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A couple of days ago, the RY of Ner Yisroel clearly described Ner Yisroel graduate MK Rabbi Dov Lipman as a shono uPiresh, an apostate, essentially. Other terms were used to describe him as well, and his party’s effort to have math and english included in curricula was described as an effort to close down those schools.
In any case, I will not presume to criticize the RY’s perspective on R’ Lipman.
That being said, I would be grateful if someone here could give me an explanation of the following. Ner Yisroel’s high school offers excellent math and English courses, among many other subjects, taught superlatively and within the RY’s hashkafic guidelines. It also has ongoing and highly successful arrangements with local universities, such as the prestigious Johns Hopkins, involving joint or consecutive degree granting programs, from which some of Ner Yisroel’s most successful alumni, be they rabbis, lawyers, doctors, and other professionals, have graduated.
So my question is this. Why are Ner Yisroel yeshiva bochrim in Baltimore encouraged to study math and English (whether because the state demands it, or the professional future the yeshiva encourages or at the very least permits it, or the parents demand it) while for yeshiva bochrim elsewhere it is yehareg veal yaavor?
If the rationale -either way – is halachic, it should (a) apply to everyone, on either side of the Atlantic. If the rationale is (b) political, then those rationalizing it must be honest about its political, but not halachic nature. As neither (a) nor (b) is being applied, what is the explanation for this contradictory approach?
Now you ask? The gedolim in E.Y. have always been against secular studies, and the gedolim in chu”l tolerant (at least) of it, and it was never a machlokes.
One glaring difference is that Lipman wants it forced on the Chareidim, while Ner Yisroel has no problem with those, such as Lakewood talmidim, who don’t go to college.
But even besides that, there’s a long history of formal secular education being shunned in E.Y., especially in Yerushalayim, going back to the days of R’ Yosef Chaim Zonnenfeld. We really need to do research on those early days to understand the mindset. It really has to do with political realities affecting halachah, which is a possibility the OP ignores.
DY, this isn’t R Zonnenfeld speaking, this is the RY of an institution that allows and encourages it.
But isn’t suggesting it for E.Y.
There’s a long history of the gedolim in E.Y. fighting against secular studies, because the imposition of it was designed to weaken Torah. In such a situation (political reality) it becomes the halachah to fight it.
As an example of politics affecting halachah, see R’ Herscel Schachter’s reasoning to asser ordaining rabbettes. As I posted elsewhere, there is precedent, including but not limited the Chasam Sofer.
Without literally calling this a sha’as hashmad (I’ll leave that for poskim to decide), we can certainly use the concept to demonstrate that political context most definitely informs halachah (or at least its application).
There was never a p’sak that it’s categorically forbidden for bochurim to learn secular studies; the issur is it’s imposition under certain circumstances. Applying halachah to practical circumstances is part of the eternal Torah.
Gelt, Gelt and Gelt. That is all it is about, and I am sticking to my guns on this. No one is forcing anyone to learn any secular studies. It is a precondition for government funding, nothing more.
What the Charaidim really need is to find an alternative source of income from their current life on the dole. Might I suggest creation of a Golem (or five).
Golems are a proven technology (as the Maharal has already created one) and can be used in a golem-based currency (See: Golems of Um). Golems do not need to sleep and do not get tired. They can be hired out to earn money so that the Charaidim can stay in learning. They are a perfect solution to an otherwise unsolvable problem.
Rav Aharon Feldman is not in any way shape or form in favor of college.
I just want one person to prove to me how knowing Math and being literate in English (The Lingua-Franca of the world, the lanugage of commerce ) damages the Torah
GAW – If you do switch to a Golem-based workforce there may be the complications of chain-smoking Golem-rights activists and whatnot to deal with.
I just want one person to prove to me how knowing Math and being literate in English (The Lingua-Franca of the world, the lanugage of commerce ) damages the Torah.
A challenge!
The answer is very Pashut, IMHO. The Gedolim are very much aware that the average Charaidi is unequipped for contact with the outside world (as they follow the Rav Dessler Mehalech in Chinuch, as I have posted elsewhere). As such, preventing any such contact is a priority. Not learning math or english prevents the aforementioned Charaidi from going out in the world and getting a job, and as the main (not side) point, prevents him from having contact with the outside world.
