I'm anti Zionist now

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  • #615039
    kj chusid
    Participant

    I have changed my mind and am now anti zionist

    #1158195
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Nice try.

    #1158196
    BuyPaint
    Participant

    Tax the rich. Inflate the poor.

    Zionism might never hit the door.

    G-d is True.

    B’H

    #1158197
    markbilk
    Member

    “There is more Zionism in Shir Hamaalos Beshuv Hashem than in the Hatikvah” (quote from Rav Matisyahu Salomon shlita)

    #1158198
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    MArkblik. So Dovid Hamelech was a zionist too. Nu?

    #1158199
    Moshe1994
    Participant

    I’m pretty sure Moshiach is going to be a Zionist.

    #1158200
    golfer
    Participant

    Oy.

    Until all the Peerrim Rebbes out there figure out that the Zionism of Dovid Hamelech and, le’havdil, the zionism of Theodor Herzl, are two completely different entities, we are all doomed to hear ad infinitum & ad nauseum the same old same old same old…

    The only way to get away from it is for someone to start a shidduch thread.

    Any -wicked evil mothers, frustrated fathers, frustrated shadchanim, older guys, older girls, OOT’s who can’t get dates, girls with pictures, girls who don’t take pictures, guys in the freezer, guys on a date, guys wondering where to date, -willing to take up the cause?

    ***Or perhaps some sweet young lady wants to know about the merits of Machon Raya vs Nachlas vs Chemdas vs Tiferes vs Ateres vs Atzeres vs Mishmeres, all in one breath l’chovod Purim?

    #1158201
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That was an amazing imitation of golfer.

    I’m pretty sure the zionists are responsible for the shidduch crisis.

    #1158202
    Health
    Participant

    147-“I have changed my mind and am now anti zionist”

    You don’t have to be “anti”, just you don’t have to proselytize for them!

    Here or anywhere.

    #1158203
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Kj chusid was always anti Zionist.

    #1158204
    golfer
    Participant

    Vashti,

    😉

    #1158205
    BarryLS1
    Participant

    Golfer: For many of the secularists, especially the Leftists, this is the “Post Zionist” era. The real Zionists today are the religious Zionists, not the Herzl zionists.

    #1158206
    Health
    Participant

    BarryLS1 -“Golfer: For many of the secularists, especially the Leftists, this is the “Post Zionist” era. The real Zionists today are the religious Zionists, not the Herzl zionists”

    I’m Rav Health –

    I hate to throw a monkey wrench into your post (Not really), but who are you calling Religious?? The Herzl Zionists agreed that Frum people don’t have to go to the army. Nowadays – the “Religious Zionists” which Biyet Hayehudi (NRP – Mizrachi) is part of the gov., passed the law forcing e/o to be drafted!

    #1158207
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ROB

    Was your comment supposed to make sense? With Purim so close its hard to tell.

    The Herzl Zionists compromised that frum don’t need to go to the army based on realities at the time. Times change. Are you saying Ben Gurion liked the idea of Long term learning for all then ? Are you saying he would still support it now? What on Earth are you talking about?

    Of course if you meant it as a Purim post apologies. Some posts are so silly it is hard to tell see Poe’s law

    #1158208

    I don’t even know wat that is

    #1158209
    Health
    Participant

    GAW -“ROB”

    I’m Rav Health – Not ROB!

    “Was your comment supposed to make sense? With Purim so close its hard to tell.

    The Herzl Zionists compromised that frum don’t need to go to the army based on realities at the time. Times change.”

    They made an agreement. Who says they wouldn’t abide by the agreement, even though it’s 2015?

    ” Are you saying Ben Gurion liked the idea of Long term learning for all then ? “

    No.

    “Are you saying he would still support it now?”

    He didn’t support it then, but he made an agreement.

    “What on Earth are you talking about?”

    Herzl’s followers would Not renegade on their agreement, like the “so-called” -“Religious Zionists”!

    #1158210
    BarryLS1
    Participant

    rabbiofberlin: The Chazon Ish said that we needed two generations of exclusive Torah learning to rebuild Torah after WWII. That has long ended and B”H it was successful. Now it’s time to get back to normal.

    Many Chareidim want to be able to support their families. Not everyone is sitting and learning, nor can they. Poverty is being forced on them by their leadership. While it was foolish to force the issue, especially since it backfired, Chareidim, in increasing numbers, were joining the IDF or doing Sheirut Leumi.

