happens if the mother of the kallah steps on the chossons foot or the mother of the chosson steps on the kallahs foot?April 9, 2012 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #869466Bar ShattyaMember
I’m a little confused as to what kind of troll post this is, can someone help me??April 9, 2012 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #869467morahmomParticipant
Sounds like the perfect post from someone named Czar…April 9, 2012 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #869468shmoelMember
The OP cites a maare makom. It should be pretty easy to lookup if its an accurate quote.April 9, 2012 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #869469
The Nitai Gavriel also brings this down, though he only says the Chosson can do this (not the Kallah.) He footnotes a number of sources, including the one above.April 9, 2012 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #869470BowwowParticipant
Czar– Footnote! Nice Pun!April 9, 2012 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #869471
I learnt this just before my wedding from my choson teacher.
It works. (At least it did for me.)April 9, 2012 10:53 pm at 10:53 pm #869472
Bar Shattya: I’m guessing it’s a type (3) al pi yitayningwut.April 10, 2012 4:28 am at 4:28 am #869473
Shulchan HaEzer (Vol 2 Simon 8:24 page 50a):April 10, 2012 4:47 am at 4:47 am #869474
And I suppose this “remedy” overrides the woman’s Bechirah Chofshis?April 10, 2012 5:19 am at 5:19 am #869475YakovLMember
Sam2: She has a bechirah chofshis – she should ask the husband that night to bring her a cup of water, she then becomes the one in charge for lifetime.April 10, 2012 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #869477WolfishMusingsParticipant
If a marriage is in such a state that one person has to have “control” of it, then that, IMHO, is a very sad marriage. “Taking control of a marriage” should not mean taking control of a spouse.
The WolfApril 10, 2012 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #869478YakovLMember
CZAR:Do you agree to my last comment? It is emes and is based on the mekor.April 11, 2012 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #869480
is czar a marriage counselorApril 11, 2012 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #869481
What’s the difference. He/she didn’t say anything other than quote some Seforim.April 12, 2012 3:04 am at 3:04 am #869482shuliParticipant
ill make sure to hide my foot under a super long gown, and when the chosson would try to step on it, i would have a loud siren go off, so that he will be distracted and i will step on his.
perfect, no?April 12, 2012 3:42 am at 3:42 am #869483
Give it up, shuli. He’s gonna be much stronger than you and get you before you know what hit you. Then you’ll be completely under his thumb for the rest of your life.April 12, 2012 4:11 am at 4:11 am #869484
shuli: A pair of hob-nailed boots under that gown might do the trick.April 12, 2012 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #869485
This remedy shouldn’t be publicized. It is given privately to the Choson at his Choson Shmooze.April 12, 2012 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #869486
This “remedy” doesn’t make any sense. I’ll repeat, what happens to Bechirah Chofshis? Either a Chassan or Kallah’s Bechirah Chofshis for their entire lives is removed if one of them does this at the wedding? Come on. It defies logic and basic principles of belief.April 12, 2012 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #869487
I cannot believe what I am reading! How can Sam speak against the above Seforim HaKedoshim with such impunity??
And what about the “bechira” of a citizen to refuse to follow his King’s orders? Or a child’s bechira to refuse to have Kibud Av? Or the bechira of someone without legs to walk into a place of sin.April 12, 2012 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #869488
My father z’l used to recall an old saying from one of his rebeim, he who takes every midrash literally is a tipesh, and he who takes no midrash literally is also a tipesh. The trick is to know which is which. I think this one falls into the category of not literally, because if any of those discussing it had actually any experience of real life, real ups and downs in a marriage, and real relationships that you need to actually work at every single day of your marriage, they wouldn’t waste their time worrying about dominating their wife. They would work on mutual respect, interdependence, and building a good home for kids. And even when you try it doesn’t always work. The whole concept being suggested is mind bogglingly obtuse.April 12, 2012 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #869490ItcheSrulikMember
yichusdik: I like that line about midrashim. A friend of mine told me something similar b’shem his rebbi. “Midrashim are meant to be taken seriously, not literally,” though I don’t know what either quote has to do with anything since this isn’t a medrash 🙂April 12, 2012 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #869491
“This “remedy” doesn’t make any sense. I’ll repeat, what happens to Bechirah Chofshis? Either a Chassan or Kallah’s Bechirah Chofshis for their entire lives is removed if one of them does this at the wedding? Come on. It defies logic and basic principles of belief.”
