April 14, 2020 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #1849584
From my post on page 1:”but anybody with symptoms should be able to get it! Not like in NY.”
I don’t understand why this topic has become about a doc named Zelenco!
Anybody who wants to take HCQ – should be able to!
It’s also very puzzleling why Frum Doctors are taking Cuomo’s stand on HCQ.
We as Frum people will do almost anything to save even one life!
From Contagion Live:
“The initial results from a placebo-controlled trial of hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19 indicate that patients hospitalized with mild illness recovered more quickly with addition of the drug than with placebo at the start of a standard treatment. The results also suggest that hydroxychloroquine might convey some protection against the illness worsening.
Zhan Zhang, MD, of Renmin Hospital of Wuhan University, Wuhan, China, and colleagues reported results from 62 patients randomized to receive either placebo or hydroxychloroquine 200mg twice daily for 5 days on admission in addition to standard treatment consisting of oxygen therapy, and unspecified regimens that could include antiviral and antibacterial agents, and immunoglobulin with or without corticosteroids.
“The data in this study revealed that after 5 days of hydroxychloroquine treatment, the symptoms of patients with COVID-19 were significantly relieved, manifesting as shorten(ing) in the recovery time for cough and fever,” Zhang and colleagues reported.
“At the same time, a larger proportion of patients with pulmonary inflammat(ion) has been partially absorbed in the hydroxychloroquine treatment group, indicating the immune modulation and anti-inflammatory properties of hydroxychloroquine in non-malarial diseases,” the researchers indicated.
The measure of time to clinical recovery was defined as return of normal body temperature and cough relief, maintained for 72 hours. A chest CT, obtained before starting the experimental regimen and 1 day after, on day 6 of hospitalization, was characterized as either exacerbated, unchanged, or improved—with 50% or more reduction in opacification classified as significantly improved.
In comparison to the 31 patients on placebo, the 31 receiving the hydroxychloroquine adjunct to standard treatment were reported to have significantly shorter average time to recover normal body temperature (2.2 vs 3.2 days, P = .0008) and time to cessation of cough (2.0 vs 3.1 days, P = .0016). A larger proportion of patients on hydroxychloroquine than placebo also demonstrated an improved chest CT (80.6% vs 54.8%), with 61.3% of the treatment group having significant improvement. In addition, the 4 patients in the trial who deteriorated from mild to severe acuity were all in the placebo group.
“Despite our small number of cases, the potential of hydroxychloroquine in the treatment of COVID-19 has been partially confirmed,” Zhang and colleagues concluded.
“However, large-scale clinical and basic research is still needed to clarify its specific mechanism and to continuously optimize the treatment plan,” they added”
This data is even better than Gilead’s data on their drug Respervir.April 16, 2020 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #1849808
It was unsafe in the high doses and safer at the lower doses and in BOTH the groups, but they were also giving two cardiotoxic antibiotics, and they did not eliminate patients for having prior cardiac problems (for the purpose of the study).
They could lower the does even further, they do not have to stick to the recommendations.
In that Brazilian study “81 patients….. were hospitalized with severe respiratory syndrome”.
That is not what the Jewish doctor did. He treated his patients before they reached such a state, from what I understand.
From the article,
“Overall, at least two patients in the high-dose group developed ventricular tachycardia, a type of arrhythmia that can lead to sudden cardiac death and none in the low-dose group developed the condition, according to the pre-print study’s data.”
In the low dose group no one died from the toxic effect of the drugs.
Most of the patients died from Coronvirus un-intercepted by heart attack, if that is the right way to put it, not from any adverse reaction to the HCQ.
Significantly the zinc was not mentioned. It is the final bomb against the virus.
6 out of 40 deaths is 15% death rate in the lower HCQ group, but where is the zinc?!
The zinc is there to fight the virus and to not let the patient succumb to the virus rather than making a high dose safer.April 17, 2020 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #1849956
“but they were also giving two cardiotoxic antibiotics, ”
They give ceftriaxone and azithromycin
Azithromycin (like HCQ) is known to cause QT prolongation. Dr. Zelenko too gave Azithromycin
“and they did not eliminate patients for having prior cardiac problems (for the purpose of the study).”
Neither did Dr. Zelenko
At any rate this is way of topic.
If you like the study (that was halted early) go ahead and give low dose HCQ.
