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Here is a hypothetical question for everyone to ponder.
“Let us assume the Three Oaths (Ketubot 111a) are actually a halacha applicable today and the creation of Medinat Yisrael was a violation of the Oaths.” (A view which I do not hold)
Okay, we and those before us have “sinned” by violating said Oaths. So what should we do now? Leave Eretz Yisrael and move to Chutz L’Aretz? “Absolutely not, because according to that same Gemara, one is not allowed to leave E”Y.”
Whether wrong or not, it appears that Hashem has given his approval to return to the land, b’di’avad.
Which leads me to ask, what other examples in our history did the nation or individual Jews violate the will of Hashem, only to later be judged as acting correctly.
I think I found an example. In Shmuel I, the nation says to Shmuel “תְּ� ָ�”־לָּ֥� וּ מֶ�-לֶךְ..”
Hashem tells Shmuel
“…כִּי־אֹתִ֥י מָאֲס�-וּ מִמְּלֹ֥ךְ עֲלֵי�”ֶֽם”
As a consequence the rule of a human king from the House of David becomes the foundation of Jewish nationalism, which will culminate, G-d willing soon, in the arrival of Mashiach ben David.
I cannot understand how any rational reading of Kesubos 111B could yield the thought that the three shevuos are still in force. Clearly the third oath has been violated by the Umos HaOlam.
In recent months (or maybe weeks), I have avoided
discussing this subject, to avoid endless machlokes.Because sometimes shalom is more important
than being right, or trying to be right.By asking this question, you have risked ruining
a rare De Facto truce on this web site.Sorry about that.
Am Yisroel didnt come back to EY bdieved… thats impossible. It was for sure lichatchila.
If the remnant of Jews living in golus was in Uganada or pakistan or the like, and not in the Islamic Republic of New York, they wouldve long ago found a way out of the 3 shavous that anyway dont apply beacsue of the reason that redleg mentioned.
IAnd B”H the avoda zara of the dollar is being eradicated from the world. For those of you who are not in the category of שאלו שלום ירושלים be aware that your holy dollar buys much less shekels now. If you guys dont wake up soon, there will be no way you will be able to purchase a home in EY. When you run for your lives and need to leave everything behind, you will come to EY and live in tents and then blame the tziyonim for not providing you with proper housing with all the amenities. WAKE UP! and stop telling me all thats wrong in EY. The sitra achra is freaking out becasue its on the verge of detsruction. dont complain. Come and help!!
Those people would say Israel should give up control to America (or even Jordan) the Arabs dont hate Jews they want to control the whole area and have Jews subservient to them
Once they have that they’ll stop bothering us
The 3 oaths is on the klal, the issur to leave e”y is on the prat. Although one can violate the three oaths himself, the nature of it is a klal oriented oath. Just a thought.
In addition, if living in e”y will result in a government gain, it might be a violation of the three oaths, because the government is actively violating the oaths.It’s quite clear how the ראשו� ים and other א�–רו� ים define the שלש ש�’ועות. Satmar has their own שיט�” in which they have a unique definition of �–ומ�” and מרי�”�”. So why not redefine the איסור of leaving ארץ ישראל? Indeed, Moshe Ber Beck (influence by, but not Satmar) held that it was forbidden to live in Israel because he felt it was impossible to escape benefit from the State, and it’s equally impossible to benefit the State via taxes.
It’s clear that MBB, who was condemned by Satmar, is a fringe figure. Also of note, is a statement of the Satmar rebbe where he writes that nothing really can be done about the State except to pray for משי�— as giving the country to the Arabs would mean another Holocaust.
That being the case, I don’t know of any mainstream position (left, right or center) that advocates leaving the country en masse simply because there’s a Zionist government.
@Evalimoshavlo I’m no prophet like you. I don’t know what’s going to happen. It wouldn’t shatter my faith if we were exiled from the land again. Having said that theres still a mitzva to live in ey. Bh I have zoche for the past 5 years
“”Let us assume the Three Oaths (Ketubot 111a) are actually a halacha applicable today and the creation of Medinat Yisrael was a violation of the Oaths.” …..Okay, we and those before us have “sinned” by violating said Oaths. So what should we do now?”
IT is very hard to imagine such a hypothetical, but answer is simple, we would look at where that halacha is brought Shulchan Aruch, Rif, Rambam, Rosh etc and see how it is brought see what the nosei keilim say on it
@redleg:
There are at least three oaths there, and they are totally independent of each other for numerous reasons. Besides, unlike the oath of not rebelling against the nations (which is still in effect regardless), the oaths of not ascending en masse and not taking political sovereignty are obviously totally irrelevant to the nations’ oath of not overly subjugating.——————
““Let us assume the Three Oaths (Ketubot 111a) are actually a halacha applicable today and the creation of Medinat Yisrael was a violation of the Oaths.” (A view which I do not hold)”
As indicated many times on these boards, the oaths are absolutely applicable liHalacha, regardless of what you think you hold. You might also hold that the prohibition against worshiping idols is not in effect, but that doesn’t change that it still very much is in effect – according to all Torah authorities.
“Okay, we and those before us have “sinned” by violating said Oaths. So what should we do now? Leave Eretz Yisrael and move to Chutz L’Aretz? “Absolutely not, because according to that same Gemara, one is not allowed to leave E”Y.””
