- This topic has 99 replies, 24 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 6 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
In cases where people who are held in high regard, in the Frum community, call a guilty person innocent, and an innocent person guilty….do they ever admit bad judgement/wrongdoing?
If they publicly admit having had bad judgement: Is it seen as a sign of strength or weakness?
Which is better for the Klal? When people held in high regard admit wrongdoing or not?
Isnt honesty and sincerity and public apology, supposed to be the best policy, Torah-wise and otherwise? A good example for the Klal?
What do you think?
depends if they reached the conclusion they erred on their own and manned up, or were forced to retract by some unknown body with alot of power.
There are two groups (with significant overlap). There are members of klal yisroel who view leaders as infallible (Though they of course claim they dont)These people get very confused when Leaders admit to mistakes.
There is another group who views leaders as humans prone to error, and with weaknesses/strengths like all people. This group appreciates when leaders admit mistakes.
Obviously there are exceptions in both directions
My mother A”H would sing a song when the grandkids were fighting it goes like this lets be friends make amends now’s the time to say I’m sorry.
I make the comparison to Chemotherapy, Its painful and the side effects hurt, however the Chemo gets rid of the cancer and you will be better off for taking the Chemo
I wouldn’t expect to hear anything resembling an apology out of Lakewood. They don’t have to, their followers have no choice but to continue to obey or be labeled a moser.
This case is not only very troubling because of the facts of it, but also because of two public letters – one published by one of the major poskei hador in the US, and another signed by 9 choshuve rabonim from the heilige community in question, where the family of the victim was castigated in the most heinous terms, the innocence of the individual -who has now admitted his guilt as other victims are coming forward- was proclaimed, and the suffering of the child(ren) involved was ignored. As well, a godol we all respected from E’Y got involved against the parents as well.
If those in authority who we respect can not or do not make admission of their clear error in this situation, and what they have learned and will take upon themselves for the future, as the Rambam directs us, how are we to measure their words in the next situation, or the one after that?
One of those leaders is someone I have asked shailos of in the past. After reading his letter about this situation, I am distraught. I can not see him in the same way. If he were to publicly admit his error, it would help, but I don’t think I would ever have the level of trust in him I had before.
And should I?
Without mentioning names, in a recent molestation case, the family of the victim was hounded, threatened and pressured to retract the accusal by people of importance. The family of the victim righfully did not want to see other children molested, so they did not.
Even worse, in this particular case, one prominent Rav not only defended the person who ended up pleading guilty, he even went so far as to publicly accuse the father of the victim of committing the crime.
The Wolf
the rabbonim involved should not only admit their mistake, but promise never to sign another letter/kol korei. not that it matters, because at this point their signature isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on.
chalilavchas -“Is/should effort be made by those who put pressure on the victim’s family, to ask Mechila from the family whose lives were made miserable and were demonized and chased out of their community, causing the innocent victim’s family immeasurable emotional, financial, etc hardships?”
I don’t want to change the subject, but molestation is Not the only bad thing that goes on. And I’m not refering to internet and lack of Tzinius.
Back to the topic -I read on another Frum website -that the next Asifa they should take all the Rabbonim and others who defended the perp and attacked the victim and put them on a Dais. At this Asifa they should publically ask Mechila to the victims and/or pay for their costs that were involved.
Brony
My head is also reeling about the names on those papers, but I am not ready to chas veshalom say such a thing about such big people. I think some of them were mislead and others well…I really don’t understand what they were thinking.
What I would like to know is are these papers signed by these Rabbonim signed because the Rabbonim truly want to write them and agree with what is written therein and hold that way or was there some sort of pressure by some powerful askanim and machers behind the scenes that kind of tied the Rabbonims hands and basically forced them to sign. Both are bad, but we need to find out for a fact if the Rabbonim are being manipulated or not and if they are, who is doing the manipulating and put them out of business if thats whats going on.