Math and English is not the point at all.
GAW – If you do switch to a Golem-based workforce there may be the complications of chain-smoking Golem-rights activists and whatnot to deal with.
Stiletto heels vs. Charaidim. I’d like to see someone try to stop her from sitting in the front of the bus!
GAW- And no matter how many times you thank her for not smoking…
I just want one person to prove to me how knowing Math and being literate in English (The Lingua-Franca of the world, the lanugage of commerce ) damages the Torah
I think your question is the difference between tahor and kadosh. Math in a vacuum is probably not the issue. Similarly, Math (or biology, astronomy, musical theory, etc.) that is specifically needed for the individual to understand parts of Torah learning might even be a hechser mitzvah for him.
But what about someone whose chelek in Torah is not through understanding the calculations of kiddush levanah? Here is a Yeshivah boy who would otherwise be having class in Talmud but he is now forced to learn geometry. Why is it not bittul Torah for him to learn this subject?
On another level. Why don’t you think that a person whose mind is 95% pure Torah is better than someone whose mind is only 85% Torah and 10% Math. Would you also prefer a diamond that is only 85% pure?
The question is: My purpose is to learn Torah- what will help me do that? Basic addition (for me personally), yes. American History, no. Chemistry, no. Zoology, biology, maybe. English Grammar, no.
I think that is why there are some gedolim of previous generation who did learn specific subjects- to enhance the areas of Torah study they were studying. But not lishem mitzvos yidiyas hamadah.
Derech: Learning Torah is not our only purpose in life. We also need to do mitzvos, including acts of kindness. We are very limited in the acts of kindness we can do for others if we have no “secular” skills or knowledge.
Being a doctor, a plumber, an engineer, whatever, whether it’s part time or full time, enables you to help other people much more effectively, both through giving tzedakah and through giving practical assistance to others (something the Shulchan Aruch says we should always be doing).
I would rather have someone whose mind is 50% Torah and 50% Engineering, if that person’s engineering skills save one person’s life, or save one person from great suffering.
Doesn’t it have some connection to Kedushas E.Y.? Why can’t there be different standards for different places? Can somebody in the know please clarify.
Secular education in E.Y. was banned way back when they came in form of “gymnasiums” IIRC. And major funding was forfeited, rightfully so, as the goal then was assimilation. We don’t truly know what their end-game is now, so things aren’t as different as they seem.
The question is: My purpose is to learn Torah- what will help me do that? Basic addition (for me personally), yes. American History, no. Chemistry, no. Zoology, biology, maybe. English Grammar, no
You need to Know Zoology to know about Kosher Animals especially Fish (Zoology and Biology are related)
A few years ago some Bochrim could not burn Chometz on Eruv Peseach because it was too windy and tried to use Paint Thinner (and disatrous results), that is Chemistry
Many Jews (Probably a Majority) Speak English and if you want to properly relate torah to them Proper English and English grammar is expected. Many Seforim are written in english and many people expect good quality english writing from these books
Mammele, something is either muttar or ossur. If something is muttar and you just machmir, you can’t make a tumul about it. At least, do not expect others to pay for your chumros.The Halochah about the secular education does change from here to E.Yisroel.
DY, you realize that you did really answer the Yichusdic’s very straight-forward question?
Derech HaMelech, people very often need secular education to earn(not to shnorr) a parnossah.
yytz: Through learning Torah we can fulfill many other mitzvos in the way of “unishalma parim sfaseinu”. Also, see shaar daled in Nefesh HaChaim. An engineer may save someone’s life after he’s already in danger. Learning Torah can prevent the danger altogether. Also, the sefer Binyan Olam explains that although a person is obligated to stop learning Torah to perform a mitvah sh’i efshi al yedei acheirim (such as saving someone’s life), it would be comparable to buying a lotto to a $50 million dollar lotto but only winning $45 million (my words). It’s still a great mitzvah but its not limud HaTorah.
zahavasdad: It looks like I wasn’t clear. Yes you may need to know some zoology/biology for something like chulin. But my point was that until you are going to learn chulin, you don’t need to know it.