    You have to understand Israeli politics. The last government was held together by a thread. That gave Lapid lots of power. At the same time, Bennett countered him in every way possible and minimized the damage. There were even articles in the Chareidi press that Chareidi politicians weren’t too upset by the bill despite their yelling, because they knew that it really had no teeth and could have been far worse.

    Those bochrim that were arrested for a short time, weren’t being drafted. They only had to report for a rating, as they always had, but were told not too go. That forced the government’s hand to take action.

    It’s not just an issue of the IDF, it’s about getting out of poverty. The demand for more and more welfare, by an already overburden public, among other issues, created a backlash that created Lapid.

    There are better ways of doing things than a constant heavy handed approach to everything, without changing anyone’s hashkofo. Just being more diplomatic. It’s not what you say, it’s how you say it and if it’s not a halachic issue, compromise once in a while and have an understanding of other people’s needs too.

    #1158211
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Barry, the charedi leadership isn’t forcing poverty on anyone; if anything the government is, by forcing people into the army if they’re not in yeshiva.

    #1158212
    DikDukDuck
    Participant

    The Zionism we all know and love or not is a political matter.

    #1158213
    BarryLS1
    Participant

    vashtischwartz: How is the government forcing poverty on people? That’s nonsense. On the contrary, people in poverty get public funds and don’t pay taxes. That serves no ones benefit.

    You can’t blame the government for peer pressure against getting the necessary skills, working and making a decent living. You have to have skills that people are willing to pay for.

    How many Chareidim are being forced into the army? So far, NONE! It is a law in Israel that everyone of age serves in the army. Full-time Yeshiva students have been exempt all these years. Many Rabbonim have said, that if you’re not learning, you should serve.

    What you are saying that a Chareidi who is NOT learning shouldn’t have to make the same commitment as everyone else. How is that justifiable? They also have the option of Sheirut Leumi, of doing community service in their own neighborhoods. Let everyone else’s children make the sacrifices, afterall, you’re better than they are.

    So your answer is; don’t work, don’t support your family, don’t learn and don’t do community service. Let everyone else do everything for you and they should pay you for the privilege of taking care of you. Then blame them that you’re in poverty because they can’t afford to do more for you.

    That makes sense!

    #1158214
    oomis
    Participant

    Hashem didn’t exempt most men from serving and fighting in the Midbar, and later on in EY. There were specific exceptions. Not a one included those who are learning. Those were milchamos mitzvah. Does anyone believe it is not a mitzvah to defend Am Yisroel and EY today, as well?

    #1158215
    mybrother
    Member

    well said BarryLS1,

    Its nice to see that there are some people who can still think clearly!

    #1158216
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Barry, the army is a bad place for a Jewish child to be. I think even charliehall once posted that at one time a high percentage of hesder boys went OTD (although now it’s better).

    So as long as army service is a requirement, anyone who won’t join the army for religious reasons is severely handicapped in making a living.

    I don’t know the politics of abolishing the draft, although I did hear that MK Feiglin had been working on it. If that happens, you’ll see a much different charedi approach to working.

    #1158217
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ROB/ Health (that makes more sense)

    “hey made an agreement. Who says they wouldn’t abide by the agreement, even though it’s 2015?”

    In writing? what kind of agreement do you think was made? You think it lasts forever no matter what changes? You have a childish/imaginative view of history

    “Herzl’s followers would Not renegade on their agreement, like the “so-called” -“Religious Zionists”!”

    Lol! if you beleive that you are a bigger zionist than I am

    Happy Purim

    #1158218
    Health
    Participant

    BarryLS1 -“rabbiofberlin:” I’m Rav Health.

    “The Chazon Ish said that we needed two generations of exclusive Torah learning to rebuild Torah after WWII. That has long ended and B”H it was successful. Now it’s time to get back to normal.”

    Israel isn’t Normal, & never will be.

    “Many Chareidim want to be able to support their families. Not everyone is sitting and learning, nor can they. Poverty is being forced on them by their leadership. While it was foolish to force the issue, especially since it backfired, Chareidim, in increasing numbers, were joining the IDF or doing Sheirut Leumi.”

    The reason that there aren’t more Chareidim working is because the gov. forces them to go to the army first!

