Hypothetical question for everyone to ponder.

I cannot understand how any rational reading of Kesubos 111B could yield the thought that the three shevuos are still in force. Clearly the third oath has been violated by the Umos HaOlam.

Am Yisroel didnt come back to EY bdieved… thats impossible. It was for sure lichatchila.
If the remnant of Jews living in golus was in Uganada or pakistan or the like, and not in the Islamic Republic of New York, they wouldve long ago found a way out of the 3 shavous that anyway dont apply beacsue of the reason that redleg mentioned.
I

Those people would say Israel should give up control to America (or even Jordan) the Arabs dont hate Jews they want to control the whole area and have Jews subservient to them

Once they have that they’ll stop bothering us

It’s quite clear how the ראשו� ים and other א�–רו� ים define the שלש ש�’ועות. Satmar has their own שיט�” in which they have a unique definition of �–ומ�” and מרי�”�”. So why not redefine the איסור of leaving ארץ ישראל? Indeed, Moshe Ber Beck (influence by, but not Satmar) held that it was forbidden to live in Israel because he felt it was impossible to escape benefit from the State, and it’s equally impossible to benefit the State via taxes.

It’s clear that MBB, who was condemned by Satmar, is a fringe figure. Also of note, is a statement of the Satmar rebbe where he writes that nothing really can be done about the State except to pray for משי�— as giving the country to the Arabs would mean another Holocaust.

That being the case, I don’t know of any mainstream position (left, right or center) that advocates leaving the country en masse simply because there’s a Zionist government.

“”Let us assume the Three Oaths (Ketubot 111a) are actually a halacha applicable today and the creation of Medinat Yisrael was a violation of the Oaths.” …..Okay, we and those before us have “sinned” by violating said Oaths. So what should we do now?”

IT is very hard to imagine such a hypothetical, but answer is simple, we would look at where that halacha is brought Shulchan Aruch, Rif, Rambam, Rosh etc and see how it is brought see what the nosei keilim say on it

chaim_baruch: For a short time, the machlokes about
The Modern State of Israel had stopped on this web site.
That silence was beautiful and valuable.

But you started the machlokes again, and now it will probably
last for at least another 3 years, more likely another 5 years.

This unnecessary machlokes, which chaim_baruch
foolishly started again, will certainly cause many
violations of Torah law, including:

Lashon HaRa, Motzi Shem Ra, sheker, onaas devarim,
laitzanus, insults, sinas chinam, public humiliation,
and machlokes itself is a severe sin.

And it will probably NEVER STOP, because too many
people who participate DO NOT KNOW WHEN TO STOP.
__________________________________________________________

PS: chaim_baruch: I actually agree with you that
the Three Oaths are NOT to be followed, in our times.

But you still should not have re-started this machlokes,
because maintaining shalom is more important than being right.

I commend @SQUARE_ROOT for his post regarding shalom and no machlokes. Thank you.

@SQUARE_ROOT
Again, the oaths are all independent of each other, both our oaths between themselves and ours versus theirs.

And Rav Kluger obviously did not say that and the others are anyways irrelevant in the face of the Torah giants including rishonim!!!! who ruled otherwise.

Rabbi Chaim Vital says clearly in Shaar Hakdamos
that The Three Oaths only applied for 1,000 years.

Referencing the request for a king is a bad point. It is actually a Mitzvah to appoint a king. But it was bad timing and in bad taste to request it when they had a great central authority in Shmuel Hanavi.

There is no Hetter to tag a “Agada” label onto a Sugya discussing what you may or may not do, just to neutralize it.

The idea of making all three oaths conditions on each other is not spelled out, and is far from “simple reading”, but some have expressed this opinion.

Having said that, it is very likely, and I belive it to be the case, that the oaths were not transgressed.

The Steipler ZL did say that after the fact, it is a reality and we should not focus on the Issur anymore.

Satmar does not believe in dismantling the state, wince it would be dangerous.

@square_root

also, to be clear about the haluche, Jews are not allowed to make shulem with reshoyim kofrim like zionists.

those who actively fight zionist heresy, especially fighting against the type called “dati leumi”, along with those who pray for their destruction, the destruction of their state, and the destruction of their soldiers three times a day in shmoneh esrai, are not sinning against each other when they respond to the minim who continue to push jews towards other religions on this website.