I learned chemistry in high school, I don’t know what the chemical composition of paint thinner is, but I would still be wary of using it to burn something. Those boys acted stupidly, and knowing the chemical formula to glucose would not have changed that.
Unless you are going to write English books on Torah or work in Kiruv, you don’t need to be able to relate Torah to the people who need that.
Again, my point is that the value of these subjects are relative to the person’s actual need of them. When the need arises, the value is high. Before then, they have no value. Like buying a lulav before Pesach.
mdd: I agree. Some parts of secular education is needed to make a parnassah. But why teach trigonometry to someone who will become a car salesman? Or geometry to someone who will sell shoes? How will either of them gain through learning biology?
If we were talking about a school that taught specifically the subjects needed to engage in a given field of work, I would think that is a great idea. But I think to teach everything in case some of it is needed is bittul Torah in Yeshivos where they would otherwise be learning gemarah.
Ill make it simple.
You go to the doctor and he tells you to fill out insurance forms which are in English, Those forms include your medical history
Those forms are in English
The doctor takes your blood test and tells you , that you have High Cholestoral and gives you liptor. You cannot read the directios on the bottle that says you cannot take grapefruit with a Statin which is chemisry . So you need to know english and chemistry or it could kill you.
DM, I hear what you are saying. I guess since the frei are the ones who pay the bills sometimes you need to compromise without being over issurim.
Yichusdic, I totaly disagree it is about power. In fact, I moche on the bizayon of Talmidei Chachomim. They are just big machmirim over there.
DH: The simple answer is that the high schooler doesn’t know what he’s going to do for a Parnassah with his life and therefore we should teach the minimum (math and English, and maybe biology too) that will give him a wide enough array of options for when he needs to actually earn that Parnassah.
They are just big machmirim over there.
Its easy to be Machmir mit Yennem’s Gelt.
You need the basics of things like math to go on to the advanced Math.
So of like you need to have the foundations of certain Gemorahs to learn the more advanced ones.
You dont learn Baba Basra without learning Elu Mitzeout
You dont learn the Halachot of Animals without knowing the biology behind them
ZD, I’m not against secular education, but you certainly don’t have to know most of the biology curriculum to understand Chullin. After all, nothing invisible to the naked eye was known until the invention of the microscope. An entire body of halacha existed without knowledge of DNA, cells, etc. If you limit your knowledge to comparative zoology and anatomy, you’d be fine. This is barely covered in the New York State high school standards.
Zehava’s Dad – they’re not only being machmir with yenem’s gelt. By being Machmir on one thing, they’re being meikil on another – the Mitzvas Ha’av al HaBen to teach a son an Umnus Kala u’Nikiya!
an Israeli Yid
Yuchusdic, come on, it is obvioulsy a chesoron to desire power for it’s own sake. Btw, i have not admitted anything here.
zd: I think you are fishing for examples that are really none-issues. Your examples are issues that are part of day to day living and people find ways around them, such as bringing a family or friend to help translate, having community doctors who are cognizant of the communal needs etc.
I don’t understand your second comment. I am saying that advanced math is unnecessary in most cases and for those that need it, they can learn it.
Sam2: If the high schooler can’t make up his mind about what profession he will have, then why not teach it to him once he is mature enough to make that decision? Do you think that having learned the “basics” in high school, he will have enough time to pursue an advanced education before getting married? And if he does have enough time after high school(ie. he gets married a few years later), then he is already serious- so why not give him the necessary courses at that time?
yichusdik: I don’t really understand politics so I have difficulty understanding some of the things that you are saying. But I do have a few comments.
On the one hand, I agree that it is important for the Rabbonim to have complete authority over chareidi yeshivas. That itself may be one of the bigger differences between chareidi society to MO: the chareidi rabbonim are not just rabbinical authorities but rabbinical leaders. In America, for whatever reasons the rabbonim chose to relinquish some of that authority and it seems to me that in return they are generally less respected/central then their E”Y counterparts. Or maybe it was the other way around.