I just want to add that Rav David Cohen was consulted in this situation by the father in 2010 he advised him “Not only do I permit it, it is an obligation to go to the police.”
yes, anyone who errs should admit to and apologize for their errors, though it takes a lot of strength and courage to sometimes. But noone (with exception of other gedolim/those in place and right to give mussar) can push another to apologize or take back his words. Artchill did bring up a good point though, perhaps it happened but didn’t spread. Perhaps a direct apology and amends were made, and the hurt ones didn’t want their name and story to once again go public, so were content with the private one. And perhaps we just can’t understand the thoughts, understanding or cheshbonos of those that much greater than us. And don’t forget how media plays a broken telephone- we arent even allowed to believe 3rd hand information
just to preempt the argument: no, you can’t simply redefine anything they sign that ends up being wrong as “their gabbaim’s fault” or “they were misled” and then say “everything they REALLY sign is legit”. they knew exactly what the situation here was (see articles from 2010) and they toed the party line one time too many.
food for thought: what would the outcome of the case have been had they actually gone to a beis din to start with?
our entire beis din system is broken and needs to be reconstructed from scratch. the system was created for a society in which people took integrity seriously and judges were free to fact-find, but has been infested with agenda’ed rabbanim, so-called “to’eins,” and other imports from the adversarial american system, thereby deeming it ineffective.
It doesnt matter if they read the paper or not, if they signed it they are responsible.
Not reading what you signed is no excuse for anything.
The problem is that there’s such a belief that the rabbanim are ALWAYS right that it’s pretty much impossible for one to admit to being wrong- and not just from his perspective. I can completely understand if a rav was against this family due to misinformation (dlkz) and now, he suddenly realizes that he was wrong and is probably miserable right now. I know I would be, personally. But honestly, to those people who surround them, the admission that their leader is wrong would come out as a betrayal, as many above have mentioned.
An apology would bring back one amah the people who had already stepped back two amos, and it would push the others back two amos. As far as PR is concerned, there’s really no way to come out of this unscathed, but chances are, it would be WORSE for their image to apologize, sad as it may be.
The best thing they could do is REAL Tshuva
Real Tshuva is realizing your mistake, making amends to the injured party AND making sure it never happens again.
I would respect someone who makes an apology and then TODAY (or after Yom Tov if its too late) makes real reforms needed so it NEVER happens again.
chalilavchas- I emphasized- PR-wise that would be the better solution.
What the moral solution I would expect of our rabbanim is- I think it’s obvious.
ETA: I think I get what you’re talking about a bit more now. The problem is that we see all the time- my rav says this so it must be right. It’s disillusioning to discover that someone you respect is wrong, and many try to evade that knowledge for as long as possible.
A mistake doesn’t undermine the concept of daas torah. Neither does an apology. It does, however, undermine everything daas torah has stood for in this daas askan vs. daas baal habayyis world. So its either back to the ranch or dig deeper.
also shady (and arguably partially culpable): not a single story on ywn about this. pretending it doesn’t exist exacerbates the issue.
In one case how can you say he was misled? The letter explicitly stated he did a thorough investigation.
Admitting bad judgment will allow you to partially recover some credibility with the people who have already decided that your judgment was bad. On the other hand, admitting bad judgment will cause you to lose credibility with people who have held faith in your judgment.
haShem sees that your judgment is deficient; hence admitting your bad judgment increases your credibility with haShem. Don’t Jews get together and go on and on abut what %$! ups they are on a regular basis? I thought this was called selichos or something. Or do Rabbonim say something different?
chalilavchas -“Will any publication speak up, in a polite, bekovodik, tactful way regarding innocents who were demonized? Or, will it be shoved under the rug?”
It will be shoved under the carpet. And I’ll tell you why because what happened in this case and others were big guys were wrong is because a few Askanim convince a few Rabbonim who are influenced by these people and they make a bad Psak. Not all Rabbonim are influenced by Shoychad (there are all types of Shoychad, not just money) and then the other Rabbonim who aren’t the type to be influenced just think if this Rav said so it must be so and join along the crowd. We don’t necessarily have to get rid of our Rabbonim, but definitely this basing of the Psak on the politically correct side has to stop. This might mean retiring some Rabbonim, but what goes on now is Not the Torah way!
Chalilavachas
Yes. Basically when it hits the likes of Hamodia, Yated and such is when the kids in school already know all about it and are talking about it. This is one of those topics they won’t go near any time soon.
chalilavchas -“And what about catering to their readership? The Frume Oilem would benefit greatly by the airing of this issue in a respectful way.”
