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Hey people. Long-time lurker who finally decided to join the Coffeeroom. Here is my question. I know that NCSY is a nice organization that has helped many people become frum, but don’t these NCSY shabbatons give people that aren’t frum yet- a false impression of what a typical Shabbos is? Why isn’t that considered disingenuous?
For example, when is the last time that any of you went to havdalla and had a kumzitz with a guitar? I understand that this is meant to inspire these people, but 99% of frum people don’t do it at a regular havdalla.
I can give many more examples, but I think my point has been made.
NCSY and kiruv, in general, differ from the norms of frum life in certain aesthetic ways.
As you noted, guitar havdalah is an example. Nothing I can think of that really prohibits that, but it’s not done, because I think we generally are reluctant to have musical instruments in a shul (even though Carlebach did it, and of course, we had in the Beis haMikdash).
Other things, like goyishe music and dances, are done to be hospitable to the non frum. This makes it unacceptable to people FFB.
I think gradually as they grow they get acclimated to the normal way of doing things. Like when a person graduates from the beginner’s minyan to the regular minyan, for instance.
I actually know a family that does havdala every week with instruments! Okay, I guess they are not typical. For starters, you have to have some talent in the family or it’s not doable.
To answer your question, you have a valid point to some extent, but I guess the point is that most people are not becoming Frum because they want to have Havdala with a guitar. If it’s that important to them, they can learn to play guitar and do this every week.
I assume the point is to get kids interested in Yiddishkeit enough that they will then spend Shabbosim at people’s houses. But I don’t know anything about NCSY, so this would be better answered by someone who does.
Can’t make a person SERIOUSLY FRUM overnight. You start off lightly and making Judaism sweet. Well that’s how havdala becomes sweet with a nice kumzitz.
When they become frum enough they will be finished with NCSY and not need to be told no guitar by havdala
Reuventree, shabbatons are just that, and participants may be without much knowledge of Yiddishkeit, but they are not naive. They don’t see the shabbaton havdallah kumzitz as the everyweek experience, but recognize that shabbat has a special quality that is heightened in a shabbaton environment In any case, No one at NCSY expects to accomplish kiruv only through a Shabbaton; it is a gateway to relationship building, Shabbat experiences in advisors and directors homes and shuls, more local group shabbat experiences, and Israel trips like their incredibly successful TJJ program.
reuventree555
Who cares if that’s what a “typical” Shabbos is? If they ending living a lifestyle in which they have a kumzitz with a guitar by havdallah, is there anything wrong with that?
You need to hook them with something, and a “typical” Shabbos just doesn’t do it for a lot a people, especially teenagers.
Btw, your statistic of 99% is probably not accurate. There are plenty of people in Israel who do stuff like that.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it.
or perhaps we should make more of an effort to continue hugging them…
“It’s amazing that you are keeping Shabbos! You are so great!”
This is the truth, so no one is misleading them with this expression.
“However, once they become frum, they won’t have everyone hugging them and clapping them on the back for keeping shabbos.”
Unless they are very naive, why would they expect that? They know it’s a kiruv organization, so it makes sense that the people involved would be more encouraging than people in the real world.
Still don’t see anything wrong with it.
You’re hitting on a big point.
There’s little support for people once they become frum. We’ll tell them to go to yeshiva, but that seems to be it. What is needed is a support system for BT’s and gerim.
and yet, dovrosenbaum, in too many parts of our community, how many would be ok with a shidduch between their child and the most amazing BT or geir?
Support them but don’t ch’v marry them seems to be a common attitude. I’ve heard it, seen it, encountered it among my ffb communities, friends and family both in the chareidi and MO world.
What’s the point of half baked “support” if one is going to keep them at a distance?
It’s not just NCSY- it’s a general problem in the kiruv/bt world. They get tons of support as they are becoming Frum and not enough later on. A huge percentage of kids-at-risk are the children of bt’s. A lot of baalei teshuva get divorced. Baalei teshuvah need a lot of support after they become Frum, as they navigate the shidduch process, and try to figure out to build Frum homes and raise ffb kids despite never having been brought up in a Frum home themselves and being somewhat clueless regarding the differences between ffb’s (their kids) and bt’s (themselves).
A big part of the problem (in terms of their chinuch apporach) lies in not knowing the difference between a chumra and halacha and a kula, being too strict about the wrong things or too lenient about others. The Frum world is EXTREMELY complicated and if you didn’t grow up in it, you need a lot of guidance regarding how to raise your kids.
There are a lot of things that FFB’s take for granted and don’t even think about that baalei teshuva do not realize or is not natural for them.
I do think that the oilam has become more aware of these issues in recent years. Some of the major baalei teshuva schools have started alumni programming and are making efforts to reach out to their alumni. But it is a big job and I am sure that there is more to be done.
In terms of the rest of us, it is important to be aware of these issues so that if you do know any baalei teshuva, no matter how long they have been Frum, it is kidai to make an extra effort to reach out to them and their children.