On the other hand, if you don’t think that the larger none-religious Isareli public are not antagonistic towards chareidim, you have either not lived in E”Y or you are not aware of what the media does there. There is true hatred there both in the media (just look at the stories here on YWN, where it is always pointed out) and in the government (which was founded on the principles of cutting Yemenite boys peyos off) and that is not something new.
Lastly, I understand that you disagree with the gedolim who make these decisions. That is your prerogative. But to me it seems that they are trying to maintain a limud-Torah centric society as best as they can. If it means taking money from the government, fine. If the government refuses, they’ll lobby or whatever they need to do. If that doesn’t work, then they’ll make the changes they deem necessary at that time with the goal of keeping the community as close to the ideal as possible. Why does it have to be any more than that?
Derech HaMelech: I agree with you 100%. Someone who has a parnassah has no need to learn any of these things.
On the other hand, someone who does not prepare and has no parnassah has no right to ask (they are not asking, they are demanding) for a handout, especially if they were offered the opportunity to prepare.
As Chazal said: Ezehu Chacham Haroeh Es Hanolad.
On the one hand, I agree that it is important for the Rabbonim to have complete authority over chareidi yeshivas.
Or their brother?
If you want to have a good job and be financially secure these days, you need some education. Many jobs such as marketing, journalism, psychology, Kiruv, science, medicine, engineering, law, etc require either high quality English language skills, proficiency in math, or knowledge of science. Teaching also requires education, for obvious reasons.
Unless you want to work at low-paying, menial jobs, you need a basic grounding in English and math. That’s the reality.
If you want to have a good job and be financially secure these days, you need some education. Almost all good job fields such as marketing, journalism, psychology, Kiruv, science, medicine, engineering, law, etc require either high quality English language skills, proficiency in math, or knowledge of science. Teaching also requires education, for obvious reasons.
Unless you want to work at low-paying, menial jobs, you need a basic grounding in English and math. That’s the reality.
It doesn’t sound like you agree with anything I said. Of course if the person already has a parnassah they don’t need to learn anything new. The question was before the parnassah.
So you are saying that charedi paupers (and their families) should be penalized because their gedolim decided that they should not receive a secular education. Or for not finding a parnassah even without the education. Or for not leaving their community once he had the means. Is that correct?
Or maybe you really mean that you are upset at charedi gedolim for putting their public into a position where some need tzedakah. Because you calculated that it is better for 100% of the people to learn 30% less Torah now so that 5% of the people won’t have to shnor later on. And therefor the gedolim are wrong for not teaching secular subjects.
Or their brother?
Huh?
Or their brother?
Huh?
HaRav HaGaon Rosh HaYeshiva Rav Aaron Kotler, the real man in charge (Boruch Hashem). As Rav Shach (IIRC) paskened, the one who brings in the funding is the real Rosh Yeshiva.
So you are saying that charedi paupers (and their families) should be penalized because their gedolim decided that they should not receive a secular education.
No, I’m saying that Israeli taxpayers (and their families) should NOT be penalized because the gedolim decided that their followers should not receive a secular education.
I would be very happy if the money was created Yesh M’Ayin and given to the Charaidim (including myself), so we could sit and learn all day. Blame Adam HaRishon for that one.
As Rav Shach (IIRC) paskened, the one who brings in the funding is the real Rosh Yeshiva.
So you’re saying this is all a big mistake. really Rav Ahron Leib Steinman wants to introduce secular subjects into charedi mosdos, but the people who collect the money are preventing him from doing so?
No, I’m saying that Israeli taxpayers (and their families) should NOT be penalized because the gedolim decided that their followers should not receive a secular education.
So you are saying the government is acting unconstitutionally? I don’t know a lot about law, but I don’t think tax money is held in escrow by the government for the Israeli people. I think the money belongs to the government and they have the right to choose where they put it. Do you think that someone who thinks the Israeli economy needs more governmental funding and he is also being penalized when the government spends it on defense?
If one listens to their gedolim then they should be rewarded from Hashem. Its not the job of fellow man to reward someone for following someone elses Gedolim unless they want to
So you’re saying this is all a big mistake. really Rav Ahron Leib Steinman wants to introduce secular subjects into charedi mosdos, but the people who collect the money are preventing him from doing so?
It has nothing to do with our main point.
