September 4, 2017 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #1354470
What should be done when inappropriate intermingling occurs at a Chasuna? Such as people on the wrong side of the mechitza (men by the women dancing, women in the men’s section), many women entering the men’s side by keitzad, etc. (Or, worse, the Kallah dancing in front of men.)
Should an announcement be made on the microphone instructing everyone to immediately return to their side of the mechitza?September 4, 2017 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #1354516
Of course not Joseph.
Instead, women should attend weddings wearing plastic shopping bags over their heads. (-the ones you get your groceries in, after you remove the groceries)
This will solve a host of problems.
First of all, the high cost of sheitels (IMHO the sheitel crisis doesn’t get enough attention) as it will now be unnecessary to buy nice ones.
Second, women will not go into the men by keitzad as they won’t be able to see anything anyway.
Third, nosy ladies (and the occasional man who for sure shouldn’t be doing this) won’t be able to ask, “who’s the blonde girl in the blue floral gown? she looks just right for my Shmerel” as nosy ladies won’t see the kalla maidel and will have no idea she’s blonde.
Fourth, people like the OP will enjoy weddings much more and being b’simcha will enhance their ability to be misameizch Chassan v’Kallah.
We will also have a fine environmentally friendly answer for the people who want to enact a plastic shopping bag ban.
A great idea all around, if I may say so myself.
Let’s see how many signatures we can get on the Kol Korei.September 4, 2017 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #1354519
Men dancing in front of women is not a problem. Women dancing in front of men is. Usually during Keitzad Merakdim the men dance and the woman watch.
Same thing at the mitzvah tantz.September 4, 2017 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #1354522
The first and easiest thing to do would be the have the same good food by the men as by the ladies.
That’s would do it for me.
There’s a whole spread by the ladies and some loser herring and beef stew.
What were you thinking.September 4, 2017 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #1354547
Golfer, that raises the issue of tznius in medical situations.September 4, 2017 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #1354548
iac: The women, dressed to kill (who are we kidding? That is widespread at simchas), lingering on the men’s side of the mechitza is a problem in itself.
And that’s before getting to the problem of men going into the women’s side during dancing. The women all need to immediately stop dancing anytime a man walks in.
Regarding the Mitzvah Tantz, that’s if it truly is a Mitzvah Tantz. Some of the things going on nowadays under the guise of being a MT is anything but a MT. No one other than her father and Choson may touch her. And even with the father and Choson she can only do slow steps, not dance like in a bar.September 4, 2017 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #1354549
For a change, Joe has a good point….The vaad in each community should organize and recruit a special group of Chassanah Cops (modeled after the Iranian Revolution Guards) who would enforce the halachos of tzinius,ervah, nidah etc. and take all necessary steps to assure none of the pritzus Joe describes would ever happen. They would operate under the supervision of the Rav Hamachshir for that simcha hall and if all else fails, announce that they will cancel the Viennase Table and Deserts undless everyone immediately moves back to their side of the mechitza.September 4, 2017 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #1354550
Just rent 2 different halls like the chassidimSeptember 4, 2017 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #1354551
golfer, when’d you become a leitz?September 4, 2017 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #1354561
Actually, all this could be solved by simply not having any women, including the Kallah, at the Chassunah. There is no reason for any of them to be there.
All you need to do is have a shliach accept the kiddushin for the bride. Have the chassunah and then, later on that night, after everyone has left, have the bride delivered to the chassan’s residence in the presence of two witnesses and watch them close the door. All done. True, you will not be able to recite sheva b’rachos after the seuda, but that’s not essential for the wedding to be valid. The marriage is 100% valid even if the couple never has a Sheva B’rachos.
So, let’s just ban all women (including brides) from weddings. That will solve all of Joseph’s problems.
The WolfSeptember 4, 2017 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #1354563
I have never attended a chasunah where the women rec’d a different meal than the men. We travel in different circles.
I just made a chasunah the Sunday after Tisha B’Av and the menu was the same for all adult guests with the exception of my 2 adult nieces and a great niece who are vegetarian.
I would be very unhappy if while driving home from a chasunah my wife described the lavish meal she was served and I had only rec’d beef stew.
