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Why, when so many gedolim discourage the Torah community from being affected by the curent storm in the Israeli goverment, and not join the IDF, are there so many small thinkers out there who argue with them (not that there opinion is anything) and suddenly become so smart and clever and serious about sharing the burden, and all that garbage. What I mean to ask is do these people think that someone that hasnt taken his mind off Torah for 70/ 80 yrs. doesent “really get it”. This isnt about playing ball, it’s about the very life of your average Yeshiva guy in Israel. It’s not like they are coming from any Dass Torah at all (even if most yeshivishe wouldn’t go by them) is there like any logic at all?I really want to here from anyone who is going against most mainstream Gedolei Yisrael who were outspoken against the draft. I’m not interested in a debate weather the chareidim need to leave Yeshivos or not. I know the answere to that. 🙂
Simbin, you seem to have your mind made up. Why are you interested in a discussion at all, unless you just want to berate someone whose world view is different from yours?
“is there like any logic at all?”
yes. but it is not to be found here.
I just want to point out that you’re being a bit dishonest. In the Yeshivish/Chareidi world, those Gedolim who hold of the army are marginalized and therefore not “mainstream”. You’ve created a tautology. All mainstream Gedolim are anti-army because anyone pro-army is inherently not a mainstream Gadol. I’m not here to compare the qualities of the Gedolei Haposkim in the Dati L’umi versus Chareidi camps (though I think most agree that there are more “Gedolim” in the Chareidi camp). But it is possible to be pro-army service and still be following “Daas Torah”.
The thing is, these are YOUR gedolim. The people who think frum Jews should be in the army certainly hold these gedolim to be gedolim and hold them in reverence and respect, but they may not necessarily hold by their psak in this matter. It’s the same way that you may hold a chassidishe rebbe in high esteem, you won’t necessarily follow his rulings. They have other rabbanim whose psak they follow in this matter.
The whole “your gadol < my gadol” thing is irrelevant- “the gedolim” may all be great, but if these people happen not to follow their psak in this matter, you’re working in different spheres.
Simbin: I would assume, among others, Rav Aharon Lichtenstein, Rav Yehudah Amital ZTZ”L, Rav Aviner, Rav Ariel, Rav Yosef Tzvi Rimon, Rav Zecharya Ben-Shlomo, Rav Avigdor HaLeivi Nebanzahl (not positive what he holds on army service, but I don’t think he’s anti), Rav Zalman Nechemya Goldberg (same as with Rav Nebenzahl), and in America Rav Herchel Schachter, Rav Mordechai Willig, and more. This is just the list off the top of my head.
The problem is designating all those who are registered in yeshivot and kolelim as “tora schoalrs’. This is inflation in terminology that rivals the monetary inflations of post-WW1 Germany and post-WW2 Hungary. IMHO, the best solution would be to create militar batei midrash where participants would be required to pass exams given by the military rabbinate to prove their level of learning (when the Lakewood yeshiva had to weed out the goof-offs because of budget cuts it gave exams – ’nuff said). I would also require them to give shiurim to soldiers as part of their spiritual service.
Sam2- if you mean the same R Zalman nechemya Goldberg as in one of the biggest choshen mishpat dayanim in yerushalayim, he’s quite against, as far as i know.
The problem is designating all those who are registered in yeshivot and kolelim as “tora schoalrs’.
They only do so to get out of the army, and who can blame them? You and I don’t want to be in the army if we can avoid it, and neither do those who live in Tel Aviv.
As I have said before, if both sides were interested in a solution, they could sit down and have this solved in about 15 minutes. The problem is that the Charaidim want to keep their gelt, and the seculars are afraid that 10-20 years down the road, any agreement will be reneged on (once Charaidi + Dati become a majority in Jewish Israel), so they feel the need to “integrate” Charaidim.
A solution could look something like this:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/what-is-your-ideal-endgame-in-israel
Gavra ar work,
Most Charedim will happily give up the “gelt” as you put it in order to listen to the Gedolim and not go to the army. In fact, in addition to the share the burden law there are MANY ways the government is cutting back (more so then the general population)on what is given to the charadim including education.
Grow up already = User not found = Joe.
“Welcome” back.
Anyone else?
simbin: if I’m saying what you said, then either you’re misunderstanding me or I’m misunderstanding you.
I’m attempting to defend the right of the dati le’umi to respect “your” poskim and hold by their own. You seem to be doubting that they have any poskim who rule this way at all.
Is this what you’re saying, or do we actually agree?
Just BTW, I have dati le’umi friends and they most certainly follow the same rabbanim in both these matters and others. And no, this does not mean that they rely on kulos.
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