I’m not interested in a discussion as to whether HCQ is efficaicous or not (since there isnt enough data)
The topic of this thread. Is solely why not everyone is following Dr. Zelenko’s reported success.April 18, 2020 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #1850217
Please see a youtube video entitled: “LA doctor seeing success with hydroxychloroquine to treat COVID-19“”, wherein Dr. Anthony Cardillo says very sick from coronavirus patients need only 8- 12 hours treatment with HOQ AND ZINC to get completely well!
He also says prescribing doctors must use caution with heart patients.
He says HOQ alone, without ZINC does nothing for the c-virus.
PS in the Brazillian study, there was no zinc, and HOQ was not used, they used Chloroquine which is more toxic than HOQ, with the cardiotoxic antibiotics.April 18, 2020 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #1850248
“Please see a youtube video entitled:”
but before I do, what will it show, what are your trying to prove?
“PS in the Brazillian study, there was no zinc, and HOQ was not used”
YOU cited the study. I have no idea what you were trying to show, or what your point is.April 19, 2020 12:05 am at 12:05 am #1850287
I repeat, “PS, in the Brazillian study, there was no zinc, and HOQ was not used, they used Chloroquine which is more toxic than HOQ, with the cardiotoxic antibiotics.”
So it means as I have said before, that zinc is an essential component with using HCQ, and precautions must be taken against using high doses of the drug for an extended time (The Dr here in the latest video I have cited sees a cure in 8-12 hours) and chloroquine is much more toxic than HCQ, so HCQ should be used instead.
So if more people would be more informed ……. That is the point. Okay?April 19, 2020 12:05 am at 12:05 am #1850286CholentBeansParticipant
Shalom U’vracha I think its about time for me to say, that i’m sick and tired of all this bad news about everyone dying etc. its mamish not healthy for anyone its bad enough with all the niftarim that everyone personally knows , and of corse there is a inyan of emoy anochji batzra and klal yisroel shares the burden but why is there ONLY bad news being posted?/ have we forgotten all the good that Hashem does every second for us??? therefore I think its about time we start a thread where eveyone posts all the good news they heard , and in that zchus we should ONLY have good news AMEN!!! I note that I dint start this thread as a discussion if we should hear only bad news or not, cuz I think/hope everyone is maskim that we should hear good news SO PLS LEAVE YOUR GOOD NEWS/SIMCHOS HERE KLAL YISROEL IS WAITING TO HEAR!!!April 19, 2020 8:28 am at 8:28 am #1850375
“So if more people would be more informed ……. That is the point. Okay?”
sure but why are you addressing it to me?
“The Dr here in the latest video I have cited sees a cure in 8-12 hours”
Lol you do realize he says “we should really reserve it for people who are really sick” (at the 50 second mark) So thank you for finding yet ANOTHER doctor who disagrees with Dr. Z (the subject at hand)
I’m still not clear on what your point is.
for the10th ? 20th? time I never said not to take, it nor that it doesnt help with or without zinc. That isnt the subject of this threadApril 19, 2020 10:16 am at 10:16 am #1850411
I am addressing it to you because you asked what my point is, about why people are so against HOQ. So if more people would be more informed they would not be so against it.
The treatment should be early according to one Dr and only for seriously progressed sick patients according to another DR,(the only disadvantage could be as has been pointed out that the supply of HOQ to people with other chronic ailments who regularly use it might run out).
The zinc is apparently essential, and you have also more or less side stepped that issue.
The dose of HOQ should not be high as the Brazilian study shows, and patients should be carefully watched for heart problems, as well as screened beforehand.
No one is making a song and dance about the cardiotoxicity of the different antibiotics used.April 19, 2020 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #1850443
Hold up you lost me
This thread started with the OP asking “Dr Zelenko is having success wit hHCQ why isnt everyone using it?” (not a verbatim quote)
I replied that His data wasnt necessarily convincing nor applicable to all patients , and given that HCQ t oall is not without its downsides Not everyone is ready to follow him
With me so far?
Then you joined in with a bunch of comments not necessarily realtyed to the subject at hand. Yet for soem reason addressed to me
you introduced a study highlighting the risk of HCQ (as I said)
You cited a Doctor advising AGAINST giving HCQ to thhose not sick (agaisnt Dr. Zelenko)
“The zinc is apparently essential, and you have also more or less side stepped that issue”
i’m not sure what you mean I havent side stepped anything. so give zinc gezunterheit
“and patients should be carefully watched for heart problems, as well as screened beforehand.”
