Inspiring safe & legal Porch minyanim all over Lakewood
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- This topic has 84 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 1 month ago by yehudayona.
April 26, 2020 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #1853388
js -“so now instead of having one rav ud prefer to count up all the poskim u know of and go with the majority…?… i lost you”
Stop trying to turn things around.
I’ll start at the beginning, R’ Miller – Toronto (top of one of Lakewood’s Bais Din) wrote with regards to Porch Minyunim, if it’s Ok with the Gov. & the Doctors, then it’s Halachally Ok.
See his letter on the Lakewood Scoop.
I, as a Medical Professional, say it’s NOT Ok.
Do you know of any Medical Professional that argues with Me?April 26, 2020 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #1853511
I Looked up the letter. R’ Miller, does not endorse these minyaim at all. He says they are only allowed from a medical standpoint if certain criteria are met. Additionally, from the perspective of halachah it is problematic. He writes that it should only be done for mincha with a short chazzoras hashatz.April 26, 2020 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #1853463
If the poskim or gedolim disagree with the doctors, the gedolim/poskim prevail and we absolutely follow our Rabbonim rather than our doctors.
Obviously the gedolim/rabbonim should be made aware of the doctor’s opinion before he issues a final psak that we must follow.April 26, 2020 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #1853525
The point is that we decide what to ask. Health decides whom to ask. it is not much different. If we would be more learned, maybe we could actually discuss the topics under conversation. instead of always ending with question of who was the right person to follow.April 26, 2020 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #1853548
Maybe You could answer me. Who are the Rabbonim of the porches? Outside of a few smalll communities, there are not many Rabbonim that tell their congregation how to daven in their own homes.April 26, 2020 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #1853546
Medical authority is not only in the doctor’s office. Whatever the requirement is to go to the doctor, it is same regarding following the doctor’s advice at home. What does our Rabbonim mean? There are more comments trying to explain it, than anything else.April 26, 2020 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #1853629
Joe -“If the poskim or gedolim disagree with the doctors, the gedolim/poskim prevail and we absolutely follow our Rabbonim rather than our doctors.”
Who are you trying to Manipulate?!?
You have been coming to YWN for years, but have you any success in changing anybody’s mind?
Btw, I’d call you an Apikorus, but you’re Not that Smart!
So Mr. Am Haaretz, if you actually READ R’ Miller’s letter, he wrote Porch Minyunim are only Ok if both the Gov. & Doctors say it’s Ok.April 26, 2020 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #1853644
MR. Unhealthy, The Lakewood minyanim have both the Government and Rabbonim approval, someone from outside that area opinions are irrelevant,
PS there are bunkers in a island off the coast of New Zeeland where there is no chance of catching covid 19 if you are interestedApril 26, 2020 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #1853655
Joseph, on Yom Kippur we follow doctors and individuals whether one needs to eat.April 26, 2020 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #1853667
Reb Eliezer, if your doctor told you to eat on that Yom Kippur but the Mattersdorfer Rov zt’l, after hearing what your doctor told you and everything behind it, told you to fast on that Yom Kippur, would you comply with your doctor or would you comply with your Rosh Yeshiva?April 26, 2020 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #1853671
NoSaychel -“The Lakewood minyanim have both the Government and Rabbonim approval, someone from outside that area opinions are irrelevant,”
Joe, I thought YWN doesn’t let you have multiple SN’s!
But please stop LYING!
R’ Miller, wrote in his letter about Porch Minyunim, that you need Both Gov. & Medical approval, Not just Gov. approval.
I don’t APPROVE, and I don’t know any medical professional that disagrees with Me!
Instead of posting your Absurd ways of thinking, why Not take a Hebrew language course, so you can understand R’ Miller’s letter?!?April 27, 2020 2:52 am at 2:52 am #1853769
What?!? Assuming that the doctor explains that it could be fatal, why am I asking a Rov? Of course, I would eat on Yom Kippur! Those that died from fasting were incorrect.April 27, 2020 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #1854021
Reb Eliezer, I still eagerly await your response to my above question to you (as I asked it without modifying the circumstances in the question.)April 27, 2020 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #1854087
Joseph, the halacha is to listen to the individual over the rav. He might use the doctor’s advice to decide.April 27, 2020 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #1854099
Reb Eliezer, which “individual” are you referring to?
My question to you is if your doctor said to eat on Yom Kippur and then your Posek/Rov (let’s say the Mattersdorfer Rov, if that’s your Rosh Yeshiva) paskens, after hearing your doctor’s order including all the reasons behind it, that you are not permitted to eat on Yom Kippur. Would you follow your doctor’s orders or your conflicting Posek’s order?April 27, 2020 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #1854098
Joseph, see SA O’CH 618,1 we don’t isten to the rav but either to him against a hundred doctors or the doctor against him whioever is the most lenient.April 27, 2020 11:21 pm at 11:21 pm #1854108
Joseph, I don’t see the Posek mentiioned anywhere in halacha. When it comes to eating on Yom Kippur, the sick trumps everyone. We follow the majority of doctors provided he has no view.April 27, 2020 11:21 pm at 11:21 pm #1854113
Reb Eliezer, please advise specifically in the above described scenario whether you’d follow or disregard the Mattersdorfer’s (or your posek’s) order.April 28, 2020 7:37 am at 7:37 am #1854144
It seems like for the sick to eat on Yom Kippur, we are supposed to ask Joseph, if we should ask Reb Eliezer if we should follow the Mattersdorfer Rav Z”L.April 28, 2020 9:42 am at 9:42 am #1854252
Sorry, as high respect I had for the rebbi, I would follow my own needs with a torah observant doctor’s advice as described in SA above. If no doctor around, I would decide as II am the best doctor for myself. Maybe under other circumstances, I would eat less, less than the shiur within 7-9 minutes time span.April 28, 2020 10:03 am at 10:03 am #1854263
“If no doctor around, I would decide as II am the best doctor for myself.”