They would never touch it. They don’t want anyone proclaiming that it’s Ossur to read their paper. Even on the Net how many people would stand up against wrong behavior if e/o wasn’t anonymous? I know I would.
Not admitted bad judgement will cause people to lose faith, Most people are forgiving and will allow ONE MISTAKE
However anything more than that, will cause a tremendous lost of faith
So potentially this could keep happening with no hope for change?
So potentially this could keep happening with no hope for change?
Yes, It will take the leadership to want to change, before change will occur, It might occur with them kicking and screaming, but they can be forced if needed.
It has taken the catholic church a while to change and costed them Millions (if not more) to change and even brough down the Pope
Well what would make the leadership want to change? It’s a scary thought to me that in such a situation someone could suffer twice over and nothing can be done about it.
Chalilavachas
I can’t imagine any askan touching this with a ten foot pole. As a general rule askanim will not get involved in unpopular ventures and certainly not those which will tarnish their name and make them lose their reputation. After all these Rabbanim sided with the guilty party theres no way anyone would publicly go and help the other side. I think the Rabbanim who signed that kol koreh including a famous Rosh Yeshivah should open their bank accounts and help out this mishpacha from their own money. No pidgeon shvuyim campaign on the klals cheshbon. Actually pay from their own pocket. That would be a fitting apology and would show the oilum that they take back what they said and have the backbone to admit when they are wrong. However this is all crazy talk and wishful thinking. Life will go on and nothing will change until one day a kid of someone too important and high up for the Rabbonim to ignore will suffer molestation and the whole thing will come crashing down and they wont know what to do with themselves.
Let’s not forget how quickly the OU website retracted their statement of support for the victim of another recent molestation case after pressure from within that community. If they can’t even stand strong applauding a molester’s guilty verdict, I doubt the OU would let a respected rabbi go because of it.
I am not sure of his association with the O-U . I dont know if he is an employee or just an advisor.
Usually in the world when someone is accused of something bad, They would be temporarily suspended from their position and an investigation done. Their final punishment would be based on the findings of the investigation , either vindication or expulsion.
According to a recent Mishpacha article he is the top posek for the OU.
chalilavchas -“Hopefully the OU will take a very in depth serious look at Rabbi B’s position, who is an important part of the OU.”
Stop trying to blame this on him. As s/o who has dealt with Rabbonim in the past -I think he was more of a follower than the leaders. There are some Rabbonim esp. here in Lakewood that are more leaders. While blame should be brought on all of them, IMHO the ones who take the lead are more responsible for these type of incidents than the Rabbonim who just go with the flow.
meanwhile, all the right-wing yeshivish ppl are calling for Obama’s head over IRS. lol, just lol.
This is not the first time he has supported suspected molesters despite plenty of evidence. It’s not even the second. And accusing the victim’s family of abuse? In my eyes that is just inexcusable.
chalilavchas -“Im not the Judge, Hashem is, but when I read this sentence off Rabbi B’s statement, I cringe: etc.”
Unfortunately, I’m well aware of what goes on. And the fact that he made such a statement or signed such a statement -I do Not condone. But, I’m trying to tell you based on my own personal dealings with them and I can honestly say the case was not molestation, but something equally bad or worse, and Rav B. IMHO is more from the follower type than of the leader type. I believe the leaders of these Rabbonim share more of the responsibilities for these fiascos -than those who follow these leaders blindly.
According to a recent Mishpacha article he is the top posek for the OU.
That is actually fairly vague, I was more commenting on his assciation
Does he go to the O-U office (or off-site location) every day and a W-2 employee
Does he regulary work for the O-U (Like once a week) on a 1099 , but it is regulary.
Or does the o-U only use his services on a rare as- needed basis when a complex issue comes up
What his exact association is matters here. if he is an employee they would have to fire him, but if he is only consulted rarely when a complex issue comes up, they could just get someone else.
The closer the association the more difficuly it is for the O-U to get rid of him.
zdad – the rabbi in question is the go-to posek for several OU agencies, including the one dealing with Jewish youth. He is regularly consulted, and is also regularly a participant in staff training and conferences.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.