Hungarian Yidden

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  • #598186

    Peacemaker
    Member

    I noticed that Hungarian Yidden have a certain class that stands out. They always do things bakavod’dik. What does it shtam from?

    #789551

    optimusprime
    Member

    I would assume Hungary

    #789552

    deiyezooger
    Member

    They have Europien formaleties.

    #789553

    shlishi
    Member

    The Yekkes (German Yidden) are similar in a sense (in a different way though) to the Hungarian Yidden with their respectability.

    #789554

    Agreer
    Participant

    Well, I would venture to say that there are many inter-related factors, but basically, it boils down to one… MONEY!

    – Hungarian Jews were much wealthier than their European counterparts. They had the means to do things more b’kovodik, and that was passed onto their offspring. Affluence makes it easier to do things more respectably.

    – Hungarians always followed the derech of being ehrliche baalei batim, as opposed to cobblers and poor yeshiva students. This derech comes from the Chasam Sofer, who was the rov in Pressburg (then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire).

    – Additionally, the Yidden in Hungary were not as prosecuted by the goyim as in other regions of the continent. This allowed them to work and maintain their money better than others in Poland, Lita, etc.

    – Hungary was one of the last countries to be affected by the Holocaust. Their collective psychological suffering wasn’t as lengthy as it was for others, which means that they were able to rebound more easily than Jews of other nations. (Of course, I don’t want to minimize anyone’s terrible suffering, and this is just my theory.)

    – Hungarians were exposed to a culture of luxury because the Austro-Hungarian Empire was wealthier than other countries (Poland, Lithuania, Russia, etc). Again, being exposed to that wealth got transmitted into their genes, and B”H the descendants of Hungarian Jews have channeled that culture of luxury into beautiful Yiddishe traditions, enabling the rest of gang to learn from our wonderful ways and embrace beauty.

    #789555

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Yekkes are more understated and classy. Hungarians are more ostentatious and gaudy.

    #789556

    Englishman
    Member

    Many of the Gedolei Yisroel of yesteryear (Chasam Sofer, et al) came from the greater Hungarian lands. Today’s Czech, Slovakia, parts of Romania, even a small part of the Ukraine — the Carpathian (Ruthenia) region — that once was a heavily dense Orthodox Jewish and Chasidic geographical area, in addition to today’s Hungary proper were all part of pre-Trianon Treaty (pre-WWI) Hungary.

    #789557

    Hungarians are more ostentatious and gaudy.

    Ostentatious maybe, but gaudy, I wouldn’t say for it has a cheap conotation. rather maybe fancy, richly..

    #789558

    shlishi
    Member

    There were poor Yidden living in Hungary too.

    #789559

    It all comes from repeating the great segila “Saygec Arosz, Siksza Arann” three times after Musaf on Rosh Chodesh. This segila was brought down by the Ingarischer-Ganover Roov, who is one of the few people named Segal who is not a Levi. His Segal surname stood for sof ganav letliya.

    #789560

    Jam
    Participant

    I think its specifically the Oberlander Hungarians who carry the shtultz and appreciate when things are exquisite and admirable.

    (I actually find it kind of facinating- walking in to jewish home and you can sort of tell if they are decendants of hungarians or non-hungarians)

    #789561

    skiaddict
    Member

    all i know is that hungarians make the best food!!!(my gran)

    #789562

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    BP girl: You’re right, “flashy” would be a better word.

    bear: So since my great grandmother was Rumanian and I don’t keep that siggeeeleh, do I qualify for Saygec Arosz?

    #789563

    and you can sort of tell if they are decendants of hungarians or non-hungarians

    Chandeliers in the bathroom. Bingo.

    #789564

    metrodriver
    Member

    Agreer; You make it sound like there were no poor people in Hungary and everyone had a crystal chandelier in their bathroom. Or, that there were no wealthy Yidden in Poland or Lithuania. The fact that some Yiddelach who hail from Hungary are ostentatious does not mean that they were wealthy in Europe or they have an extra Dollar to their name. I have a theory (And I know plenty of cases to prove it.) that a truly wealthy person doesn’t flaunt his riches. On the other hand, a “Shnorrer” will live an ostentatious lifestyle, on borrowed money.

    #789565

    Jam
    Participant

    Derech hamelech-

    “Chandeliers in the bathroom”- definitely a hallmark 😉

    (there are other clues too…..)

    #789566

    mms601
    Participant

    Ever heard the yidish expression “kish mir in unterland”

    #789567

    Bowwow
    Participant

    My grandmother was from Budapest and my grandfather from frankfurt. They had a chandelier but were too cheap to turn it on!

    #789568

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    A chandelier isn’t enough. Chandelier matches floor matches mezuza cases. Otherwise you have a Galitzianer wannabe.