    “You have to understand Israeli politics. The last government was held together by a thread. That gave Lapid lots of power. At the same time, Bennett countered him in every way possible and minimized the damage. There were even articles in the Chareidi press that Chareidi politicians weren’t too upset by the bill despite their yelling, because they knew that it really had no teeth and could have been far worse.”

    You make it seem that Bennett is a Tzaddik, but the first thing he did was make a deal with Lapid.

    “Those bochrim that were arrested for a short time, weren’t being drafted. They only had to report for a rating, as they always had, but were told not too go. That forced the government’s hand to take action.”

    If you take $ from the gov., then this is expected.

    “It’s not just an issue of the IDF, it’s about getting out of poverty. The demand for more and more welfare, by an already overburden public, among other issues, created a backlash that created Lapid.”

    All they have to do is let people work without prior army service.

    “There are better ways of doing things than a constant heavy handed approach to everything, without changing anyone’s hashkofo. Just being more diplomatic. It’s not what you say, it’s how you say it and if it’s not a halachic issue, compromise once in a while and have an understanding of other people’s needs too.”

    But it is an Halachic issue; which obviously you & others can’t understand!

    #1158219
    Health
    Participant

    OOmis -“Does anyone believe it is not a mitzvah to defend Am Yisroel and EY today, as well?”

    Why should it be a Mitzvah? Let them leave Israel to the Arabs!

    #1158220
    Health
    Participant

    GAW -“In writing? what kind of agreement do you think was made? You think it lasts forever no matter what changes? You have a childish/imaginative view of history”

    Do you think that the US Constitution lasts forever? The agreement from the founding leaders in Israel, called the “status-quo” is like the Constitution!

    “Lol! if you beleive that you are a bigger zionist than I am”

    This has nothing to do with Zionism. Previous generations were honest, no matter what their religious belief was!

    #1158221
    147
    Participant

    I love Israel, and Netanyahu and abhor anyone who even contemplated protesting against Netanyohu, who is such an Oheiv Yisroel.

    #1158222
    kj chusid
    Participant

    I was by the protest it was great how come there’s nothing on ywn about it ps when is this name switch joke gonna be over?

    #1158223
    OURtorah
    Participant

    Where is ourtorah?? Who has taken over my lovely name??

    #1158224
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    I just noticed that my name is being used by mistake. I must be a Purim joke by the authorities. Not one of the many comments b ROB are from me.

    #1158225
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    well health and rabbi of berlin have been switched!

    #1158226
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ROB

    You are making less and less sense.

    A. The U.S. constitution is in writing

    B. It has been amendended 27 times to date! Sure it cant just be changed wily nily, there is a legislative process. But just becasue an “agreement” was made 200 years ago or even 60 years ago. Does not make it binding for all enternity. As relaities change things change

    C. “Previous generations were honest, no matter what their religious belief was!” So kidnapping yaldei Teiman was honest?

    #1158227
    BarryLS1
    Participant

    vashtischwartz: Just because Charlie Hall says something, doesn’t make it accurate. If someone is going off the derech, they will without the IDF, or it was just a handy excuse. You don’t see Hesder Yeshiva students going off the derech.

    Many Chilonim have become Baalei Teshuva after interacting with Frum soldiers in the IDF. I bought something from a Chassidish guy in Meah Shearim (he lives there too) and he told me that he became a Baal Teshuvah because of the IDF.

    The argument that you have to go to the IDF to work and that is the reason for poverty in the Chareidi community is false. They have the option of Sheirut Leumi, doing community service in their own neighborhoods and that gives people the same benefits as serving in the IDF. It’s just an excuse people give to avoid taking personal responsibility.

    MK Gafne said, “If you work, you’re not a Chareidi.” Something is very wrong with that mentality. I grew up in the states and only made Aliyah 2 1/2 years ago. I grew up in BP and also lived in a very Frum community outside of NY consisting of Yeshivish and Chassidish people and Davened in a Chassidish Shteibel for almost 30 years, the equivalent of Chareidi in Israel. Everyone learned, but they also worked and supported their families. The arguments of blaming others is utter nonsense.

    #1158228
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That’s baloney. There’s no charedi shittah of shirking responsibility. It’s the simple reality that the army is not conducive to yiras shamayim, to say the least. The same communities (i.e. chassidic groups with the same leaders) have many more people working in chutz la’aretz than in E.Y.

    I have no idea what the S.L. situation is, but they don’t have such a requirement in C.L., and more people work.