Is Dr. Zelenko doing that
As an aside, my hospital stopped giving Azithromycin along with the HCQ and zinc given the high number of QT prolongations occurring
“So if more people would be more informed they would not be so against it.”
hopefully noone in a position to prescribe it is going to do so, or not do so, based on a post on ywn
And again, as Ive said from the onset Im not “against it” let alone “so against it” I’m just poitning out to the lack of data.
You have done zero to chane that other than provide a studtyy highlighting the RISK of HCQ and a doctor advocating AGAINST giving it to the walking wellApril 19, 2020 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #1850472
“Do you read scientific articles from others, besides yourself?!?”
Part of my professional responsibilities is to critique scientific articles by others. I have reviewed for dozens of medical journals including some of the most famous. I also critique scientific study proposals for the National Institutes of health. I have been doing this for many years.April 19, 2020 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #1850474
“Wang et al reported that chloroquine effectively inhibits SARS-CoV-2 in vitro.”
Lots of drugs work in vitro and are either useless or even dangerous when given to humans.April 19, 2020 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #1850475
“the probability of Zelenko just getting luck is extremely low”
Actually you can’t say that because he is not giving the drug as a part of a controlled research protocol. It is absolutely impossible to estimate the efficacy of a drug from a case series. My first year medical students learn that.April 19, 2020 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #1850476
” someone else reading your comments may think that there is not proven -even anecdotally- that it works. Which is not true, because Hydroxychloroquine has been shown to help prevent at risk patients from ending up in the hospital.”
No, it has NOT been proven that it works at all. And it is known to have serious potential for harm. Until the larger clinical trials are completed we do not have evidence that it is efficacious. (And most of the smaller studies that have reported findings so far do not show cause for optimism.April 19, 2020 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #1850477
Even better, start a clinical trial on patients who look like yours. Or, even better, get them to join one of the existing clinical trials.April 19, 2020 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #1850735
You Ubiq said that your hospital is not medicating coronavirus patients.
Please confirm what your hospital is doing for these patients
Those Dr Zelenko treated were technically all sick, he was being abundantly cautious as he does not use a crystal ball, baruch Hashem!.
“and patients should be carefully watched for heart problems, as well as screened beforehand.”
Is Dr. Zelenko doing that
Why wouldn’t he be doing that, he is a Dr with a brain.
Yes, there are risks but as with all side effects and contraindications. they must be assessed or each patient.
You are yet again avoiding the zinc!
Dr Zelenco had at the time several hundred patients on his “quick, fast” regimen, and no deaths.
Better than the alternative.April 20, 2020 7:50 am at 7:50 am #1850863
“You Ubiq said that your hospital is not medicating coronavirus patients.”
nope I never said that.
In fact I said the EXACT OPPOSITE
From my FIRST POST “I haven’t found it to be working”
you asked: “Have you used it with the z-pack and zinc?”
I replied “Yep used it with everything can think of”
“Please confirm what your hospital is doing for these patients”
when this thread first started almost all ddmitted patients were getting HCQ+zinc+ azithromycin
From my experience they were not doing well. Again, my experience is not at all generalize-able (much like Dr. Zelenkos) as I see the sickest patients, as I said in my first post
currently there are several trials going on including HCQ (yes with zinc but not with Azithromycin anymore unless superimposed bacterial infection is suspected), Remedesivir, convalescent plasma.
“Those Dr Zelenko treated were technically all sick”
Again, they had minor symptoms so it depends what you mean by “sick”
“Why wouldn’t he be doing that, he is a Dr with a brain.”
Because that is a lot of EKG’s Hes on the news so much Its hard ot see how he has time to evaluate all these patients plus get and read EKG’s for all of them
“You are yet again avoiding the zinc!”
I dont know what you mean
“Dr Zelenco had at the time several hundred patients on his “quick, fast””
If they need to get eKG’s and have them read, it isnt ” quick, fast”April 20, 2020 8:39 am at 8:39 am #1850883
Ubiq wrote “As an aside, my hospital stopped giving Azithromycin along with the HCQ and zinc given the high number of QT prolongations occurring”
So please what are they giving? HCQ without antibiotics but with zinc? are these your own Hospital trials you referred to earlier?
Why don’t you contact Dr. Zelenco as to how he is monitoring adverse effects?
Yes, until the quote of yours that I rehashed above in this post, you have ignored zinc.
8-12 hours from Dr. Anthony Cardillo or a few days (perhaps a couple of days, I cannot recall except it was “fast” as well, for recovery from Dr Zelenco, that is great, they may not need an EKK if the patient is recovered and perhaps already off the regimen.April 20, 2020 10:29 am at 10:29 am #1850934
So please what are they giving?