    #789569

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    it is pretty obvious that the moderators do not know yiddish…otherwise the comments by kilo bear and mms601 would not have passed their watchful eye…..

    Ich darfen yiddish -95

    #789570

    yossief
    Member

    I think that the classiness comes from valuing education. There were plenty of poor Jews in Hungary, but the education was more universal and then in many other places. They also believed in secular education, and that made it easier to make a living.

    I think all the comments about chandeliers are cheap shots that have no place in a blog on YESHIVAWORLD.COM. Remember that we have been stereotyped by goyim for centuries. There is no reason to do it to ourselves. If you think that Hungarian Jews are classy, you are welcome to learn from them. If you find the chandelier flashy, don’t buy one, just get a fluorescent light fixture. And skip the nastiness, or at least don’t be nasty in such a public forum. You never know who will read it.

    #789571

    kapusta
    Participant

    We’re just really special. 😉 (But no chandelier in the bathroom.)

    I have a theory (And I know plenty of cases to prove it.) that a truly wealthy person doesn’t flaunt his riches. On the other hand, a “Shnorrer” will live an ostentatious lifestyle, on borrowed money.

    Not sure if it applies to everyone, but definitely to many. What is it they say about a few coins making more noise than a lot of coins…?

    *kapusta*

    #789573

    metrodriver
    Member

    Kapusta; (Your moniker creates a situation of ??? Hungarian. Because cabbage is called so in several East European languages other than Hung.) That saying you are referring to about the coins hails from the Gemara (Talmud Tr. Gittin), among other places. ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ????. Meaning; A few coins inside a wallet will make noise, as opposed to a stuffed wallet. A more prust saying goes like this; “Empty Barrels Make lots of Noise”.

    #789575

    Englishman
    Member

    Your moniker creates a situation of ??? Hungarian.

    A true simcha in Klal Yisroel is when one Ungarisher Yid is m’shadech with another Ungarisher Yid continuing to the progeny of the elite of the elite in the klal.

    #789576

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Englishman: That’s funny, I thought the elite were the talmidei chachomim? Or the kohanim? Ingarischer edited

    #789577

    Englishman
    Member

    You must’ve missed the part of history where a preponderance of Tzadikim, Talmidei Chachomim, Rabbonim, and Gedolei Yisroel zt”l (Chasam Sofer, Maharam Schick etc. et al) indeed are from Hungary.

    It was no error of history that Hungarian Jewry was able to maintain a strong allegiance to Torah Judaism whereas in many other lands (i.e. Germany, et al) the Reformers made much further gains.

    #789578

    Aishes Chayil
    Participant

    English man;

    With all due respect, there were plenty of reformers in Hungary as well, and many iconic Gedolim who have stememd from Germany, Galicia , Lithuania etc.

    Divrei Chaim, (Galica) Rav Shamshom R Hirsh, Wurtzburger Rav, Bamberger, Rav Yisroel Salanter, Vilna Gaon to name a few.

    #789579

    Englishman
    Member

    Aishes: There were far fewer inroads made by the Reformers in Hungary. And even whatever inroads they did make (Neologs) were a milder form than what happened elsewhere. The Chasam Sofer himself takes a large amount of credit for stemming the tide in Hungary.

    #789580

    minyan gal
    Member

    My mother always told me that I came from yiches because both of my parents, both grandparents on either side and all great grandparents were Kohanim and Bat Kohanim. None had ever been closer to Hungary than Poland and Russia. Who knew?

    #789581

    Aishes Chayil
    Participant

    True,

    however I think there were more Neologs in Oiberland ( Budapest, Eger etc.)

    than there were in the Chassidish part of Hungary, such as Kasho, Munkatch, Ungvar etc…

    #789582

    Chein
    Member

    I thought Oberland refers to areas like Prague (Czech) and Slovakia, areas that were Chareidi but not really Chasidish, i.e. the Vien kehilla (Adas Yereim).

    #789583

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Chein: That is correct.

    Englishman: If being from the same country as talmidei chachamim and tzaddikim makes one yichus, than even the Hungarians must acknowledge that they are not the “elite of the elite.” That honor goes to the Israelis who are from the same country as the neviim or –if you complain about the new yishuv — Iraqis who are from the same country as the Amoraim.

    #789584

    Aishes Chayil
    Participant

    what was unterland then?

    #789585

    The “Israelis” are not “from” EY any more than most Americans are “from” the US. They emigrated there from other places, and not always willingly as in the case of Iraqi Jews who were forced out of Iraq by tzioini agitation. Over 300,000 “Israelis” are not even Jews. The only Jews who truly can claim they are from EY are those few, like the Zenati family in the Galil, whose ancestors never left. Also, the old yishuv has some authenticity as it is made up of Jews who went up to EY bikdusha ubetehoro.