Wow, what a disappointing answer. I don’t know that you would have any obligation to follow the mattersdorfer rav if he is not your rav, but I never in a million years would expect you would ever make such a statement.April 28, 2020 10:03 am at 10:03 am #1854266
nomesorah – I don’t know who you are or what your story is except that you are a teen, which is very obvious. I just find your postings to be very sad. You sound like you have little regard for Rabbeim and Daas Torah and don’t seem to have an understanding or respect for the concept that we aren’t all about ourselves. Is this a product of your environment or have you had some very poor role modeling, I have no idea. But I do hope you will take the time to find someone who has the time and the love to give you a more honest perspective of what Torah wants from us — separate from what you may have picked up and absorbed on your ownApril 28, 2020 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #1854375
The SA 618 does not mention anything about a posek. My Rebbi the Matersdorfer Rav ztz’ would never rule against a religiuous observant doctor. I understand the gravity of eating of Yom Kippur but it is an issur gavre and not an issur cheftza. Therefore, the Torah put the responsibility to decide on the sick as specified in SA O’CH 618,1. If the sick says he must eat, hundred doctors will not trump his needs.April 28, 2020 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #1854390
Reb Eliezer, I said specifically not to modify the scenario described. If your Rov paskened, with all the information on hand from the doctor, that you must fast, would you disregard him?April 28, 2020 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #1854554
Thank you for concern. I really mean it. I will not demean any Rov, even if someone says he is not worthy of being called a Rov. But respect for the Rov, does not include following everything, or even anything he says. I was taught to respect every person, should I follow them all? People think that they need to vouch for their Rav. “He is great, we must follow him.” The opposite seems truer. The Rav needs to vouch for his followers. “You can trust that one. He knows what I say. And he won’t misrepresent me.”April 29, 2020 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #1854961
Today’s NY COVID-19 deaths total 330. NJ reported 328. While all death counts are probably lower than the true number, I believe NY includes probable COVID deaths and NJ doesn’t (please correct me if I’m wrong). NY has more than twice the population of NJ.April 30, 2020 8:13 am at 8:13 am #1855177
Are you insinuating that the Torah wants us to follow a Rov, instead of looking out for ourselves? If so, please enlighten us. A lot of commenter had to back off their agenda, because they could not make that statement fit their case.April 30, 2020 9:20 am at 9:20 am #1855257
“Are you insinuating that the Torah wants us to follow a Rov, instead of looking out for ourselves? ”
I don’t know where you get a question like that. If such a choice exists then you haven’t found a rav Although that does give insight to your other comments…April 30, 2020 10:04 am at 10:04 am #1855270
@yehudayona, one of the big factors the drives Covid 19 is density, New York State has 62 counties [ including the 5 boros each being a separate county] on those counties 51 out of the 62 have a population density of less then 500 per mile whereas New Jersey has 21 counties and only 7 have density of less then 500 per mile.
That should answer your questionApril 30, 2020 10:05 am at 10:05 am #1855261
Not very complicated pirakay avos, payrick 1 Mishna 6 says it all, ‘asay lecha rav”, find your self a rav.
Hopefully one day you will find yours, I have ONE rav who is moreh derech for me and a dayan who paskens shailos, when the extended family had issues such as end of life, we asked a rav who is a mumcha in these issues.April 30, 2020 12:29 pm at 12:29 pm #1855331
Commonsaychel, I didn’t know I had a question. I thought I just stated some facts as best as I could. Clearly I put them in this topic (which I haven’t read) because it has to do with relaxing social distancing in NJ.
I wasn’t able to find time series of COVID-19 deaths by state (much less by county), but I think NJ is behind NY in reductions of deaths. Again, if anyone can find numbers that confirm or refute my surmise, I would be grateful.April 30, 2020 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #1855351
Your Surmise it wrong, New Jersey is one of the most densely populated states, density=spread that all there is to itApril 30, 2020 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1855496
You did not answer. If it is explained to someone that they could die if they fast on Yom Kippur and the Rov tellls them to fast anyways, the Torah forbids them from fasting. The Rambam does not writes to follow the Yad. And Maran did not say to follow the Shulchan Aruch. Rav Moshe z’l even told other Rabbonim, that they do not have to listen to him in regard to eiruvin.April 30, 2020 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1855500
Your source is discussing where the Rav is your equal. (Nothing about voiding your own ideas.) In those days, questions were brought to the beis medrash. There was no concept of asking a Rov, until roman persecutions closed our Holy Places.
Taking advice on life issues is definitely recommended, but not from online comments. Do not misunderstand me. I very much would not make decisions alone. The issue was who has the say on porch minyanim. It was brought up eating on Y”K if the Rov says not too. It is known that if there is no Doctor, we rely on the advice of the indivdual who is ill. it does not mention to ask the Rov. The Rov should say to feed the ill whatever they request.April 30, 2020 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #1855565
FYI, in today’s COVID-19 death count, NY is down from 330 to 306 and NJ is up from 328 to 458.
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