There are several concurrent studies going on so there is no set regimen
HCQ without antibiotics but with zinc?
Yes that is one group , (unless there is a specific indication for an anti biotic but azithromycin is no longer being used as a “default” treatment for covid 19)
“Why don’t you contact Dr. Zelenco”
Because I dont have any question for him.
“Yes, until the quote of yours that I rehashed above in this post, you have ignored zinc.”
I’m not sure what you mean. do you have a question about zinc that I overlooked? What have i ignored ? what about zinc ? Here is some information about zinc “Zinc is a chemical element with the symbol Zn and atomic number 30. Zinc is a slightly brittle metal at room temperature and has a blue-silvery appearance when oxidation is removed. It is the first element in group 12 of the periodic table” If there is any specific question that you have about zinc Id be happy to help if I can.
“8-12 hours from Dr. Anthony Cardillo”
Fantastic, as I said that is not my experience, and DR Cardillo says not to give it to the patients Dr Zelenko is giving. Seems starnge that in a thread as to why not all doctors are lsitening to Dr Zelenko, to support listening you cite A Doctor who says not to do what he is doing. A bit confusing.
“for recovery from Dr Zelenco,”
There was no recovery for Dr Zelenko these were well patients who didnt get sick. Now thats importnant and a great thing no doubt, but not “recovery”April 20, 2020 11:20 am at 11:20 am #1850942
Oh wow how long this thread became!
As I mentioned earlier, even Dr. Zelenko does not make any claims aside from his anecdotal observations, he also agrees that this is not the standard of how medicine is practiced, but it is his opinion that the deviation is appropriate due to this being a pandemic.
But it is important to that Dr. Zelenko is dealing with a different group of people than that of the hospitals (who some of them did run studies on Hydroxy for Covid19 patients).
Dr. Zelenko is dealing with stable patients that do not (yet) require hospitalization, they are not suffering from respiratory failure, extreme hypoxia, hypercoagulation, sepsis and organ failure, or cytokine storm.
In fact, he claims that his treatment regiment is prevented his patients from becoming so sick so they have all these other complications that come along with the advanced stages of the disease.
The hospitals are dealing with patients that are already more advanced with the disease to the point that they require hospitalization.
This is why it makes it difficult to compare the success rate as there are different objectives for each group.
Also, not only is Dr. Zelenko still working on figuring this out and gathering anecdotal data, I am sure he understands that taking these medications have side effects, some benign that only cause people to be uncomfortable and others that are more severe such as changes in the electrical conduction of the heart that makes the patient vulnerable to deadly dysrhythmias.
Like everything in life, especially with medicine Risk vs Benefit has to be taken into consideration.
My point is, while this might or might not be as effective as the claims are, it for sure is not a simple straightforward treatment regiment for any group of patients.April 20, 2020 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #1851193
Ubiq, you wrote:
“Also, not only is Dr. Zelenko still working on figuring this out and gathering anecdotal data, I am sure he understands that taking these medications have side effects, some benign that only cause people to be uncomfortable and others that are more severe such as changes in the electrical conduction of the heart that makes the patient vulnerable to deadly dysrhythmias”
Just have a look at this video of DR Zelenko speaking on youtube on April 10 ‘020 entitled :GVA conference. He only medicates high-risk patients with symptoms or younger patients who look very ill.
He says the negative side effects are “theoretical in his experience.” So he is treating patients before they get desperately sick who do not need necessarily hospitalization immediately but look as though they might need hospitalization if he doesn’t treat them immediately.April 21, 2020 8:44 am at 8:44 am #1851280
How many days from when someone 65 or older first has symptoms till they end up in the ICU?
How many of them are feeling ill enough to bother calling their primary care doctor first before ending up in the ER?
How many people with mild cases call their primary care doctors before they need to go to the ER and then in the next few days progress to going to the ER?
There are just so many questions here that Zelenko does not address and why without a proper study his results are hard to make heads or tails out of.
If lack of oxygen occurs sometime between the 5th-8th day from first symptoms and that is when most go to the ER, it raises a very significant question, by what day of symptoms do people typically consult a doctor. I suspect that the first few days people don’t worry and then when it progresses or remains about a week they finally call their doctor (in numerous of Zelenko’s cases where they details the case history there have been symptoms for 4+ days as reported by the patient). But if that is the case, then by the time people call their doctor, if they are not being told to get to the ER, they are most likely not in the cohort that will ever go to the ER.