There seems to be no point in going through each post when that has been done multiple times in past threads yet Zionists just mindlessly regurgitate whatever idolatrous propaganda they find, disgracing our holy Torah in service of their idol, rather than wanting to actually know and believe the truth.

But just in case:

@SQUARE_ROOT
Rav Meir Simcha wrote in the context of the recently-issued Balfour Declaration, as quoted, that the “FEAR of the oaths” was no longer, not that the “oaths themselves” were no longer. That implies, of course, that the oaths were not only in effect until then (unlike your error in Rav Chaim Vital) but that they remained in effect, only that the “FEAR” of violating them had been allayed. And he was specifically referring to the oath of rebelling against the nations, since that declaration stated that the Brits allowed Jews to live in Mandatory Palestine.

Rav Chaim Vital did not say that at all. Go ahead and quote that piece.

————–

@HaLeivi:
Who has expressed the opinion that any of the oaths are dependent on each other, never mind all of them? How in the world could anyone logically state that dechikas haKeitz, for example, is muttar if the goyim terribly oppress Jews? That’s absurd.

Of course all the oaths were flagrantly transgressed by the wicked Zionists.

That’s another Zionist myth. The Steipler never said that. He said that “VOTING” was okay for internal elections as citizens once the State was already established. He never stated that it was muttar to have that idolatrous rebellion against G-d once it was already made.

All believing Jews certainly do believe that, but only in a way that causes no harm to any Jew.

AAQ, that’s true and sad. I try to address the point itself, so that other people can see more sides. I know that the person I’m addressing won’t change their mind. Therefore, when the point is obvious and when the conversation goes in circles there’s no need to continue.

Shadow12, that’s two points. One is that after the fact it doesn’t matter at all, and so you can join the government. Satmar, on the other hand, also does not believe in actually giving back land or actually dismantling the state, since it is pikuach nefesh, but they still do hold the state to be an ongoing problem.

However, I’m not sure I understand the pikuach nefesh thing in Satmar thought, since they hold the three oaths to be equivalent to שלש עבירות חמורות.

If HaKatan and UJM and SomeJewIKnow will agree to
NOT discuss The Three Oaths and Zionism vs anti-Zionism,
then I will also agree to NOT discuss those controversial topics
that cause us Jews to sin against each other.

And through the merit of making Shalom LeShem Shamayim,
may G*D forgive us all, and help us all, and send us all
the Geulah Sheleimah, As Soon As Possible (ASAP).

I am trying to stop a machlokes that has continued much too long,
and has caused many sins, but I cannot do it alone.

We need the co-operation of everyone who comments
on this web site. I thank you all, in advance, for your co-operation.

@square_root
it seems your request is that the Jews here should not be moche the idolators who pollute this website.

for jews, there is no machlokes about notzrus, sha”tz, or zionism. we will continue to daven three times a day for the downfall of the zionist state and their army.

Dear Some Jew I Know (and UJM)

I am *** TRYING *** to stop a machlokes that has
already caused many violations of Torah Law,
including: Lashon HaRa, Motzi Shem Ra, sheker,
onaas devarim, laitzanus, insults, sinas chinam,
public humiliation, and machlokes itself is a severe sin.

Even HaKatan agreed with my effort,
and for this I thank him many times.

Over the past 4 to 5 years, every possible argument
and counter-argument about Zionism and the
State of Israel has been explored many, many times,
and there is nothing to be gained by discussing it more.

Most people do not know this about me,
but I am a kohen meyuchas.
In my family, we do *** NOT *** give back the Pidyon HaBen coins,
because we hold that there is no safek in our yichus,
which we trace back to Tanach times.

My great ancestor Aharon was famous for being
“Ohev Shalon VeRodaif Shalom”.

Obviously, I can never be even 1% as great as him.

But in a very, very small way, maybe I can try to be
just a little bit like him, by trying to end this machlokes.

My beliefs are as sincere as yours, but I also understand
that maintaining Shalom is often more important
than being right, or trying to be right.

Last but not least, I guarantee that maintaining Shalom
will bring great brachos for all of us.

I will certainly be rewarded for my sincere efforts
to end machlokes and maintain Shalom.

I plead with you to join me, so you can also be rewarded.

Sincerely,
SQUARE_ROOT