What these medrashim, etc mean is not that you lose your bechirah, but rather that it is much harder for you to choose one of the options – ie harder nisayon. For example, someone born from a woman who doesn’t go to the mikvah [meaning born from niddus] will have bad middos. THis means that rov will bec it is a much harder nisayon. And further, ahen a gadol gives someone a bracha that he become a tzaddik, that doesn’t mean he has no free will, just that it will be easier for him to achieve it. Ramchal in Derech HASHEM spells this out – (loose paraphrasing) – “Gazrah B’chachmaso HaElyonah that some people will get siyata dishmaya and therefore be able to achieve shlaimus more easily, and some will aderabah will min hashamayim be put into very trying conditions that will make it much harder to do so.”April 15, 2012 1:37 am at 1:37 am #869492
Actually, Itchesrulik (gut Voch, by the way) Rav Eliyahu Hakohen wrote midrash Talpiot, which was the original citation, as a compendium of midrashim and comments based on midrashim.
Mocho Timche, I think we can all agree that siyata dishmaya from the brocho of a godol to a good person is an incentive to shlaimus. That makes sense. It is unfathomable to compare that kind of syata dishmaya to putting one’s foot over that of his kallah for the purpose of dominating her in the matrimonial home.April 15, 2012 1:58 am at 1:58 am #869493
Clearly Rav Eliyahu HaKohen, and all the other Achronim who approvingly cite this, agree with this remedy.
I sincerely doubt any of us here in the CR are anywhere near any of their (Medrash Talpiot, Nitai Gavriel, Shulchan HaEzer) levels, to argue with them.April 15, 2012 6:30 am at 6:30 am #869494
Well, Cheftze, You may be right about a CR denizen’s capacity to argue with an authority from an earlier generation, but I’d question anyone who argues with Hillel Hazoken – who clarifies veohavto loreacho komocho as meaning that which is hateful to you should not do to another – and unless it is ok to all that the woman should dominate the man (also unhealthy), these opinions would seem to argue with not only a tanna, but perhaps the most important tanna of the entire mishnaic era.
Another of our greatest tannoim was Rabbi Akiva, and as you know we are now in a period of mourning for 24,000 of his students, who died, we are told, because they didn’t show proper honor to others. How is dominating a wife honoring her?
For further reference you can look at the instruction of R’Yehuda Ibn Tibon, a Rishon, to his son on how he should treat his wife – I won’t go into detail, but it is a clear tzivui to treat her with honor, respect, and appreciation. As he said, to act otherwise is contemptible.
You may also want to look at gemoro gittin, daf 6 omud beis, beginning with rav chisda’s warning about how to treat your household, or Bava Metzia daf 59 omud alef for similar positions from two other amoroim.
So Cheftze, to conclude, I’m basing my position on tannoim, amoroim, and rishonim… How about you?April 15, 2012 11:01 am at 11:01 am #869495
yichusdik: That all sounds so nice to put your feelings, somehow, into what Tannaim said. Yet their still your feelings that you are trying to justify by dreying them into what how you’d like to interpert a Tanna. You could argue against any Rashi, Rambam, or anyone for that matter, without any support from any Amora, Rishon, Achron, etc by simply saying the authorities you dont like are somehow going against a Tanna. Yet, it is still you against the authorities, unless you bring another authority to support your position.
So who disagrees with this Medrash Talpiot and the other Acronim above, other than the Chachmei HaCR, that you can directly cite rather than trying to drey that the Achronm are going against the Tannaim without any authority agreeing with you vs the Achronim?April 15, 2012 12:03 pm at 12:03 pm #869496
Hmmm…Just using your logic, cheftze. It sounds so nice to find an achron who agrees with (what are apparently) your feelings about dominating your wife as a method of harmony in marriage, but, like you did, I questioned how someone in later doros could question those in earlier ones. I found that, like you, I had ample support for my position, only mine was sourced from Mishna, Gemoro, and kisvei rishonim.
I guess what is good for the goose is not good for the gander…
Oh, and you are inclining me to look at mochoh timche’s posts in a more positive light. At least he was saying the placement of a foot COULD have an INFLUENCE on the progress of a marriage that could last for decades with all of its ups and downs. You seem to be advocating that a few seconds of stepping on toes WILL and SHOULD be the DETERMINANT in the face of much halachic opinion to the effect that such domination is at wide variance with halocho and yesodei hatoroh.April 15, 2012 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #869497
Y’know, another boich svara you can come up with is that everyone MUST buy their loved ones a bar of choclate (if they like choclate) EVERY Erev Shabbos. Otherwise they are bad, since they are violating veohavto loreacho komocho and going against ” the most important tanna of the entire mishnaic era.” And no one dare say it is ever okay to not buy that choclate. Its such a good boich svara that you can even use it against any Achron who says otherwise, without needing any additional source.