I constantly post that people should make a simcha according to their means. If they can only afford to serve everyone Beef Stew, then serve everyone beef stew. A host cannot create classes of people and serve inferior meals to some at an affair.September 5, 2017 12:43 am at 12:43 am #1354650
CTL: I think BaalBoose is referring to the “Kabolos Panim” part of the chasunah where the food by the chosson’s tish is usually not as lavish as by the kallah.
joseph: As happened at my daughter’s chasunah, a woman was on the men’s side dancing “inappropriately” and I just walked over to her and told her to please go back to the women’s side.September 5, 2017 8:00 am at 8:00 am #1354674
I must really travel in separate circles. In my 60+ years I’ve never seen anything served at the chasson’s tisch beyond cakes and ‘finger food’ type hors d’oeuvres, never something such as beef stew., fresh fruit and drinks.
As I said we made 2 chasunahs in the past 16 moths and the food at the tisch and the food at the kallah’s reception was exactly the same: cakes. fresh fruit platters, hors d’oeuvres both hot and cold and drinks. Nothing that required a utensil bigger than a cake fork and could be eaten on a 5″ plate.
This food is not a meal.
Caveat: we have never invited people just for kabbalos panim and Chupah, a guest is invited for the entire simcha. We also never have suffered univited guests/crashers….that’s part of living OOT (the ganz olim doesn’t just show up because they heard there’s a simcha and on the pretext of wishing a mazel tov they expect to eat and drink).September 5, 2017 8:56 am at 8:56 am #1354682
Joseph: perhaps if there was more mingling at weddings, the shidduch crisis wouldn’t be as bad. R’ Breuer zt”l wrote in a letter that he encouraged mixed seating especially for younger people, as mitzvah goreres mitzvah, and shidduchim could come about at a wedding.
As for your point about a man walking into the women’s section – you are wrong, the women don’t need to stop dancing. The man has an obligation not to be there, and he should leave. It’s on him, not on the women.September 5, 2017 8:56 am at 8:56 am #1354683
CTL, I haven’t heard of any registerable instances of wedding crashers in-town, either.September 5, 2017 9:59 am at 9:59 am #1354751
Do you have a source for R’ Breuer’s writing?September 5, 2017 10:55 am at 10:55 am #1354891
Yitzchokm, I haven’t seen the actual letter from him, but I’ve seen/heard it quoted by many different Rabbonim. If you do some research on your own, you’ll find it.September 5, 2017 11:06 am at 11:06 am #1354874
Da’Moshe had an excellent point regarding the underlying assumption of this thread that any comingling of the genders at chassanahs will lead pritzus, raise issues of tzinius and giluye arroyos etc. He notes that
Rav Yosef Breuer, ztz”l (and some other chashuve rabbonim not all of whom were Yekeshe) strongly opposed to the practice of separate seating at chassanahs. He correctly noted this was a relatively new Americaneshe minhag and was not the practice in the alte heim where perhaps except for certain chassideshe courts mixed seating had been the general practice in Eastern Europe. The Yekkishe practice. was to have four married couples to a circular table (withno man sat next to another’s wife and with singles deliberately mixed so that young men and women could socialize with each other.
Given that the fundamental biological, hormonal and yetzer harah DNA cannot have changed so quickly, If it was good enough for the Alte Heim, why is it not good enough for chashuve askanim like Joe??September 5, 2017 11:13 am at 11:13 am #1354901
Yekkishe practice. was to have four married couples to a circular table (withno man sat next to another’s wife and with singles deliberately mixed so that young men and women could socialize with each other.
Source?September 5, 2017 11:47 am at 11:47 am #1354929
The story is told about Rav Apron Soloveichik Z’tl, who responded to a shaylah from either his gabbai (or some talmidim) who said he/they had gone to a friend’s wedding and was surprised that there was mixed seating for the singles attending and what should he/they do in the future when those circumstances arose.. According to the telling of this story, the Rav sighed, and said something along the lines of, “Oy vey – how do you think I met Ella?” I’ve heard numerous variations of similar stories attributed to various rabbonim who were both makil and machmir on this issue with the R’ Breuer/Yekeshe practice at one end of the spectrum and the more mainstream Chassidus at the other end….September 5, 2017 12:35 pm at 12:35 pm #1354973
There was mixed seating at the weddings of the children of R’ Moshe Feinstein. He was plenty frum.September 5, 2017 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #1355028
Snagged: Were you there?September 5, 2017 1:07 pm at 1:07 pm #1355031
Rav Moshe did not have mixed seating except at the Tendler wedding, which was at the groom’s choice, not Rav Moshe’s.September 5, 2017 1:07 pm at 1:07 pm #1355032
R AS isn’t Rav Breuer, although neither of those ascribe to the haskafa in either Skype my grandparents had.
