- This topic has 132 replies, 31 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 4 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
i just got a job in a medical office and im just wondering any of you think there is something wrong? its just me (single 17 girl)and the doctor….i know hes a yiras shamayaim(more than me for sure lol) but still something in the back of my head is telling me that maybe this isnt safe or halachically okay
Yes, it is a problem. Speak to a Rov immediately.
It’s hard to say for sure without further details, but it definitely does sound sketchy.
your still not marriageable age. besides if your worried about halachicly before you speak to a rav, you can find a reason to leave the lobby door open so the office is not totally enclosed then you are open to the public versus if you were a nurse you might sometimes be in a private room with him
speak to your LOR ASAP
MA,
What does marriageable age have anything to do with it?
It is just you and the doctor?
Surely there are patients who come to see the doctor during the day?
Ok, definitely creepy, davka because she IS underage. If chas vishalom he wasn’t yiras shamayim and was planning other plans it’s easier to intimidate younger girls and blackmail them, especially ones underage.
Not saying you are young, but I mean like under 18 but old enough to work…
It’s definitely not a safe situation. Even if there are cameras he technically has control over them and can choose whether he wants to hide, erase, or edit the film.
I’m sorry, but someone had to say this. There are creepy people out there, unfortunately-even frum ones. People assume because there are cameras or because they are online and things are anonymous or because, because, because this or that it’s okay. It is NOT. I have heard way to many stories of people relying on things in their envirement.
For your own safety please please try to work something out so that you will never be alone with him.
Sounds wrong. Speak to a rov BEFORE you start.
Why are some posters using the word “creepy”? You’re making certain assumptions without basis. How many doctors do you know that have a male secretary? If there is a problem with yichud then she needs to deal with it as prescribed by her rav without attributing negative intentions to the doctor.
If he takes the proper precautions, you won’t hurt him.
Because any situation where a man (whom is probably in his 30’s or 40’s) is hiring an underage woman and no one else will be around strikes me as creepy, that’s all. Of course there will be patienets, but before, and between, and he might ask her to work after hours on paperwork. I know someone personally who was in such a situation and was actually drugged using drugs a dentist uses (she was working for a dentist). It didn’t end well at all.
There’s dan likaf zechut, and then there’s being sensibly safe. Unfortunately women have to always make sure that they are safe from predators.
Unfortunately there’s a lot of bad people in this world.
mik5. I was wondering the same thing. surely patients would be coming in and out all day.
A yirei shomayim will not transgress issur yichud. Must be there are patients coming it from time to time.
Joe-“Yes, it is a problem. Speak to a Rov immediately.”
This goes on throughout the business world! Not just in doc’s offices. Firstly, people go in and out all day long. After closing it could be problematic – if they’re there alone.
But the posters here are always making a mountain out of a moehill!
“How many doctors do you know that have a male secretary?”
How many doctors do you know that have ONE staff person, no nurses or anything, and that one person is a 17 year old? Forget gender for a second. Something’s off here.
A friend of mine asked Rav Sheinberg, Zatsal about accepting a job in an office where she felt uncomfortable for similar reasons. He told her not to take the job and he added, “Do you know how many girls get pregnant working in offices?”
So Health, even if it is something that happens all the time and has become accepted practice, it doesn’t make it okay. I don’t want to go into details here, but many terrible things have happened as a result of people doing things that had become accepted, but should have realized were problematic. People need to think and not assume that something is okay just because it has become accepted. Girls should rely on their gut instincts when it comes to tznius and not allow themselves to be put in situations where they are uncomfortable. Too often, girls feel like they have to repress their feelings in order to go along with others’ opinions.
I definitely agree with everyone who wrote that she should ask a Rav immediately. Either that, or just go with your guy instincts and don’t take the job. Honestly, I’ve never understood why it’s considered acceptable for a man to have a female secretary or assistant!
It’s shady, even if it’s not shady in the gender type creepy way. Are you getting a working permit or something? I don’t know about the laws where you live but most places, if it’s legal need you to register for tax and stuff.
JF2 -“How many doctors do you know that have ONE staff person, no nurses or anything, and that one person is a 17 year old? Forget gender for a second. Something’s off here!”
You’re right! Something is off – your post!
Many small businesses have only one secretary. The owner is male and the secretary is female!
Many small businesses have only one secretary, but it is not normal for a medical office to have only a secretary and a doctor. And the reason most secretaries are female is because males working the same job get different titles.
sadgirlygirl- maybe go to college instead and go get yourself a nice education?