In any event, this argument is about a davar pashut. The husband has always been the authority in the home. Even if he didnt put his foot down under the Chuppa. The seforim say as much without dissent. For a most recent source simply read the various seforim of Rav Avigdor Miller zt’l, who writes many times the husband is the Captain and the wife the First Mate who differs to the authority of the husband. (And the husband always takes the wifes opinion into account before making a decision.)April 15, 2012 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #869498
“Mocho Timche, I think we can all agree that siyata dishmaya from the brocho of a godol to a good person is an incentive to shlaimus. That makes sense. It is unfathomable to compare that kind of syata dishmaya to putting one’s foot over that of his kallah for the purpose of dominating her in the matrimonial home.”
Let’s review: “is an incentive to shlaimus” – That’s not what pshat in a bracha is, though true in and of itself; a bracha is actually a powerful mystical tool with real tangible effects in the Hasgacha of HASHEM on the world what HE will Make happen.
“It is unfathomable to compare that kind of syata dishmaya to putting one’s foot over that of his kallah for the purpose of dominating her in the matrimonial home.” – Since every form of segulah, bracha, etc works in the same exact way – ie affecting what the Hashgacha in the world will be, what metzius will be in the world and in what state it will exist and what interactions will occur – there is no difference between the these two things except for the mechanism that is causing the change in metzius.April 15, 2012 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #869499oomisParticipant
Gives a whole new meaning to “getting marriage off on the right foot.” Any chosson who deliberately stomps on his kallah’s foot, will be lucky if she (or her mother) doesn’t reflexively kick him hard in the shins! 😛April 15, 2012 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #869500
not if her foot is brokenApril 16, 2012 3:39 am at 3:39 am #869501
I think some of the posters in this thread are showing a fundamental flaw in their belief of how Hashem runs this world. (Not that there is any flaw in their Emunah, rather there is a logical flaw in how they apply it.) Some posters here seem to think that if a Sefer has a Segulah, it is an absolute guarantee that this will happen. This is, obviously, not true. Whenever you state an absolute, you will be wrong. (Slightly relevant anecdote: I know someone who went off the Derech because he had a friend who earned a fortune on Tishah B’av and the Gemara says that someone who does business on T”B won’t ever see a Siman Bracha with that money.)
The Gemara itself, however, acknowledges this. The Gemara (maybe Kiddushin 39b?) mentions that one of the reasons that Acher stopped believing was because he saw a kid who was doing a Mitzvah die while doing it. The Gemara then asks how that could have happened in the first place. One Tanna (Amora?) gives the answer that in a dangerous situation, a Shliach Mitzvah can be hurt. The Gemara then rejects that answer and doesn’t provide one. We have a K’lal that a Shliach Mitzvah is never hurt.
How, then, can this assurance go against reality? The point is that HKBH runs this world and has to decide what happens on an infinite scale. While it may be that, short-term, a Shliach Mitzvah is protected from harm, that’s only when all else is equal. Sometimes HKBH just has overriding concerns to take into account.
So too here. It’s silly to say that stepping on someone’s foot will determine her every decision for the rest of her life. That’s just obviously not true. What it means is that she will have much more of an inclination to be the more passive one in the relationship if someone would do this.April 16, 2012 6:04 am at 6:04 am #869502
What it means is that she will have much more of an inclination to be the more passive one in the relationship if someone would do this.
I’m glad you’ve finally come around to this point. Mochoh timche suggested something along similar lines above, and yet was put down for that. Earlier it was insinuated that the Seforim were somehow wrong based on folks here’s personal svaras. I don’t see anyone above suggesting that this remedy has a 100% ironclad effectiveness, as you suggest was suggested.April 16, 2012 12:39 pm at 12:39 pm #869503squeakParticipant
” the wife the First Mate who differs to the authority of the husband
Freudian slip?April 16, 2012 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #869504
I’m glad you’ve finally come around to this point. Mochoh timche suggested something along similar lines above, and yet was put down for that.
