November 16, 2011 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #600582
I can control myself, and I have controlled myself until now.
The reason I started to eat Chalav Yisroel about 30 years ago, is that I live in an area where its so easily available, so why not? If I want to eat OU-D once a month, is it a terrible thing (not bringing it into my house)? Its driving me nuts, for instance wanting to try OU-D like Godiva, or when Im in midtown Manhattan, being able to buy a dairy chocolate bar, and Chalav Yisroel cant be found. Im not going to always have a chocolate bar with me, in preparation for cravings.
NO! It WONT lead to other Aveiros FOR SURE!!! Im squeaky clean, B”H!
Do I have to feel guilty if I do?November 16, 2011 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #8281052scentsParticipant
Yes you should, since it IS a lack of self control.
Besides, you might have to be Mater Neder.November 16, 2011 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #828106
I never made a Neder. I just always ate only CY because they sell it all over my neighborhood.November 16, 2011 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #828107GumBallMember
Omg I know exactly how you feel I also stopped when I turned 12 And sometimes I NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED 2 eat something OUD omg such a taivah!! ay ay ay!!!November 16, 2011 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #828108pushtayidParticipant
That still may be a neder. Doing something for a period of time becomes a neder.November 16, 2011 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #828109
Gumball, Omg I know exactly how you feel I also
Yeah, thanks, but I think you’re a little kid by comparison to me. Im a grown adult and I want to know what adults feel I should do about my craving.
Its not an aveiroh, its extra supervision that if I’d live OOT and didnt have frum supermarkets on every block, I’d probably not even think about keeping.November 16, 2011 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #828110yitayningwutParticipant
Go for it!November 16, 2011 11:11 pm at 11:11 pm #828111smartcookieMember
True, I always knew that if you do something with Chazakah(3 consecutive times), then it’s like a neder and you may not stop or change it back.November 16, 2011 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #828112✡onegoal™Participant
“I never made a Neder. I just always ate only CY because they sell it all over my neighborhood.”
Ofcourse- In hataras nedarim it says the following:
“…???? ?????? ????? ???? ????????????? ?????? ????????? ????? ?????????? ???????? ?????? ?????…”
“…or any good thing that I have performed three times but without specifying that the practice does not the force of a vow…”
Apparently just “doing things” holds water.November 16, 2011 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #828113
smartcookie I always knew that if you do something with Chazakah(3 consecutive times), then it’s like a neder and you may not stop or change it back.
Hey, this isnt exactly Shmiras Shabbos or wearing pants.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Im d—-d if I do and da—-d if I dont. If I do, Ill possibly feel guilty (inborn Jewish guilt). If I dont, Ill feel a craving. Im thinking that I might try it and if I see that its not that much better than whats available in CY, then that will be the end of that. Btw, if it matters, my parents and in laws ate OU-D. Among relatives now, some eat OU-D all the time, some never do.November 17, 2011 12:48 am at 12:48 am #828114ImaofthreeParticipant
do your kids keep cholov yisroel? would you mind if they would eat cholov stam once in a while? if the answer is yes, then you shouldn’t eat the cholov stam. just my two cents.November 17, 2011 1:30 am at 1:30 am #828115apushatayidParticipant
Get chocolate with an OU-D from eretz yisrael. Good chance it is is chalav yisrael too.November 17, 2011 1:38 am at 1:38 am #828116lovinghalachaMember
I would view this as a challange, no – you are right, it will not lead to any aveiros that I can think of. But as someone previously mentioned, it IS a control thing. I would suggest to view it as a nisayon, see how long you can hold out, try and overcome the teiva before just giving in. Play a game in your mind, challanging the yetzer back- showing him who is in control. Not that this is something major, but to show the yetzer hara that if something more major should come up you are up for the challange, you have practiced!! If you are still having debates perhaps ask your Rav if it would be considered breaking a Neder. Dont forget – one slip doesnt mean forget the entire thing! Just bounce right back into it. Am yisroel relates to people like you who face these challanges daily, in this manner and in many others. Am yisroel thrives on a challenge – go for it, put the yetzer to shame! Hatzlacha!November 17, 2011 1:44 am at 1:44 am #828117mazal77Participant
I understand you completely. I miss my OU D stuff, but I tell myself, that thank goodness, I keep CY, otherwise, I’d gain a ton of weight, with all the infinite possiblities to tempt me. Stick to your guns and be strong!!! It’s hard, I know, I know…sigh.. The harder the test, the greater the reward.November 17, 2011 4:23 am at 4:23 am #828118WolfishMusingsParticipant
Doing something for a period of time becomes a neder.