To the OP:
Tell me you’re just trolling (from the wording of the question), you’re not actually gonna be there…
GET REAL.. use Bina Yeseira HaShem gave to womenfolk – for this purpose – to see things through. Use your unbiased intuition and DON’T feel sorry c”v later. If one shouldn’t trust one’s OWN Yetzer, how much more someone else’s!!! What does the Mishna say about the level of Yiras Shamaim of doctors in general???
Regardless of the Psak of your Rabbi or Rov, I say take extreme care, and again, don’t be sorry c”v later..
LU -“So Health, even if it is something that happens all the time and has become accepted practice, it doesn’t make it okay.”
I didn’t say it was OK. I wrote -“After closing it could be problematic – if they’re there alone.
But the posters here are always making a mountain out of a moehill!”
Tell me you’re just trolling
…and I just might believe you.
Health, you wrote: This goes on throughout the business world! Not just in doc’s offices. Firstly, people go in and out all day long. After closing it could be problematic – if they’re there alone.
But the posters here are always making a mountain out of a moehill!
It sounds like your’e saying it’s okay as long as it’s not after closing hours, and that you consider it to be making a mountain out of a molehill if it’s just during day time hours.
If that’s not what you meant then please clarify what you meant, esp. the part about making a mt. out of a molehill.
She should have asked a Rav prior to accepting this job but unless this is a back office you will have clients, salesmen and others coming in and out of the office.
This is why some offices only hire one sex. The problem with that is it is discriminatory. I don’t think the doctor is trying to do anything other then running a practice to pay off his student loans.
If the receptionist is unhappy, she should look for another job.
Lf,
I had the same thought too, but I stopped calling people trolls
DROP THE JOB!!
Your 17, in college and dont have the guts to quit, working in (based on the discussion here) a remote basement where it is just you and the doctor, or at times, you and a male patient (but no doctor?) and noone else? You are concerned about yichud, but not your personal safety. That about sums up your dilemma?
Where are your parents?
Sadgirlygirl -“im alone with him most of the day..and another point he isnt here right now so im alone with a different male patient..”
Now this is a question. Ask your local Rabbi or your family’s Rabbi.
Don’t come here for some anonymous advice!
LU -“It sounds like your’e saying it’s okay as long as it’s not after closing hours, and that you consider it to be making a mountain out of a molehill if it’s just during day time hours.”
That’s exactly what I’m saying!
But this situation could be different and I just responded to that!
I’m confused about this whole discussion
I’m not sure why you’d have to be alone in the office with him with nobody about to arrive
the bottom line is
We have a shulchan aruch their is no need to add your own rules. Their are English guidebooks that can help as well I believe R’ Ribiat has one.
If working there will violate hilchos yichud then it is assur. IF it wont then it isnt.
What am I missing? As far as the specifics of this case, Not nearly enough details are provided. who else works there? who has access to enter? Are the doors locked? Are staff/patients always arriving? etc etc
She is supposedly, 17, where are her parents? Has she expressed her concerns to them so that they can consult the family Rav since this is presented as a halachic question?
Ubiquitin: “We have a shulchan aruch their is no need to add your own rules.”
When it comes to tznius, there are a lot of grey areas. That is why we have Rabbanim to posken or advise in specific situations. That is also why Hashem gave us common sense, and gave women a sense of intuition as well which they should learn to trust when they feel uncomfortable with a situation.
sadgirlygirl: “im alone with him most of the day..and another point he isnt here right now so im alone with a different male patient.”
This sounds like a really bad situation. I understand that it is hard for you to quit, and I can understand your concerns about what people will say and getting another job. I have been in similar situations many times in my life (although the reasons were different).
But at the end of the day, you will be proud of yourself if you muster up the courage to quit. It will give you more self-confidence which will serve you well in all your future endeavors in parnassah and shidduchim.
It will make you a stronger person although it’s hard to see it now.
I have been through a lot of difficult things in my life and had to make a lot of difficult decisions. I have had to quit jobs because of halachic considerations, and it was hard and I didn’t necessarily see a yeshua right away. But I can see now that I am a much stronger person as a result and my emunah in Hashem has been strengthened.
Remember – “lfum tsaarah agrah” “The harder it is, the greater the rewared.” Since it is such a hard decision to make, Hashem will reward you tremendously although you might not see it right away.
OP, you have a job to do. People will be coming and going all day in a doctor’s office. The office door is presumably unlocked. You are worried about something that should have been of concern before you took this job.