    Iraqis are also from the same country as Avraham Avinu.

    Kasho, Munkacz, Ungvar, Satu Mare etc were located in lands conquered by the ancestors of the present Hungarians. They had another culture altogether.

    #789586

    shlishi
    Member

    Kasho, Munkacz, Ungvar, Satu Mare etc were located in lands conquered by the ancestors of the present Hungarians. They had another culture altogether.

    Those areas were part of Hungary for a thousand year (from about year 900 CE) right until the end of World War I (1920), when the Austro-Hungarian empire was broken up into smaller countries and this area was incorporated into the new state of Czechoslovakia at the behest of the victorious Allies. (Satu Mare was given to Romania then.) It was about 33% (Orthodox) Jewish, while the goyim were a mix of Hungarians, Rusyns (not Russians), and Ukrainians. In 1938 the Hungarians took it back just before WWII and held it until the end of the war in 1944 when the Allies returned it to Czechoslovakia. Because it was in Hungary again from 1938-1944 instead of Czechoslovakia, when the Nazis ym’s invaded Czechoslovakia in 1938, this area (like the rest of Hungary) was spared until 1944 when the Nazis took over Hungary itself. In 1945 the Soviet Union took the area away from Czechoslovakia. When USSR broke up in 1991 it became part of the Ukraine. These were heavily Chasidic towns right up to World War II.

    #1737435

    Joseph
    Participant

    Are Hungarian Yidden largely responsible for the ostentatiousness in Klal Yisroel?

    #1737437

    Joseph
    Participant

    Does anyone know when the last frum Yidden from the prewar Orthodox community in Hungary left Hungary? There were relatively large numbers of Orthodox Jews still living in Hungary at least as late as 1956. But at some point after the ’56 anti-Soviet uprising it seems the vast majority of frum Yidden in Hungary left (mostly to the United States and Israel.)

    #1737469

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    The Reichmann’s were a classic “Hungarian” family.

    #1737444

    laskern
    Participant

    I am Hungarian, who left Hungary at the revolution sixty two years ago and being in America sixty years. My wife o.b.m. enjoyed silver and crystals. She said, I enjoy honoring my guests. I stick to our ashkenazic heritage (maarovis and yoitzros) not swaying an inch saying it on my own. She liked limoges so we got a curio cabinet to display them. She had a ceramic doll collection.

    #1737480

    Joseph
    Participant

    laskern: Why did you leave then? Did most of the remaining frum community leave at that time as well?

    #1737481

    laskern
    Participant

    Oberland is towards Austria, the west of the Danube, whereas Unterland is towards the east, Romania. I was born in Sopron going back to the Romans on the Austrian border. A synagogue from the forteenth century (1325) was discovered there through excavation.

    #1737493

    laskern
    Participant

    Joseph, As you mentioned the Jews left at the October 23, 1956 Hungarian Revolution against the Soviets. Around h 20,000 Jews left then. My father o’h was involved in gettting them through the border.

    #1737495

    laskern
    Participant

    We don’t have a chandelier in the bathroom and I don’r know anyone who does. My mother o’h was a holocaust survivor from Aushwitz. She was not fancy being satisfied with what she had.

    #1737516

    Amil Zola
    Participant

    Laskern, I grew up in NJ and remember the refugees from Camp Kilmer moving to our town. Most of the adults in my family were polyglots and volunteered to help teach English to those who weren’t very familiar with it.

    #1737924

    Joseph
    Participant

    It seems ever since the Chasam Sofer (ein chodesh etc.), Hungarian Yidden have one of the most intense forms of Avoda in Yiddishkeit.

    #1737938

    laskern
    Participant

    The Chasam Sofer emphasized וסרתם מן הדרך ועבדתם אלהים אחרים getting off the walked on way will brring to the worship of a’z אשר לא ידעתם which you don’t realiize.

    #1737991

    Joseph
    Participant

    laskern: You’re an Oberlander or are you an Unterlander?

    #1738082

    laskern
    Participant

    Oberlander what is called a gebrutener ashkenaz (burned in ashkenaz). Went to Wiener and Matersdorfer Yeshivas (Adas Yereim and Chasan Sofer).

    #1738117

    Hungarian Jews were generally considered less scholarly than their polish Or Lithuanian Coreligionists
    Hungarian Jews did a better job in keeping their communities and baale batim religious however

    #1738121

    Joseph
    Participant

    laskern: Vien and Chasan Sofer, despite being Oberlanders, have become much more Chasidic over recent decades. If I’m not mistaken, both of them have switched to Nuach Sefard.

    How do you account for this?

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