Only if it was done because the OP was accepting a religious stringency. If she(?) was doing so out of simple consumer choice/convenience (as indicated by her next post), I would think it’s not an issue.
Or do I need to be Matir Neder to buy Pepsi because I bought Coke over the past year?
The WolfNovember 17, 2011 5:30 am at 5:30 am #828119passfanMember
If it weren’t done out of stringency but merely out of convenience, why would she have paid a higher price for the CY? And why would she have avoided it in the city when she had no alternatives (as she indicated she did)?November 17, 2011 6:01 am at 6:01 am #828120
It was a just in case thing. I don’t think one has to be Mattir Neder here, especially because she points out that had it not been readily available then she never would have thought of keeping CY Lechumra. Thus, when she is somewhere where it is not readily available her “just in case” stringency probably wouldn’t apply.
Even if you would have to be Mattir Neder, you have to look at this two ways. Yes, it shows a submission to a physical desire. But we are human beings with physical desires and Muttar ways to fulfill those desires. If having this physical desire is actually harming your daily function and your Avodas Hashem, then it would be quite improper for you to avoid doing something Muttar.November 17, 2011 6:08 am at 6:08 am #828121essy8Member
though it wasn’t addressed to me (and i’m a married-with-kids-adult) the reply to Gumball stung when i read it! this topic has been discussed before and regardless whether anyone thinks it appropriate or whatever, children/teens are allowed by coffeeroom rules to post.
apologies in advance if i read into it to much and you didn’t intend to be harsh.November 17, 2011 6:10 am at 6:10 am #828122old manParticipant
It is ok to eat it whenever you are in the mood for it, you needn’t feel guilty in any way.
If this is your biggest spiritual concern, you are in very small company. Good for you.November 17, 2011 6:11 am at 6:11 am #828123essy8Member
additionally, in a matter of one deciding to become machmir on not eating chalav stam, why does age matter? gumball clearly has a choice just as the OP and clearly craves it just like to OP and is deciding not to eat it. why is that in anyway different than an adult who didn’t grow up with this chumrah/halacha?November 17, 2011 7:10 am at 7:10 am #828124
Ofcourse, this is most definitely an issue of nedarim (as the situation was described). Don’t do anything without consulting your rov.November 17, 2011 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #828125BTGuyParticipant
This is very confusing to me. I have been told cholov stam is not cholov treif. And I have read frum articles stating it is possible the origins of cholov yisrael were controversial, if not motivated for a share in the marketplace. I find it curious that someone may be halachically bound to CY once they prefer to buy CY either for convenience of they feel it is on a higher level.
Based on what I am reading here, can’t one argue that if one buys any food of a highly credible hechsher three times that they can not halachically go back to a hechsher less reputable?
And let me ask this: Should I continue mixing CS with CY because once I go all CY, I cannot go back without problems??
Also, let me throw this out there: I was told the longer ones tzit tzis are, the better. So if someone wants to go to a shorter length, closer to a 16, so it is not so bulky under certain shirts, is that the same kind of problem?November 17, 2011 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #828126yungerman1Participant
Wolf- The loshon we say is ?????? ????? ???? ????????????? ?????? ????????? , any GOOD minhag that we have done. If you consider buying Coke a good minhag then go be matir neder!!
passfan- The minhag was started because of strigency,not convenience. “I live in an area where its so easily available, so why not?” Since it wasnt inconvenient to eat c”y, she was stringent and started a god minhag of keeping c”y. Now that its inconvenient she needs to be matir neder.