If the doctor is a yarei Shamayim (not Yiras Shamayim; he HAS yiras Shamayimh if he is a YAREI Shamayim), then he, too knows the Halacha. Speak to your own Rov if this is really an issue for you. Otherwise, be a professional, act professionally at all times, and schedule patients at times that allow you to feel comfortable that you will not be alone for extended time with him. All this goes out the window if he were to act or speak in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable. Then you leave. JMO.
im alone with him most of the day..and another point he isnt here right now so im alone with a different male patient..
There are no patients who come to the office for most of the day? Is the “male patient” frum? Is the doctor frum? Two frum men are allowed to be alone with a woman [during the day]. Is the door locked or unlocked? Is it a real medical office? When the doctor is not there, does he have a key to get in and he could come back at any time? What kind of a doctor is this?
What am I missing?
The fifth chelek of Shulchan Aruch.
“What am I missing?
The fifth chelek of Shulchan Aruch.”
sorry, Im not at all versed in fake halacha. I defer to DY.
I think Avi Weiss is working on rewriting the shulchan aruch with a 5th chelek. The one I have from R” Yosef Karro has 4
We count 49 days between Pesach and Shavuos, but there are really 50 levels. The 50th level is the one that puts it all together.
There are four chalakim of the Shulchan Aruch, but the “fifth one” represents the seichel of the person who has learned the four chalakim but now has to figure out how to apply it to his life even when it’s not clear-cut. So it’s not really a separate cheilik per se’ – it’s the way of understanding the other four chalakim.
I call troll. When was the last time you were in a doctor’s office with only one other employee? There’s one male patient and no doctor? She’s 17, in college, and afraid to quit a job because people will call her a quitter and it will ruin her chances for shidduchim?
Yehudayon: “She’s 17, in college, and afraid to quit a job because people will call her a quitter and it will ruin her chances for shidduchim?”
There’s nothing unbelievable about that. She’s a girl. A boy wouldn’t understand.
lilmod
Her questuion was whether it is”halachicly ok” I am not saying if the guy sems liek a sleaze ball or something seems off about a medical practice with no patients or nurses she should work there anyway.
I am addressing halacha. Which is what she asked.
As for halacha we have a guide. Adding your own rules, and paskening based on them is what reform does. saying pizza is assur because it is in the fifth chelek of shulchan aruch or working in an unlocked office where patients are constantly walking in and out is assur because it is in the fifth shulchan aruch is reform.
Again there is obviously no chiyuv to work there and if it seems off or her common sense/intution says something is off, of course she shoudlnt work there. Though not because of a halachic concern. Sorry if i wasnt clear about that.
She asked, and I was addressing whether it is “halachicaly ok”
There are things she should be wary of that can ruin more than Shidduchim. At times people’s priorities become warped (supposing this thread is not a troll, which I surely hope it is).
Again, to the OP, I don’t know you, nor do I care to. If you’re a Bas Yisroel, a coreligionist, I call out to you to take much caution… it’s a wild ride out there… There’s a lot, a lot you don’t understand, comprehend, cannot fathom.. DON’T BE SORRY LATER.
If your own juvenile, innocent intuition has not alerted you yet, or maybe too overwhelmed by transient, temporal glitter), take it from those more experienced…
You are smart to question the situation you are in.
Do not worry about what people will think, or that they will equate this situation with shidduchim.
Most people won’t know you had a job that you left, do not put it on your resume. It will soon be forgotten. With regard to people who do know you are working, either explain the situation and they should respect you for your decision. If they are the type you are worried about, just say it wasn’t a good place for you/ you didn’t like the job/ your boss hired his niece…… It will soon be behind you. Hashem will repay you for acting l’shem Shomayim – only good will come out of it.
LU -“But at the end of the day, you will be proud of yourself if you muster up the courage to quit.”
Who are you to tell her to quit?
She definitely needs advice, not from anonymous posters, but from her parents or from a Rov or from both!
DY -“The fifth chelek of Shulchan Aruch.”
They say common sense is Not too Common!
sadgirl – everyone is telling you to stand up to your parents, rav etc without having a clue what kind of relationship you have with them. Would your parents be concerned about yichud? If yes, then if you don’t feel able to tell them you are quitting or scared etc, you can tell them you are concerned about being there so often alone. They themselves may say it is a halachik issue and tell you to leave.
You do have to understand, however, that without more info the story does sound a bit off. Dr’s don’t typically leave the office when patients are there, it would be irresponsible and unprofessional. And I don’t remember you saying it was a basement like one poster suggested, is it out in public?
SL -“And I don’t remember you saying it was a basement like one poster suggested”
Where did one poster say that? Maybe it was deleted?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.