The question isn’t if this occurred, the question is, is this something to aspire to do. Would Rav Moshe continue this practice in the 80s? After Woodstock?
I think this would be a good question to ask RD or RF, as his children, to explain their father’s thinking. If anyone on this fourm it’s close to them, I think this would be a worthwhile question.
Regardless, our own Rabbi today are very against this practice. This entire conversation is important as intellectual exercise, not for actual practice.September 5, 2017 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #1355034
CTL: It depends on the wedding halls. At some of the halls in Brooklyn (e.g. Ateres Chynka, Tiferes Mordechai, Tiferes Rivka, Eden Palace) usually have 3 or 4 hot dishes by the chosson’s tish; sometimes it is the same quality as the dishes by the Kallah’s Kabolos Panim, sometimes not. I can’t compare to Monsey or Lakewood chasunahs as I usually get there late, hopefully in time for the chupa.September 5, 2017 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #1354963
I’m sure the atmosphere at Yekkishe weddings was a lot more restrained than what is commonplace at our Simchos. I’m sure they must have had a mechitza for the dancing. Rav Breuer is not around now to see our current weddings, we don’t know what he would say now. We have to rely on the Rabonim of our generation and I haven’t seen anyone quoting them in favor of mixed seating for singles or couples. Unfortunately many married women dress more provocatively than the singles; long and or attractive wigs, high heels, tightly fitted/short/striking clothing. These halachos restricting kalus rosh etc. between genders are clearly spelled out in Shulchan Aruch Even Haezer and are not modern day chumros.September 5, 2017 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #1355088
Joseph….are you insinuating that Rav Tendler, shlita, was somehow not aware of your chumrah or simply felt in a yekeshe mood the day of his chassanah?? I doubt either he or R’ Moshe, ZTL, would have not been aware of what halacha requiredSeptember 5, 2017 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #1355109
DaMoshe hit the nail exactly on the head.
this is a unique Concept in this last generationonly… The idea of making sure that young men and women never, ever meet. In my parents generation, Orthodox, yes, Orthodox synagogues had a single dances so that couple’s might meet, Mary and build Jewish homes. In this generation, we are doing everything possible to prevent Jewish homes from ever being built.I understand that allowing men and women to meet might, heaven forbid, lead to something like men and women talking to each other…which might lead to mixed marriage lo aleinu! all that the extreme separation has done is helped perpetuate the shudduch crisis.
So what should you do? Make an announcement that asks MORE single young men and women to cross the mechitza.September 5, 2017 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #1355401
Those shuls were the Young Israel shuls. Rabbi Yaakov Yosef Herman zatzal’s EXTREMELY vocal opposition to those dances is recorded in All For the Boss by his daughter, Rebbetzin Ruchama Shain a”h. There is a very, very big difference between mixed dancing (100% assur) and mixed seating specifically for shidduch purposes.September 5, 2017 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #1355395
The odd thing the more liberal posters above will find is that the shidduch crisis is less severe and couples get married younger in communities that have stricter separation of the genders than in communities that are less strict about separating the genders.September 5, 2017 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #1355415
They also have higher rates of hearing loss.September 5, 2017 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #1355479
quietmedic: R’ Moshe was very much against those dances as was R’ Elchonon when he visited America in 1938.September 5, 2017 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #1356039
An interesting point, but i think that “shidduch crisis being less severe (if that is, in fact, true, but let’s say it is) and couples getting married younger in communities that have stricter separation of the genders” is correlational, not at all causational…i.e., stricter separation of the genders does not lead to more marriage and younger marriage. That is a function of the communal standard more so than anything else. And of course i’m not claiming that a tall mechitza at a wedding 100% prevents two people from talking (although the OP apparently would like it to), but it’s more representative of the attitude…ceiling high-mechitzot, and, for that matter, long sleeves, are not things that even the most religious Jews ever did in Europe. It’s a post-war invention, as the world in general and the Jewish community in particular, shifts waaaay to the right, and are just…excessive, and not halachik. Heck, a mechitzah in shul only has to be 40 t’fachim, but today we have floor to ceiling cages with either zero visibility or one-way glass. It’s just not the way things were.September 5, 2017 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #1356095
There are no mechitzos in the grocery stores with tight isles; @ pta in the schools; in doctor’s offices. why all the fussSeptember 5, 2017 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #1356114
People don’t go to the grocery or doctor dressed to the hilt.September 5, 2017 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #1356131
It used to be that woman were much more covered and tznius.