Sam2- When one is matir neder, generally one needs a pesach- an excuse as to why they wouldnt have made the neder. We dont say that the neder doesnt apply because this is what he had in mind when the neder was made. (Dvarim Shebilev)November 17, 2011 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #828127
Yungerman: If Devarim Shebilev are obvious then they still count. I can’t say anything for sure because I honestly don’t know the demographics of people keeping CY Lechumra and why and such. Also, are you sure Devarim Shebilev applies to something that you were Noheg 3 times?
And can we please not be Medayik Halachos from the Lashon of a “Hataras Nedarim” that has no Halachic validity whatsoever?November 17, 2011 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #828128Lomed Mkol AdamMember
Can someone explain to me how refraining from doing something on account of stringency in halacha can be considered a neder?
In the nussach of hataras nedarim it says “shenahagti sholosh pi’amim” which implies that only positive actions which demonstrate a behavior, like wearing tefillin on chol hamoed, is considered a neder. However, the mere act of refraining from doing something even if one’s intentions is because of stringency in halacha is not a “hanhaga” and should only be considered “divorom sh’belev” and not at all binding.
Would someone consider refraining from visiting YW coffee room three times (when you felt an urge) a neder, and it’s prohibited to revisit without hataras nedarim (like has happened to myself right now!)?!November 17, 2011 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #828129apushatayidParticipant
I can provide a pesach. it doesnt taste nearly as good as say nestle, hersheys, godiva, turkey hill….. had you known how bad it tastes, you would never have accepted such a stringency.November 17, 2011 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #828130
Stop. Please stop. If you want to cite actual Gemaros/Halachos/sources then fine. That’s great. That’s what we should be doing. Can we please stop trying to learn out a Halacha from the Lashon of something which has no Halachic status?November 17, 2011 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #828131yitayningwutParticipant
I agree with essy8 that the comment to GumBall was not nice.
GumBall, you might be a kid, but things can be just as hard for you as for grown-ups. Don’t listen to these grumps.
Lomed Mkol Adam –
Haven’t seen you around in a while. Welcome back!November 17, 2011 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #828132
And can we please not be Medayik Halachos from the Lashon of a “Hataras Nedarim” that has no Halachic validity whatsoever?
You don’t believe in hatoras nedarim? I’m failing to understand why you think there’s no validity to the standard nusach. Maybe you’re confusing it with Kol Nidrei (which, although one can’t say that it no validity, is indeed controversial).
One can avoid the issue of nedarim when accepting a chumrah by explicitly stipulating that it’s bli neder (also found in the standard nusach).November 17, 2011 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #828133
DaasYochid: The Hataras Nedarim we do on Erev Rosh Hashana does nothing. It is not Mattir any Neder. We even admit to that in the Nusach itself. It’s a nice, fake Hataras Nedarim to do to show that we are going to start the year off with no pre-existing things holding us back.
The only part of that Hataras Nedarim that might have any Halachic validity is the very last paragraph.November 17, 2011 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #828134
GumBall, you might be a kid, but things can be just as hard for you as for grown-ups. Don’t listen to these grumps.
I remember my teens and having a long list of Teivos, so each of the Teivos were Batel bShishim. It was somehow easier. Now with this Teivo thats been gnawing at me for years, its a bigger deal because eating OU-D is not even an Aveiroh in most people’s eyes, outside of the “Arai Hakodesh” where CY can be easily found.November 17, 2011 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #828135JotharMember
When does the frumteens essay get posted here?November 17, 2011 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #828137cherrybimParticipant
I only eat Cholav Yisroel and I eat OU-D; not a s’tirah.November 17, 2011 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #828138
Sam2, We even admit to that in the Nusach itself.