Further, when you look at actual cases Dr. Zelenko put out, there is a significant question as to what percent of his cases are not actually COVID-19. Recall he is treating almost anyone over 60 with symptoms of a cold, it is only those under 60 that have to present more serious symptoms to be treated.
Basically, if he treated about 400 patients with his treatment (while he had over a 1,000 patients, he only treated the ones over 60 or those younger with stronger signs of COVID-19, which was closer to 400), and 50% of them actually don’t have COVID-19 (whatever data he had from KJ does not necessarily extrapolate to the general population, hence his conclusions that people likely have COVID-19 are questionable), that means he only treated 200 patients with COVID-19. If the majority of the cases that result in death already went to the ER before they call him, then perhaps it is equivalent to treating 50 or so older patients. If 5% of these patients are expected to die, well that brings us to 2-3 deaths. Well I think he said 2 patients died…
Play with the numbers however you like (I acknowledge my numbers are likely off, but without better data, kind of hard to know exactly how), but without an proper study here, it does not take much to argue his results are anecdotal.
Any family doctors here, who get calls from patients over 60 with COVID-19 symptoms (not just confirmed tests) before you have to recommend they go to the ER? What percent of those patients eventually go on to being intubated or dying? That would perhaps help make some sense out of Zelenko’s data. Not saying that is enough by itself, but maybe it can tell us if his numbers are within what we would expect or they are truly off-the-chart and worthy of consideration.
Look, I want his treatment to work and if someone was sick with this would be open to trying this treatment, however the science matters. If this does not actually work, then we need to focus on other solutions. If it does work then we can reopen the country. You can’t make these decisions just based on his anecdotal results.April 21, 2020 10:16 am at 10:16 am #1851332
Dr Zelenko only medicates high-risk patients with symptoms or younger patients who look very ill.
But he has also developed a regimen for prophylactic treatment against COVID 19, with different doses but without the antibiotic, for medical and nursing staff.April 21, 2020 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #1851380
“Ubiq, you wrote:
“Also, not only is Dr. Zelenko …” No I didnt write that ”
However it is an excellent post and I agree with it
“He says the negative side effects are “theoretical in his experience.”
Then he needs more experience. (and raises questions about his supposed checking their EKG’s)
” but look as though they might need hospitalization if he doesn’t treat them immediately.”
not sure what that means. This is a nonesenical claim and is one that you made up .
He is treating those at high risk but mild symptoms who may have covid. period.
does this mean it works for all? – Of course not
does this mean it is safe for all – Of course not
does this mean the benefit outweigh the risk? – Maybe not enough dataApril 21, 2020 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #1851434
Oh Charlie, -“Lots of drugs work in vitro and are either useless or even dangerous when given to humans.”
True, but Not HCQ.
“No, it has NOT been proven that it works at all.
Until the larger clinical trials are completed we do not have evidence that it is efficacious.”
“And it is known to have serious potential for harm.”
Let’s see why everything you posted is NOT True.
They use HCQ for Lupus & RA – so it’s pretty Safe.
And it has been proven that it works!
“The initial results from a placebo-controlled trial of hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19 indicate that patients hospitalized with mild illness recovered more quickly with addition of the drug than with placebo at the start of a standard treatment.”April 21, 2020 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #1851594Reb EliezerParticipantApril 21, 2020 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #1851605antibiasParticipant
You are making the same mistake as many. Dr Zelenko uses it as early as possible. Here it was used late, in the hospitalization stage…April 21, 2020 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #1851625
RE – The problem is that people have Negious, esp. against Trump.
They are going to have a lot of studies that will try to disprove what he said.
If you paid attention to my posts – you’d see that I only recommended HCQ together with Zinc and early on in the disease.
They have proved this in-vivo. I posted the study above.
I know the Trump haters will do anything to disprove his words.
But the facts are – you really didn’t need a big Human study to prove that it works because of this NIH Article:
“Hydroxychloroquine, a less toxic derivative of chloroquine, is effective in inhibiting SARS-CoV-2 infection in vitro.”April 21, 2020 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #1851651
Saying people will try to disprove something because Trump said it, means you have to suspect that others will try to prove something because Trump said it. Basically, your very criticism negates what you are trying to argue for.April 21, 2020 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #1851652
“Also, not only is Dr. Zelenko …”
No I didnt write says ubiquitin, and ubiq yes, you are correct it was 2scents who wrote that.
Ubiq then did write about ” but look as though they might need hospitalization if he doesn’t treat them immediately.”
the following: “not sure what that means. This is a nonesenical claim and is one that you made up .”