So you are saying the government is acting unconstitutionally? I don’t know a lot about law, but I don’t think tax money is held in escrow by the government for the Israeli people. I think the money belongs to the government and they have the right to choose where they put it. Do you think that someone who thinks the Israeli economy needs more governmental funding and he is also being penalized when the government spends it on defense?
(As I have posted before,) I agree with you once again. Until now, everyone who took money was justified, since the government offered it. If the government no longer offers it, then you are no longer justified in taking it. The taxpayers/voters have decided to no longer offer money, so the government (following the wishes of “the people”), is no longer offering it.
There are no inherent “right” to get money from the government, it is only what the government decides to offer. The government has decided to only help those who attempt to help themselves (in the area of Parnassah. Even that is not true, they are just offering less help than before).
I’ll have to retract what I said before. Anyone has the right to ask, there is free speech. The government also has the right to say no. You can complain about it, but not break the law because of it.
I’m glad we agree.
DM, the government does the bidding of the MKs who support it. The frei were forced to act tough. If they don’t, the Israeli Chareidim would never budge. Now, if it is going to be tough for some Chareidim, it is themselves or other Chareidim who brought it about.
Derech: Torah study in general protects the Jewish people, but how do you know whether your individual Torah study has saved lives? As far as I know, there’s no pasuk that says, “Don’t worry about saving lives, just study Torah and that will save more lives than you ever could by trying to save lives.” In contrast, we are told “not to rely on a miracle,” that saving a life is like saving a world, and that every person should believe that the world was created for his sake.
More generally, the poor will never cease from the land (Devarim 15:11), and acts of kindness are one of the pillars of the world. So no matter how much we study Torah, there will always be poor people in need of tzedakah, and we still need to do acts of kindness because after all it’s a pillar upon which the world stands. It’s hard to give much tzedakah or help other people very much if you’ve never studied non-Torah subjects and gained practical skills and knowledge.
“And if he does have enough time after high school(ie. he gets married a few years later), then he is already serious- so why not give him the necessary courses at that time?”
Have you tried to learn a new language since you were a kid? You presumably learned English from birth (correct me if I’m wrong) and you probably know at least a semi-decent Hebrew, maybe Yiddish, some operational Aramaic from Gemara, maybe some other languages.
The fact is that if I plopped you into a new country and told you to learn the language, it would be much more difficult than it was to learn any of your other languages- not impossible, but definitely harder. Our brains don’t adapt to new languages well after we’ve gotten older- even only past adolescence, which is why I’ll never understand why high schools start us on Spanish in ninth grade. They could do it, but our brains are much more elastic at younger ages, which makes it easier to learn.
Did you know that they’ve tried your idea already? The problem is that many students have quit from the sheer difficulty and magnitude of learning an entire new language, new math skills, new scientific skills at such a late date. Remember, they don’t have that much time to waste learning this stuff- bittul Torah. So they need to grasp all this and immediately, not in stages like how you and I learned it, start on professional training. I know I’d probably crack.
g_a_w: Anyone has the right to ask, there is free speech. The government also has the right to say no. You can complain about it, but not break the law because of it.
Ok. So then I don’t understand where the point you disagree with me is. Are you saying that since these laws came out requiring secular subjects in the curriculum for funding, Israeli mosdos started breaking the law?
mdd: My personal feelings about that is that we do what we need to do and sometimes Hashem tests us to see how adamant we are about doing the right thing.
Yytz: It’s an explicit Gemara in Megillah, Daf 5 or so. Gadol Talmud Torah Yoser MiHatzalas Nefashos. (I happen to think that P’shat in that Gemara is a little different than the basic Pashtus, but it’s clear that Pashut P’shat is exactly what it sounds like.)
Sam2: What is basic pashtus? Is that superfluous?
Sam2: Yes, but my point was, it doesn’t say one individual’s Torah study necessarily saves lives. Perhaps each person’s Torah study saves 1/10th of a life? We just don’t know. Or like you’re suggesting, there might be less literal ways of interpreting it.
DM, in my opinion, the Israeli Chareidim have a history of taking extreme and untenable positions. Besides, it looks bad — they want the government funding, but they don’t want to follow the rules. It is high time to stop.
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