No comment; ask your LOR.
“Whether wrong or not, it appears that Hashem has given his approval to return to the land, b’di’avad.”
The eigel worshipers thought so too. No, that’s not at all what it appears. The forever Zionist wars and forever “existential danger” the Zionists constantly mention would not lead one to believe that Hashem has nullified any part of His Torah in this regard, of course.
“Which leads me to ask, what other examples in our history did the nation or individual Jews violate the will of Hashem, only to later be judged as acting correctly….I think I found an example. In Shmuel I, the nation says to Shmuel “תְּ� ָ�”־לָּ֥� וּ מֶ�-לֶךְ..”…As a consequence the rule of a human king from the House of David becomes the foundation of Jewish nationalism, which will culminate, G-d willing soon, in the arrival of Mashiach ben David. ”
That’s odd. There is an explicit mitzvah in the Torah to “place a king… “, as in “Som taSim alecha melech”. So, no, the problem there was their intent in their request of the prophet, not fulfilling a mitzvah in the Torah.
chaim_baruch: For a short time, the machlokes about
The Modern State of Israel had stopped on this web site.
That silence was beautiful and valuable.But you started the machlokes again, and now it will probably
last for at least another 3 years, more likely another 5 years.This unnecessary machlokes, which chaim_baruch
foolishly started again, will certainly cause many
violations of Torah law, including:Lashon HaRa, Motzi Shem Ra, sheker, onaas devarim,
laitzanus, insults, sinas chinam, public humiliation,
and machlokes itself is a severe sin.And it will probably NEVER STOP, because too many
people who participate DO NOT KNOW WHEN TO STOP.
__________________________________________________________PS: chaim_baruch: I actually agree with you that
the Three Oaths are NOT to be followed, in our times.But you still should not have re-started this machlokes,
because maintaining shalom is more important than being right.HaKatan said this on 2026 June 3 at 11:21 AM:
“There are at least three oaths there,
and they are totally independent of each other
for numerous reasons.”
__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:The famed Rabbi Shlomo Kluger explains that
if the gentiles do not observe their oath,
then we are exempt from ours.Nobody who learned about the Holocaust can
take the gentile’s oath seriously, as if they did not
“oppress us too much”, so we clearly are no longer
obligated by our oath, and it is no longer “before its time”.__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:Rabbi Teichtal, in his work, “Em HaBanim Smeicha,” explaijns:
Although the Jews were sworn not to enter Eretz Yisrael forcefully,
the nations of the world were also sworn not to persecute the Jews too much.Over the course of the exile, the Jews were severely persecuted by the gentiles.
Because the gentiles violated their oath, the Jews were no longer bound by their oath.__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:Rabbi Yitzchak Breitowitz also said that:
The Three Oaths DO NOT APPLY because the nations of the world
violated their side of the deal, by persecuting Jews excessively.[For example: The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisitions of 1391 and 1492,
Islamic persecutions, the Chmielnicki Massacres, and The Holocaust.]__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:HaKatan knows very well that many Rabbis disagree with him,
when he says that:“There are at least three oaths there,
and they are totally independent of each other…”.He has seen that belief refuted many times, in this Coffee Room,
but he chooses to ignore all refutations,
because he is a stubborn shameless liar.I commend @SQUARE_ROOT for his post regarding shalom and no machlokes. Thank you.
To Hakatan
I also agree with SQUARE_ROOT that we should avoid Machlokes.
@SQUARE_ROOT
Again, the oaths are all independent of each other, both our oaths between themselves and ours versus theirs.And Rav Kluger obviously did not say that and the others are anyways irrelevant in the face of the Torah giants including rishonim!!!! who ruled otherwise.
After the Balfour Declaration, in HaTekufah HaGedolah,
pages 174 to 175, Rabbi Meir Simcha of Dvinsk
(born in 1843 CE & died in 1926 CE) wrote that
“the fear of The [Three] Oaths has departed.”
He expressed his approval of Religious Zionism
in Sare HaMeah, Volume 6, pages 233 to 234.Rabbi Chaim Vital says clearly in Shaar Hakdamos
that The Three Oaths only applied for 1,000 years.HaKatan said this on 2026 June 4 at 10:05 AM:
“I commend @SQUARE_ROOT for his post
regarding shalom and no machlokes.
Thank you.”__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!!
THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!!If you and UJM and SomeJewIKnow will agree to
NOT discuss The Three Oaths and Zionism vs anti-Zionism,
then I will also agree to NOT discuss those controversial topics
that cause us Jews to sin against each other.And through the merit of making Shalom LeShem Shamayim,
may G*D forgive us all, and help us all, and send us all
the Geulah Sheleimah, As Soon As Possible (ASAP).Referencing the request for a king is a bad point. It is actually a Mitzvah to appoint a king. But it was bad timing and in bad taste to request it when they had a great central authority in Shmuel Hanavi.
There is no Hetter to tag a “Agada” label onto a Sugya discussing what you may or may not do, just to neutralize it.
The idea of making all three oaths conditions on each other is not spelled out, and is far from “simple reading”, but some have expressed this opinion.
Having said that, it is very likely, and I belive it to be the case, that the oaths were not transgressed.
The Steipler ZL did say that after the fact, it is a reality and we should not focus on the Issur anymore.
Satmar does not believe in dismantling the state, wince it would be dangerous.
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