No, no ubiq, the Dr, he has a heart, he can see the way things progress, he reacts with a brain and with compassion, but you ubiq see the end game when it is almost, just almost too late, but still not quite too late.
When people wait to confirm with tests, which are sometimes even unavailable, they loose time.
Timing is of the essence.April 22, 2020 10:37 am at 10:37 am #1851801
“Saying people will try to disprove something because Trump said it, means you have to suspect that others will try to prove something because Trump said it. Basically, your very criticism negates what you are trying to argue for.”
Well said, science and medicine should not be political, there are enough biases involved with everything that we do, adding a political one is detrimental.April 22, 2020 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #1851829Jersey JewParticipant
Dr Zelenko has success with almost 2,000 people. I’m sorry I don’t remember the exact number. Unfortunately, two people passed away nebach. In addition, this zinc, there’s also azithromycin, and of course the hydroxychloroquine. ALL THREE and each for their own reason.
We know this concoction has worked in other locations as well because there are many doctors that have used it and people are walking around today because of it. I strongly feel that the doctors who are the naysayers are the really the jealous ones who didn’t think of it and who unfortunately lost patience that they shouldn’t have. Instead of them being a bunch of people with attitudes who think that they are the healers, they should probably pull their knowledge and actually listen to other doctors who are having success with various types of medications.April 22, 2020 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #1851832
Mattisyahu -“Saying people will try to disprove something because Trump said it, means you have to suspect that others will try to prove something because Trump said it. Basically, your very criticism negates what you are trying to argue for.”
Not at all! This whole topic started Because one Doc named Zelenco decided to use it. Trump should have never said anything about Covid19 treatment.
He’s a Baal Gaivah.
I tried many times to sway the topic, but to No avail!
What Trump should have done was demand HCQ to be approved from the FDA for Covid19, from the evidence that I posted above.
As as a matter of fact, the insanity from Gov. agencies to get anything approved is Not Normal!
At least the FDA should approve HCQ as an emergent treatment.April 22, 2020 12:57 pm at 12:57 pm #1851848
“At least the FDA should approve HCQ as an emergent treatment.”
Rather let physicians prescribe treatments as they see fit, even if it is an off label use. A lot of treatments are off labels uses and are commonly done in medicine.
Politicians should not do anything to influence treatment guidelines, it is not their area of expertise.April 22, 2020 1:33 pm at 1:33 pm #1851876
“Dr Zelenko has success with almost 2,000 people. I’m sorry I don’t remember the exact number.”
whats your source for that. Last I heard it was a few hundred. and on Dennis Prager recently he said he treated 1000 patients which included 2 groups the low risk and high risk only gave high risk so agian yo uhave a few hundred patients with mild syptoms (though at high risk)
where do you get the almost 2000 people ?
” but you ubiq see the end game when it is almost, just almost too late, but still not quite too late.”
I dont know what end game you are referring toApril 22, 2020 1:38 pm at 1:38 pm #1851881🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
Ubiq – is the extensive kidney damage you have seen a side effect of the covid or is the virus attacking the kidneys?April 22, 2020 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #1851880
See 2scents reply. For Trump or any politician to demand the FDA should approve or disapprove a drug for any reason is very troublesome as it would add a political dimension to medical decisions. The FDA has to made medical decisions outside political concerns. This has long-reaching implications for safety in medicine that go well beyond the current situation.
As an aside, a doctor can prescribe HCQ without the FDA doing anything. The issue here I understand is limited supply of HCQ (hence various restrictions placed on prescribing it) and questions about its safety. Not saying anything about whether the dosage that Zelenko uses poses any real safety issues or not, but there are safety issues with HCQ and several studies using HCQ have been stopped due to safety issues.
Going back to the evidence issue here about whether this works. I discussed a bit above why I think results Zelenko and others have with this might not mean anything much. Without a proper study it is difficult to know what to make of all this. There is a study that is starting or has started already that is looking into this as a preventative treatment with medical workers (as Dr. Zelenko recommends), but initial results are not expected to be published until a year from now. Perhaps if there are results that really stand out in a short-time they may provide an update sooner, but we are likely talking about a few months at minimum, not weeks.April 22, 2020 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #1851954
“Ubiq – is the extensive kidney damage you have seen a side effect of the covid or is the virus attacking the kidneys?”
nobody seems to know for certain. (There was just a webinar by ASN – leading nephrology group in the US, just last night!)
The prevailing thought is it is a side effect due to patient being in shock, low flow state leading to ATN (Acute tubular necrosis, sort of the similar to a heart attack but of the kidneys) most biopsies and post mortems have supported this.