Welcome!!! But you never know, a lot of balei tshuva spice things up a bit. I’m sure they know it isn’t like this in every home..
When you are selling someone the Jewish religion, you aren’t selling them the lifestyle that is being practiced by people who say they are frum. You are selling them the ideal religion and you ought to show them what that is.
People can blast NCSY all they want, but I don’t see a Yeshiva Orthodox group reaching out to them and having a significant impact.
Ohr HaTorah, Aish, Lubavitch and others don’t count?
I see what you’re saying, reuventree. Late starters to Yiddishkeit get so much encouragement and support when they start out, and are applauded at every small step forward. Once they seem to know what they’re doing, there doesn’t seem to be much support. Correct me if I’m warping the situation, but it seems to me the same case as a child learning to walk. Every shaky step receives a standing ovation when we’re just starting out at age 1 or so, but once the kid starts walking regularly it doesn’t garner such admiration. Is this necessarily a bad thing? I think not. I don’t think it’s misleading to praise a child for progress and then neglect to do so once they’ve achieved independence. I think it would be silly to do so, and won’t accomplish anything. I’m 20 years old and I don’t need someone to celebrate my ability to walk. (That shouldn’t, of course, take away from my own appreciation of said ability.) Encouragement and support is one hundred percent essential and effective to a BT starting his path, and will provide a solid foundation for a person’s Judaism and relation to his brethren, and love of Hashem and His Torah. Once that foundation has been laid, however, they don’t need to be told that “It’s amazing that you are keeping Shabbos! You are so great!” every time they do so. It may even seem insulting.
Joseph – By Ohr HaTorah, I assume you mean Ohr Sameach?
There’s also OORAH, JEP, Neve, EYAHT, Jeff Seidel & the Jewish Student Information Center, Heritage House and probably a bunch of other things.
Anyhow, there’s no reason to compare. All those places do great stuff and NCSY does great stuff too. And whether or not one feels that one should “blast NCSY” really has nothing to do with whether or not there are other programs. If NCSY is problematic, it’s problematic, and if it’s not, it’s not regardless of what else there is.
But either way, no one should be blasting it, and certainly not here. And I don’t think anyone was. I think this thread was just about one particular possible concern that probably applies to the whole kiruv world in general and is probably inevitable to some extent.
For the OP’s issue to be a problem, you’re assuming that one cannot fool someone into stopping to do aveiros.
That’s true – you can’t. That would be the wrong approach. Toras Emes. You should not get people to keep the Torah through sheker. But I don’t think that’s what’s happenning here.
So fooling someone whose about to violate Shabbos into not doing so, you think is wrong?
Yes – that’s not the right way to get someone to keep Shabbos.
I know someone who grew up frum and goes to kiruv events to make friends and learn.
He told me that he is not eligible for the cool fellowships where people go on trips to other countries for a couple hundred dollars if they just learn for X hours for X weeks because he came from a frum household.
At the same time, he told me that he sometimes struggles with keeping Yiddishkeit 100%. Yet since he went to Jewish schools growing up, the donors who pay for the secular Jews to learn overlook him as part of the program.
So from what he told me, it sounds like at kiruv events, he is an outsider insider.
If someone will violate Shabbos unless you fool him into not violating Shabbos, then you should fool him into not sinning.
Someone may stop doing the aveirah for the short term, but it risks the person later being disillusioned, resentful, and going the other way.
There is a saying that the action will lead the heart to wanting it.
Does it always go that way in the long-run?
From various Gedolim stories I have heard over the years, it sounds like the Gedolim don’t approve of that type of approach.
Also, it doesn’t help in the long run. When they find out they have been fooled, they will be mad, and it will backfire. You have to be seicheldik about these things.
You’re dealing with people, not with machines. You can also take someone and tie him up so he won’t be able to be mechalel Shabbos, but that’s not our approach. The point is to get him to do it for the right reasons. We don’t force people to keep Mitzvos because that would be missing the point. The point isn’t to get the Mitzvos to be kept – the point is to get the PERSON to keep the Mitzvos because it is good for him and connects him to Hashem. If it’s done out of force, it is meaningless. Tricking people is similar.
Ideally we do force people to do mitzvos, if necessary. We just lack the power today to do so. Otherwise beis din could, and if necessary would, coerce people into doing their halachic obligations.
Maybe some mitzvot wouldn’t be pleasant if forced.
Imagine a hostile person doing bikur cholim. I wouldn’t want to send a bitter person to go cheer up someone’s Nanna in the hospital, G-d forbid.
I agree with the OP; it is misleading.
Also, on a side note, aren’t Ohr Someach and Aish HaTorah the same organization?
What about people doing mitzvot out of guilt and shame?
Is that a good thing?
Better than not doing the mitzvos at all.
As previously stated, halachicly beis din is supposed to physically coerce a person to do his obligations, or not do sins, if that’s the only method of persuasion that works.
Also, on a side note, aren’t Ohr Someach and Aish HaTorah the same organization?
No. Aish haTorah was originally a split-off of Ohr Sameach.
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