January 8, 2012 11:06 am at 11:06 am #846252lesschumrasParticipant
Food production in the 50’s WAS simpler because it was before emulsifiers,preservatives, artificial dyes etc. The candy bars sold in my yeshiva’s canteen listed ingredients you could actually understand without advanced degrees i.e. milk, sugar, nuts and chocolate. The two big no-nos were gelatin and shorteningJanuary 8, 2012 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #846253ill_be_strongParticipant
I understand that you are approaching this with a pre-convinced mind-set and will never change your mind even earth and sky come together, but its also true that I’m not here to change your mind. However, there are those who read this and may want to learn. So, can you please enlighten us and tell us where the CC specifically says that LH is ONLY when its with a name?January 8, 2012 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #846254HealthParticipant
ill_be_strong – Actually I’m not going to research it for you because it’s time consuming. Take a C.C. and start from the beginning and you’ll know what I’m saying is true.
I’ve learned C.C. umteen times over many years and this basic I know. But, No I haven’t memorized the whole Sefer to know exactly where it is! Seek and you shall find!January 8, 2012 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #846255
Thank you.January 8, 2012 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #846256ill_be_strongParticipant
That’s what I thought…January 8, 2012 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #846257
yitay: while I acknowledge that my main issue is not with you, it is with Rav Abadi, you do bear some personal responsibility for the tumult here.
It is a mistake to mention an extreme and controversial Kula on a public forum where many readers are not as educated as you are. There could be numerous readers who will walk away from this thread thinking that they can buy uncertified foodsbecausee there is a legitimate Halachic authority that permits it. They will not even have the knowledge you do on what to look for in the ingredient panel, and without which you must acknowledge that they will certainly eat treif food.
Think carefully before you post something similar in the future.January 9, 2012 12:54 am at 12:54 am #846258
As I wrote: “Obviously, according to the view I am purporting, one must know what each ingredient is.”January 9, 2012 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #846259
Additionally, for the 99.9% who are not Talmidim of your Rav, even knowing what to look for would be absolutely forbidden.
I personally find it very challenging to answer Shailos and deliver Shiurim in Yiddish and Ivrit (both Ashkenazi and Sefardi pronunciations). Neither are my native language, and the risks of misunderstandings are multiplied. I am careful to take precautions to avoid errors.January 9, 2012 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #846260
I want to buy a cast iron pan, but they come “pre-seasoned” with oil. (They coat the pan with ostensibly soybean oil, and bake it).
So, even according to Rabbi Abadi, there could potentially be a problem, since there is no eidus that they are using vegetable oil, and there is no industry standard to use only vegetable oil, and it is not a food item so it is not subject to FDA regulation. (I can’t imagine he’d rely on tort liability for false or misleading advertising.)
So, my idea is to put it inside a pile of charcoal, and light the pile, and let it burn down. Seems to me like that would be libun gamur.January 9, 2012 11:34 pm at 11:34 pm #846261
pba: Once did something very similar when kashering a kitchen for somebody for the first time, except that his pans were already used with treif so we had to be m’laben the outside too.January 10, 2012 12:54 am at 12:54 am #846262
I accept your words. I will make a new disclaimer in my next post.January 10, 2012 1:09 am at 1:09 am #846263
First of all, nobody has the right to shop for leniencies. If (a) you learn the sugya and come out this way and are a person who is at the level of a ????? ????? ??????; or (b) you have a rav whom you follow lekula and lechumra and he paskens this way, only then would following such leniencies be sanctioned by halacha and common sense.
Second of all, and this is directed more to those in category (b); obviously you must be aware of the nature of each ingredient in order to go with the view I mentioned. Just because it is allowed doesn’t in any way give one the right to be nonchalant and negligent about it. So, either do some real research, or (preferred) ask someone who is an expert in this area to teach you what is what.