I (and all colleagues IVe spoken to) have seen many many patients who’s blood pressures were not that sick (ie not in shock,) but with rapidly failing kidneys far out of proportion to their overall presentation.
the SARS-CoV-2 is known to bind to a receptor found in the kidneys (Ace2) and some theorize that it may be directly attacking that way
Another theory is that these pats seem to be hypercoaguable, menaing have a high propensity to form blood clots . could they be forming tiny blood clots int he kidneys?April 22, 2020 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #1851983🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
Ubiq- i wonder if we’ll ever know. I was thinking about all the varying information I got from people regarding symptoms and things i read that doctors said didn’t quite shtim. Some people had brown urine and sputum, i know i had weeks of fire burning acid bath in my stomach (no, not heartburn) and i as well as others complained of back pains that we wondered if it was kidney related. So much unknown, and so much is anecdotal. People recorded test results but didn’t really ask for symptoms.April 22, 2020 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1852050
Mattisyahu -“The FDA has to made medical decisions outside political concerns.”
But do they?!?April 22, 2020 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #1852071
2scents – “Rather let physicians prescribe treatments as they see fit, even if it is an off label use. A lot of treatments are off labels uses and are commonly done in medicine.”
I’d agree with that in a Normal world. But what’s going to happen, in NYS it’s already happening, they don’t fill Scripts for Covid19. Also insurance will decline payment for tx. of Covid19!April 22, 2020 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #1852084
Agreed. no question the varying presentations is bizzare. And while GENERALLY younger/healthier tend to do better I have seen too many in their 40’s and younger with “no past medcial history” unfortunalty not doing well (in spite of HCQ + zinc)
The data from china obviosuly has to be taken with a heaping mound of salt, but I think the picture will become clearer in the coming months (though granted probably not compltly)April 22, 2020 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #1852133
2scents said ‘Politicians should not do anything to influence treatment guidelines, it is not their area of expertise.’
but they can get advice and of course some also have brains.
ubiq said ‘ready
” but you ubiq see the end game when it is almost, just almost too late, but still not quite too late.”
I dont know what end game you are referring to’
come on ubiq, mes, that is what.
From an article on ywn today-‘ It seems that some otherwise improving patients experience rapid deterioration, which blindsides doctors and leaves family members mourning in complete shock.”she was in relatively light condition. She was not on a respirator.Just a half an hour later, she was gone’
Dr Poor: “They all had this striking physiology where they had difficulty getting oxygen into the blood and getting carbon dioxide out, but notably their lungs were not stiff,” Poor said.Instead of stiff lungs, the Mount Sinai investigation found the most seriously ill patients were suffering from “markedly abnormal coagulation.” In other words, blood clots were blocking the vessels that carry oxygen to multiple organ systems.”April 23, 2020 8:35 am at 8:35 am #1852221
“From an article on ywn today-‘ It seems that some otherwise improving patients experience rapid deterioration….”
We are going in circles. Yes Ive seen many many many such cases. but again vrtually ALL of the ones Ive seen HAD been on Hydroxychlorquine + zinc (and originally on azithromycin)
I have seen them go downhill, and fast in spite of the above. Dr Zelenko hasn’t Neither his experience nor mine puts the issue to rest.
We need studies. I’m not sure why you are having trouble with thisApril 23, 2020 9:22 am at 9:22 am #1852279
Poor said “Instead of stiff lungs, the Mount Sinai investigation found the most seriously ill patients were suffering from “markedly abnormal coagulation.”
“MOST OF THE SERIOUSLY ILL PATIENTS”
But Dr Zelenko is beginning treatment before they get to that stage.
That is the point. And further they say it might be a “blood” disease rather than a virus.
As for the the dear 52 year old lady who was not even on a respirator, in the excerpt I posted in my previous post, there could possibly be other factors but we do not do autopsies.April 23, 2020 10:52 am at 10:52 am #1852350
“That is the point. ”
I don’t understand your point. The patients Ive seen were also on HCQ “before they got that stage”
As I made clear from the onset. I don’t initate treatment for COvid, im a consultant who gets called in if/wehn they develop kidney problems. Almost ALL the patients ive seen have been on HCQ + zinc as soon as they showed up to the ER with fever/SOB/hypoxia etc
Let me try a new approach
A There are patients who get HCQ and get better
B There are patients who do not get HCQ and get better
C There are patients who get HCQ and do not get better
D There are patients who do not get HCQ and do not get better
I assume you agree that all 4 of the above patients exist. Please correct me if this assumption is incorrect.