Also (single) men didn’t go out with giant “bloris”s in the good old days.September 6, 2017 12:05 am at 12:05 am #1356178
what does bloris have to do with thisSeptember 6, 2017 12:06 am at 12:06 am #1356166
The shopping bag idea is fantastic! And may work perfectly at chasunas, just so long as there is modesty and uniformity amongst and between the bags.
Nowadays, shopping bags vary. They may have store names printed in red. Or be made of bright colors. So one must ensure that the shopping bags, alone, are tznius before women place them on their heads.
Golfer A+++++++++++++++ 🙂September 6, 2017 2:13 am at 2:13 am #1356256
Who or what is “Bloris”???September 6, 2017 6:56 am at 6:56 am #1356260
Sheino Yodeia Lishol: “There are no mechitzos in the grocery stores with tight isles; @ pta in the schools; in doctor’s offices. why all the fuss ”
there are in certain places- I have been to medical clinics in chasidish neighborhood that in addition to the regular seating, have a separate area that men can sit with a curtain around the area. And there are grocery stores with separate hours for men and women- (I have yet to see an island, tight or not, in a grocery store- but they do have aisles). And I am sure that in the chasidishe school system, Tatties go to meet the boys’ Rebbes, and the Mommies, to the girls’ teachers.September 6, 2017 10:29 am at 10:29 am #1356403
SYL: Do you visit groceries and doctor’s offices where the women are dancing?September 10, 2017 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #1359954
Warrior only the rebbish do thatSeptember 11, 2017 10:59 am at 10:59 am #1360437
Joseph its not correct to say that we dress to kill. Although we are at times very not tznius. we do it for our own attention not to kill others. Its a very hard challenge that you will never understandSeptember 11, 2017 11:48 am at 11:48 am #1360458
y do u need the attentionSeptember 11, 2017 12:05 pm at 12:05 pm #1360481
If you don’t dress to kill then how are you going to kill? If you don’t kill, you won’t have meat.September 11, 2017 12:24 pm at 12:24 pm #1360482
Thats our nature something men will never understand just as we girls don’t understand the guard your eyes issues. To us its that simple if the Torah prohibits you to look at us when we are very not tznius just don’t look. Its that simple how hard can it beSeptember 11, 2017 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #1361266
I’m a girl, and I understand why men have a hard time not noticing women who are dressed or acting untzniusly, and I have a much harder time understanding why women have a hard time not dressing untzniusly.
It is far easier to not buy a short skirt than it is to not see someone who is wearing one.
Even as a girl (who doesn’t have a yetzer hara to davka look), I would find it much easier to not buy the skirt than to not see someone wearing it!September 11, 2017 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #1361269
“To us its that simple if the Torah prohibits you to look at us when we are very not tznius just don’t look. Its that simple how hard can it be”
Huh? Have you ever tried to not look at something? Let alone a lot of somebodies.September 11, 2017 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #1361289
It is far easier to not buy a short skirt than it is to not see someone who is wearing one. What are you talking about?
I have to go out of my way to buy the correct length skirt a mini skirt is available all over tightclothing is so much more comfortable.
Im saying that just as men are challenged so are we. And when we dress very not tznius its not to kill it’s just giving in to our yetzer hara that’s very difficult to over comr in this generation. The joy and fun of being very not tznius is very overwhelming for us
Bottom line we aren’t here to killSeptember 11, 2017 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #1361312
Modesty – it sounds like you’re very self aware and sincere in your desire to change. Hashem leads us in the way we want to go.
Could you elaborate on what you said above about girls wanting to dress not tzniusly for themselves not others. Does this mean if a girl is home for the day and not going out sue will want to dress up and put on makeup and walk around the house in high heels? Id think she’s putting all this time effort and discomfort to attract attention from others. Now what kind of attention does one get by wearing tight short clothes that accentuate her figure? I think I understand that it’s about the feeling I get when I get attention. And my intention isn’t to caused others to do aveiros. But it’s the inconvenient reality that it does place a stumbling block before others by making them want to look and encouraging others to dress in the same way.
Also can’t a man claim the same thing? It’s not that I want her to do any aveiros it’s just that I like looking? But it’s assur so you can’t. Just as it’s assure to dress that way.
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