Finally, a word of advice: Be accommodating and use common sense. Don’t “trick” people into eating food you hold is kosher if they would never buy it. Besides for being wrong, it’s just plain stupid.January 10, 2012 1:40 am at 1:40 am #846264
yitay: Most people couldn’t eat in your house or from your keilim as a result of your stance on kashrus, as DaasYochid said about himself earlier in this thread, and as you acknowledged in the closing of your last post. Does that give you any reason for pause or concern?January 10, 2012 1:44 am at 1:44 am #846265kasherParticipant
If there’s just one thing I hope I’ve learned from working as a mashgiach for a large agency for over 20 years- Don’t talk about areas one knows nothing or very little about (which is often the case in the CR). Every slight change in a products size or package can mean a world of difference about the line or plant is was produced in. One can certainly not rely on just reading an ingredient statement. What are emulsifiers? Are we aware that 100% vegetable oil can be 100% non kosher? There is so much information to know and learn, which I continue to do after 20+ years.January 10, 2012 3:16 am at 3:16 am #846266
I would not serve you food that you wouldn’t eat. As for keilim, even according to the others who say my way is wrong, that should not automatically render them not kosher. Ask your rav. I personally know of someone who asked a shaila in such a situation (i.e. married into such a family) and the rav (very mainstream) said it was okay. Once we are just dealing with keilim there is a lot of wiggle room.January 10, 2012 3:41 am at 3:41 am #846267
yitay: Minimally you would need to inquire of your guests if they can eat off your keilim, even if the food being served at the time is otherwise up to their standards.January 10, 2012 3:54 am at 3:54 am #846268☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
What are you referring to that I said earlier?January 10, 2012 4:04 am at 4:04 am #846269☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
I just realized that I missed a post of yours from a few days ago:
DaasYochid: your and everyone else’s raaya rom whisket and beer is invalid because those were categorically paskened on by eminent rabbonim. its not that people stam paskened themselves that these items are categorically kosher…its that they were given a PSAK that these items are categorically kosher
There may have been rabbonim who were mattir many products in those days. I was not addressing the issue of following psak, I was speaking about the inherent kashrus.January 10, 2012 4:31 am at 4:31 am #846270
DaasYochid: I overread one of your comments. Please disregard/strike my reference to you. But otherwise the point of my comment remains.January 10, 2012 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #846271Prince CharmingMember
Cheftza, as I mentioned earlier, I’ve never had any issues with people eating at my house. I don’t serve them foods without a hechsher, and they have no problem with the keilim.
Truthfully, do you really know what goes on in other people’s kitchens? I believe there is a concept that it is permissible to eat in someone’s house if they are shomer shabbos (correct me if I’m wrong).January 10, 2012 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #846272YW Moderator-42Moderator
There is a concept of eid echad ne’eman bi’issurim, that is why we are allowed to eat anything that we haven’t made all the ingredients ourselves. When it comes to eating in other people’s houses this is what everyone relies on. But, if the person tells you themselves that they rely on certain kulos than you have to know what you personally hold regarding those kulos and how it affects their kailim regarding you. For this, you have to ask your own Rav.
When it comes to food items that are sold, most people nowadays are machmir not to rely on the seller as an “eid echad” because he is nogea b’davar, that is why we have mashgichim and hechsherim.
This is all regarding items where we know what they are, what the ingredients are, etc. But, most people nowadays don’t know (and usually have no way of knowing) what goes on in every step of the process with commercially available foods. For this reason, we need hechsherim. Even if you know the ingredients, you don’t know about the machines used to put the ingredients together, etc. so you need a hechsher. This is the mainstream view of Orthodox Jews. There is room to be maikil in certain cases but in places like NY/NJ where there is plenty of food available with hechsherim, most people do not rely on these kulos. Rabbi Abadi obviously holds differently.January 10, 2012 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #846273feivelParticipant
certainly these issues are beyond me
but i recall, when i was becoming frum and would eat only Milchigs in restaurants,
i used to go to a small shack type grill place (not Kosher, at all) near my office and order a grilled cheese sandwich.
i would watch as they would grill up some navaila burgers on this grill (a solid sheet of metal not a grate) then grill up my cheese sandwhich on the same grill. i didnt know this was a problem. they probably grilled some pork products on the same grill as well.
now if i had asked for and received a detailed and complete list of every ingredient in that cheese sandwich, would it have mentioned beef and pork juice and particles?January 10, 2012 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #846274
Nu? Nobody has anything to say about my cast iron pan?
Someone showed me an article by the CRC which said it needs hagalla, and you don’t need to wash it down before you do so.
A certain rav I asked, said it was a sfeik sfeika, and therefore I should do hagalla. He didn’t tell me what the second safeik is, nor why hagalla was necessary.
I still think it is easier to just do libun than to hock with hagalla.
Except that if I do libun, I will need to reseason it, while if I do hagalla, the seasoning will probably survive. The CRC did pasken that the issur is bliyus, and not mamashus- but should it feel weird that hagalla will make it muttar while I can clearly see that the oil is still present? So what if it feels weird, if that is the halacha- then that is the halacha.