??? ???? ???”? ??? ?”?: …???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????. ??? ??? ??????? ?”? ???? ???? ?????November 17, 2011 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #828139Lomed Mkol AdamMember
Sam2: Hataras nedarim of erev rosh hashana definitely has halachic value for all nedarim which one has no recollection of; however, nedarim which one does remember must be specified in the nussach in order to become nullified. A hanhaga tova which was repeated three times does need to be nullified midrabanan; however, I can’t understand how refraining from doing something (as opposed to a positive action) can constitute a neder.
Yitayningwut: Great to hear from you as well. I remember having stimulating debates with you in the past. Shame I can’t get to meet/know you IRL. I hope I’ll disappear from here quickly, as this place is addictive and minimizes my capacity for fulfilling my responsibilities IRL.November 17, 2011 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #828140
You have to be Mefaret the Neder to be Mattir it. You can’t do that if you don’t remember it. How can this accomplish a function of being Mattir Nedarim that we don’t know about? Also, when was the last time someone on your Beis Din for Hataras Nedarim really knew Hilchos Hataras Nedarim? We even let family members (father and son; two brothers) be on a Beis Din together for this. It’s not a real Hataras Nedarim.November 18, 2011 5:35 am at 5:35 am #828141
Sam2, Your first point has some validity, (I’ll get to that soon), but the last two are based on ignorance of basic Shulchan Aruch.
The halachos of hataras nedarim are in Y.D. 228. In siman 1, he says that if there are three people, they need not be “mumchim”, they can be “hedyotos”. Definition (Taz and Shach): needs to be capable of understanding, but doesn’t need to already know.
In siman 3, he allows relatives.
In siman 14, he does say that the neder needs to be specified. The reasons, however (see Taz) are based on the possibility that had he specified, the dayanim may not have been matir. We specify, though, that such nedarim are not included.
There are also a number of shittos which argue on the S.A. who says that hatarah without being m’faret doesn’t work b’dieved; they hold it does.
Our hataras nedarim is valid.November 18, 2011 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #828142
Interesting. I was not aware of 228:3. Hedyotos still means that they have to know something about being Mattir Neder, I would think. I know you don’t need Mumchim, but I don’t think that random people count as even Hedyotos (I haven’t learned this at all though so I could easily be wrong; if you provide a source I will concede this). The SH”A meantions Hataras Nedarim in Orach Chayim, right? So according to him, what does it do? It was never meant to be an actual Hatarah. I would think that is decently clear. The main part of it is to be Moser Moda’ah that all Nedarim we take for the next year won’t be Chal.November 18, 2011 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #828143
Based on the above opinions, I have to go to a Rav to ask if I can have an occassional Hershey bar, when in Manhattan (because of years of abstaining from OU-D)? I just cant see myself doing that. It doesnt seem important enough to bother a Rav with, and yet it bothers me.
By the way, do any midtown stores (between the 30’s and 50’s, aside from restaurants) carry Chalav Yisroel items?November 18, 2011 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #828144
It was never meant to be an actual Hatarah. I would think that is decently clear.
It’s actually quite clear that it is a real hatarah.November 18, 2011 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #828145passfanMember
Ofcourse: If you must be hatoras nedorim on it, and it isn’t an issue you feel “important enough” to do so, then your stringency of following Cholov Yisroel remains on you.November 20, 2011 2:33 am at 2:33 am #828146mik5Participant
if you aren’t aware that it’s a vow (e.g., if you don’t know the concept of vows at all), or you keep in mind that it shouldn’t be a vow, is it still a vow?November 20, 2011 6:01 am at 6:01 am #828147
If you have in mind for it not to be a vow but don’t do anything to show that fact then it’s still a Neder.November 20, 2011 10:51 am at 10:51 am #828148moi aussiMember
I thought that nowadays one can get any ou-d product in a chalav Yisrael version. Which product are you craving? I’m sure you could find the equivalent (almost) in perfectly kosher.
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