Dr. Zelenko has seen mostly group A and as such is a strong proponent of it
Does that prove HCQ helps? Of course not If not for HCQ, what group would they have been in B or D ? Without more data how can you know. (keep in mind the vast vast vast majority of patients B”H fall in Group B)
I have seen mostly those in group C does that prove HCQ doesnt help ? of course not. These are aptients who almost definitely would have been in group DApril 23, 2020 10:55 pm at 10:55 pm #1852730
I wrote previously-
“Poor said “Instead of stiff lungs, the Mount Sinai investigation found the most seriously ill patients were suffering from “markedly abnormal coagulation.”
“MOST OF THE SERIOUSLY ILL PATIENTS”
But Dr. Zelenko is beginning treatment before they get to that stage”-
-much earlier than you appear to suggest as you keep saying most patients infected with COVID 19 do not get sick or recover.
But we are trying to avoid deaths so it would be better to intervene earlier if it will make a difference which it does appear to be doing. Dr Zelenko had 2 deaths out of 1450 patients. In the 405 high risk group a mortality of 5% would have been expected but 2 people died unfortunately, much less than the 20 expected. This is from the video. ‘Vladimir Zev Zelenko: What works to defeat the virus? How to prevent or weaken the illness?’ at the very beginning.
From “Doctors warn coronavirus causing blood clots and sudden strokes in young healthy patients”:
“Dr Thomas Oxley, a neurosurgeon in the Mount Sinai Health System in New York, said his team usually treats less than two stroke patients under the age of 50 every month. But in the last two weeks they have seen five young coronavirus patients who suffered a sudden stroke despite being otherwise well.
“The virus seems to be causing increased clotting in the large arteries, leading to severe stroke,” Dr Oxley told CNN. “Our report shows a seven-fold increase in incidence of sudden stroke in young patients during the past two weeks. Most of these patients have no past medical history and were at home with either mild symptoms (or in two cases, no symptoms) of COVID.
“All tested positive. Two of them delayed calling an ambulance.””April 24, 2020 12:41 am at 12:41 am #1852794MammeleParticipant
Ubiq: if Dr. Zelenko’s numbers are true, I think you’re missing a critical point, or trying to oversimplify this. The key point being repeated in news articles is that most YOUNG & HEALTHY people will recover. Dr. Zelenko is only medicating those with pre-existing conditions, advanced age or both (with perhaps a few exceptions).
Yes it’s true only a clinical trial blah blah blah will give us a true picture. But in a few months hopefully this nightmare will be over, and even if it Ch”v comes back, it will be too late for way too many whose lives may be saved now.April 24, 2020 3:04 am at 3:04 am #1852819
apnoea “black boxes” which are modified and CPAP machines (continuous positive airway pressure) rather than ventilators. see-
Hero doctors in Warrington develop new COVID-19 treatment that is saving lives-April 24, 2020 8:24 am at 8:24 am #1852843
“as you keep saying most patients infected with COVID 19 do not get sick or recove”
This is a fact, that I was not aware was in dispute. Are you saying otherwise?
“But we are trying to avoid deaths so it would be better to intervene earlier if it will make a difference ”
but there is a critical caveat in that sentence see if you can find it..
“Dr Zelenko had 2 deaths out of 1450 patients”
This is a very misleading claim.
He only gave his treatment to 450 inclduign those who didnt meet inclusion criteria is not typicly how study data is reported.
” In the 405 high risk group a mortality of 5% would have been expected but 2 people died unfortunately, much less than the 20 expected.”
how do we know it wasn’t chance? How do we know it wasn’t something else about them?
“From “Doctors warn coronavirus causing blood clots and sudden strokes in young healthy patients”:
Im not sure what these last 2 paragraphs are adding
” I think you’re missing a critical point, or trying to oversimplify this. ”
It IS quite simple:
There is not enough data. period Dr Zelenko would probably agree. (though hed add what do we lose, which is a fair point as IVe said from the onset)
“he key point being repeated in news articles is that most YOUNG & HEALTHY people will recover. Dr. Zelenko is only medicating those with pre-existing conditions, advanced age or both”
Most OF THEM recover too! Sadly not as many as the young and health y group. But I havent seen any data that >50% of those with pre-existing conditions, or advanced age who get infected succumb. Have you?
“Yes it’s true only a clinical trial blah blah blah will give us a true picture”
That is all Ive been saying I’m so glad we agree.
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