hello? hello? hello? (99)January 10, 2012 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #846275
Anyone knowledgeable of halacha should not have a problem with my keilim.January 10, 2012 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #846276
PC: “I believe there is a concept that it is permissible to eat in someone’s house if they are shomer shabbos (correct me if I’m wrong)”
That would generally be true because there is a presumption of a Chezkas Kashrus. If I didn’t know that you eat food without a Hechsher, I would not suspect so and need not even ask. However, once I am aware that your standards are radically different than mine, I could no longer eat at your house. Your definition of the word “Kosher” is substantively at odds with mine.January 10, 2012 10:55 pm at 10:55 pm #846277susheeMember
Why not yitaynigwut? If your keilim were used with food products with no hechsheirum, and the vast majority of rabbonim are choishesh they may be treif, how can they eat from your keilum (utensils or serving bowls or food mixers used to prepare those products without hechsheirum)?January 10, 2012 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #846278
pba: I think you should ask your shaila again and be clearer, maybe show him the pan itself. If the seasoning is “there” then isn’t that a mamashus? I can ask the same rov who paskened about the pan I mentioned earlier if you like.January 10, 2012 11:21 pm at 11:21 pm #846279
sushe – ask your LORJanuary 10, 2012 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #846280
Itche: The basic metzius seems to be that the oil gets absorbed into the pores of the metal, and then burns into a sort of crust. Check out this article: http://www.crcweb.org/Sappirim/Sappirim%2022%20%28Jan%202012%29.pdfJanuary 10, 2012 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #846281
pba: why did you wake up now? what have you been doing for years with your aluminum foil etc? do you think it comes from the ground so nice and shiny, and only on one side? foil, stainless pots and pans etc, they’re all greased! do nothing!
the grease is likely petroleum based. and if not, likely vege. it is Nifsal me’achilas kelev and eino ben yomo. it is also applied at a higher temperature than libun chamur, i am told by a frum yid in the steel business and a mashgiach kashrus.
don’t worry, just toivel the pan and use it in good healthJanuary 10, 2012 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #846282susheeMember
My LOR says I would need to first kasher those keilim before I could eat from them, yitaynigwut.January 10, 2012 11:48 pm at 11:48 pm #846283
hello99: It is put on at 400 degrees. And it is always food grade oil. I think this is different from the aluminum foil pans- people in the food forums talk about which pig fat or olive oil, or butter, they personally use.
The company I bought claims to use a vegetable oil, and sometime in the past, even advertised that it was OU certified oil- but that is no longer the case.
Here are seasoning instructions: http://www.lodgemfg.com/use-care-seasoned-cast-iron.asp#3
And here are the FAQs: http://www.lodgemfg.com/use-care-help.asp#5January 10, 2012 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #846284lesschumrasParticipant
You are entirely correct that people should not react based upon kulos they see here. That also goes for chumrasJanuary 11, 2012 12:06 am at 12:06 am #846285
pba: In which case it is a mamashus? amiright?January 11, 2012 12:11 am at 12:11 am #846286January 11, 2012 12:13 am at 12:13 am #846287
Itche: That is part of the question. That CRC article I linked holds it is only bliyus.January 11, 2012 12:13 am at 12:13 am #846288January 11, 2012 12:17 am at 12:17 am #846289
sushe – you asked him?January 11, 2012 12:18 am at 12:18 am #846290
hello: The seasoning process on cast iron is a different process. The purpose is to create a crust of carbonized oil, making it not rust, and non-stick. It is not part of the manufacturing process.
See this: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/770275January 12, 2012 6:50 am at 6:50 am #846292
pba: you’re correct. If there is significant risk of edible, non-kosher oils being used, Libun Chamur would be required. Hagola would NOT be sufficient. your coals might not be enough if the heat doesn’t penetrate to the outside, you’d have to check the metzius.January 12, 2012 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #846293
So what I’m planning to do, is put the pan in the middle of a pile of coals.January 12, 2012 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #846294BTGuyParticipant
I decided to get on this line before it gets too long.
: )January 12, 2012 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #846295
IDK where you plan on doing this, but a word of advice if you don’t want to be switched to ‘majorly retarded’ — use a deep metal bucket.January 12, 2012 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #846296
IDK where you plan on doing this
In the dorm.
use a deep metal bucket.
I was actually planning to use an old broken charcoal BBQ that I found in my backyard from a previous tenant. I already did the same thing for my new grates when I moved. http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/i-moved
I hope UPS is not going to be jerks, and will deliver it even though I am not home. I should have ordered the charcoal from amazon also. Lemme see if they sell.
edit: I checked; the cheapest bag of charcoal sold by amazon was like 21 buck. I think I’ll just go to Canadian Tire.January 14, 2012 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #846297
simpler to run it through the self-clean cycle in an ovenJanuary 15, 2012 3:38 am at 3:38 am #846298
Not if you don’t have a self clean oven.
Besides, does it look like I’m trying to do things easily, or trying to have fun? Why do you think I bought the blazing thing to begin with?January 15, 2012 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #846299
If the thing was blazing you wouldn’t need libun.
Ok, that was corny enough for me to go ahead and become a rosh yeshiva.January 15, 2012 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #846300
1- In that case watch out for the wind. When I did it I used a bucket and probably way too much charcoal.
2- You can also do a mitzva with this project while you’re at it. We can hold an idol burning with the fire from the charcoal.January 15, 2012 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #846301
1. I’m going to put it in a barbecue, and cover it.
2. I can’t do that. Because then I will be ???? from the avoda zara since it will help kasher my pot.January 15, 2012 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #846302
No it won’t. The pot would have gotten kashered anyway without the the a”z. (You know the list of places this svara works better than I do)
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