Wow thanks! first time someone has stuck up for me.April 16, 2012 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #869505
Let me ask those being punctilious about the degree to which we need to take every svoro described, discussed, or suggested above as commendable; Have you ever walked alone on a Wednesday night or a Motzoei Shabbos? EVER? Even once? If you have, you have violated a restriction in the Gemoro, in Psachim 112 omud beis, (you can look it up)and you have endangered your life. Now, if you can tell me that you follow this instruction in the Gemoro, and have never, nor will you ever do so, I am prepared to say – you are right, I am wrong, and let the foot stomping begin. If not, however, don’t be a hypocrite.April 18, 2012 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #869507CsarMember
(Dear Mod: I took out the portion I think caused you to decline posting this last time. Hopefully it is okay now. Thank you)
Chida: Importance of husband being boss
The basis of this segula is that the woman is from the left side and her conduct is based on the strict level of right and wrong which is difficult. In such a house run by the strict level of justice there is no lack of sickness and poverty and something else. Happy is the household that is run by the man because it is as if it is run by the attribute of mercy. Consequently there will be no bad happenings that will happen in that household because the Shechina is manifest in a house which is conducted according to the attribute of mercy. You should also know that there are three types of gevura in man. The first is the might which is involved in conquering many lands. The second type is even greater than the first and is the gevura in controlling his wife. The third which is the hardest is the gevura in controlling his evil inclination.April 18, 2012 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #869508
So, with this absolute statement, even as it is taken from the words of a gadol,
“consequently there will be no bad happenings that will happen in that household because the Shechina is manifest in a house which is conducted according to the attribute of mercy.”
Are you telling me that there has never been a bad happening in the house of a Jew who dominates his wife? Ever? Even if once, you are conceding that the statement isn’t absolute. And if you don’t concede that even once it happened, you are unfortunately fooling yourself.April 18, 2012 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #869509
Patri: It works. (At least it did for me.)
I highly doubt it. And it explains your other thread “Who is at fault for divorce?”April 18, 2012 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #869510
yichusdik: forget about no bad happening in the house. Anyone who thinks the Shechina is found in such a home is a foolApril 18, 2012 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #869511
Computer777: I am not divorced c’v. Yes, I can state from direct personal experience that this segula worked for me. Just as the above Seforim HaKedoshim said it would.
But forget my kovod. I am compelled to defend the kovod of Chachmei Yisroel following your shocking statement not only dismissing the holy words of our gedolim and poskim, four of which were quoted above, but that of you actually calling them fools! It is the Seforim Hakedoshim that say the Shechina is in such a home.April 18, 2012 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #869512
Patri, I am having a challenging time reconciling facts, evidence, experience, and knowledge with your assertions. My current issue is that YOU take the statement as absolute, and that is not something you can prove or justify. You, baruch hashem, are not divorced, and the segula has apparently worked for you. My ex walked around me seven times under the chuppah, and that was supposed to be a segula for her and I and the shlaimus of our marriage. Obviously, it didn’t work. I hope that it continues to work for you, but how do you know with absolute certainty that it will. If you had asked me a number of years ago if I would get divorced, I would have said no. Obviously things can change.
I am sorry that you cannot distinguish between a segula and a halocho. Perhaps when you have more experience in the ups and downs of a marriage, in raising kids, in having a job, owning a house, dealing with illness, bereavement, and other yisurin, you may look at things in a more realistic light. In the Chesed L’Avraham, you are taking an interpretive stance of a peirush on a part of the Tanach that was written in a complete allegory meikoroh, and you are adamant about its application in every instance. That is not a very discerning or mature approach. May HKBH bless you with wisdom.April 18, 2012 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #869513
Patri: I reread what the post says. It says “the Shechina is manifest in a house which is conducted according to the attribute of mercy.”
I had read it wrong and of course this is true, a home that is run with the attribute of mercy, the Shechnia will reside.
On the other hand, when the members of a home are controlled by the man of the house, that home is usually NOT a home of mercy. I don’t care what proof you will bring to me that shows that it is.April 18, 2012 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #869515avhabenParticipant
computer77: The very same Sefer that you quoted saying the Shechina will reside in a home of mercy, further recommends the husband be in charge since — says the Sefer — when the man is in charge that will bring the attribute of mercy in the house.
If you disagree, you are disagreeing with the Sefer. Don’t blame the messenger (any posters here.) So far I see no one citing any dissenting Seforim to the above Seforim.April 19, 2012 12:28 am at 12:28 am #869516
Forget about reconciling facts, evidence, experience, or knowledge with my or others here assertions. Simply acknowledge, accept, embrace and love the sweet and heilige direct verter of the Seforim Hakedoshim as simply stated in the Medrash Talpiot, Nitai Gavriel, Shulchan HaEzer and Chesed L’Avraham and others. And IY”H when you get married, take advice from the Seforim Hakedoshim. It has helped countless Yidden over many many generations and centuries.
Chachmei Yisroel, with siyata dshmaya from the Aibershter, never let us down.April 19, 2012 12:34 am at 12:34 am #869517
I open this thread every day just to see how hard it can make me laugh. Great pick me up. 🙂April 19, 2012 12:39 am at 12:39 am #869518
Patri: Can you honestly believe that anything in this world is an absolute? What do you do with the Gemara in Kiddushin I quoted above?
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