    That’s not what Gafne said.

    #1158229
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    And yes, when the government makes it illegal to work without first fulfilling conditions that are ideologically objectionable to a group, they get blame for that group’s poverty. Just abolish the draft, and there will be a big change.

    #1158230
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: I am saddened to see your recent comments (if it is you!) because it puts you in unpleasant company.

    #1158231
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m very happy to be in the company of people such as R’ A.L. Shteinman Shlit”a.

    #1158232
    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    Some people might have forgotten that the chareidi tzibbur follows the rulings and opinions of the Gedolei Torah shlit”a. All the analyses, the hair-splitting, and the injecting of personal opinions on this forum and elsewhere as to what people should be doing or not doing are basically irrelevant. A certain relative of mine asked me a while back, in all sincerity if I thought that it’s a mitzva or a kiddush Hashem that the boys should serve in the IDF. I told her that what I say is immaterial. Go discuss it with Rav Chaim Kanievsky and Rav Aaron Leib Shteinman, and if you convince them, then it’s fine with me . . . And she said, “yeah, you’re right.” So, all this verbiage about this particular case, or that specific baal teshuva who became frum due to meeting some frum fellow in the army, etc. I’m not doubting for a moment that the facts are true. I’m saying take your evidence, your facts, your anecdotes — to the Gedolei Torah and see what they say about it.

    #1158233
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Also, rob, I’m surprised at your comment. You’ve always said you want more charedim working. I’m agreeing with you, and you’re saddened by that? The CR’s recent v’nahapoch hu seems to have affected you. 🙂

    #1158234
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: Even if you don’t do the army you can work at a certain age. The number of Chareidi men working past that age is insanely low.

    #1158235
    Yosi7
    Member

    KJ Chusid- The protest was a tremendous Chillul Hashem. You guys clapped every time Obama’s name was mentioned. Also, PLS explain how it is not Hisgares B’umos to make this protest even though the NYPD asked you guys not to go? (Also, isn’t having kiryas Yoel “Hisgares B’umos”–rebelling against the nations?).

    #1158236
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam: Reserves

    #1158237

    Sam: That age is quite high, something like 30 or 40. After the government having legally prevented them from working until that age, by time they can legally work they have little experience or prospects for an above minimum-wage job.

    #1158238

    Yosi: It isn’t a C”H to applaud Obama. Sorry, you might disagree with Obama but you mis-define C”H. Why would the police care if anyone had a rally in Manhattan? They’re a dime a dozen in the city. And KY was created legally under NY’s laws. They didn’t create an armed militia to create the town.

    #1158239

    There is a lot of anti Semitism in this thread. Some is even “blind, naked, anti Semitism”, based on the intelligence quotient of the comments. I think that anyone will agree that preventing someone from working is forcing poverty. Unless you have an ulterior motive. Such as an anti charedi one.

    #1158240
    kj chusid
    Participant

    What nolongersingle said It was a good protest but the weather was horrible

    #1158241

    Oomis: the exemption for men fighting for Hashem included people that did aveiros and were a liability for the army. I think that includes the IDF. A high ranking official once admitted that they drafted girls to get the boys to join. Enough said.

    #1158242
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: Miluim don’t stop you from getting a job. Nor do you have to do Miluim if you didn’t do the army.

    nolongersingle: The age is 28, I believe. Maybe 26 if you have two kids or something like that. It’s not young, but it’s not that old. You can find jobs and start with low-paying ones and move your way up, like everyone else does. So you started 8-10 years later? Who cares?

    #1158243
    Health
    Participant

    ubiquitin-“ROB”

    I told you my name is Rav Health.

    “You are making less and less sense.

    A. The U.S. constitution is in writing”

    So agreements Not in writing can be broken???!!

    “B. It has been amendended 27 times to date! Sure it cant just be changed wily nily, there is a legislative process. But just becasue an “agreement” was made 200 years ago or even 60 years ago. Does not make it binding for all enternity. As relaities change things change”

    It can’t be changed, just amended. Do you know the difference?

    “C. “Previous generations were honest, no matter what their religious belief was!” So kidnapping yaldei Teiman was honest?”

    It’s amazing! You’re comparing something that the Jewish agency did back then, to the whole government of Israel. Nowadays, especially with the growth of the Frum population, it should be better for Frumkeit, NOT worse!

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