Inspiring safe & legal Porch minyanim all over Lakewood

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  • #1851117
    Haimy
    Participant

    After living a month without tefilah Betzibur the residents of Lakewood were pleasantly surprised to learn this past Friday that an acceptable “porch minyon” was OK’d by the authorities & endorsed by the BMG poskim.
    It was a refreshing experience to join my neighbors in heartfelt tefilah bezibur. Speaking to Hashem under the sky & thanking him for the Meoros Hashamayim never was so real. Each mispalel remains on their own front steps approximately, 40 feet away from his neighbors’ house, fulfilling all the requirements of social distancing.
    As we daven, we can hear from other blocks the united voices of Ehrlicher Yidden calling out in prayer leavinu shebashamayim, truly inspiring!
    This reminded me of the mishna in Rosh Hashanah, that on each mountain there would be groups waving torches to spread the word that the rosh chodesh had been proclaimed. We are transforming the streets & yards of the galus into botei knessios! Umulah Ha’aretz dea kimayim layom mechasim!
    The entire galus has turned into a medurah of aish as yidden join together in tefilah.
    May we be zoche to soon see the end of this Tzorah & once again daven in our shuls with the sifrei Torah.

    #1851185
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Your inspiration is pleasing to the ears! But referring to people staying 40 feet apart as botei knessios, seems to be the opposite of Umulah Ha’aretz dea. I would faster skip davening than be the shliach tzibbur at such an un-gathering.

    #1851284
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Porch minyanim have become the yiddeshe version of the right wing “rebellion” against opening up the bars and beaches. Perhaps if some of this energy were focused on assisting first responders and front-line health workers we might ALL be able to return to some semblance of normalcy sooner than later. Certain issues become the obsession of a small cadre of the tzibur determined to manifest the “freedom” and “liberty’. We all want to get back to normal, but some seem more willing to do so by walking over the bodies of the elderly and infirm whose lives are at some incremental risk by premature relaxation of the social distancing rules that have been shown to work.

    #1851378

    GH: I attended such a minyan on Yom Tov. I have no such agenda other then being able to hear kedusha, leining and duchening. If I can shop in Moisha’s and Shoprite with social distancing, i can also daven with social distancing.

    #1851381
    Haimy
    Participant

    I’d like to quote the words of an aino Yehudi as he posted his experience on Patch dot com.
    “Robert Margulski, Neighbor
    Lakewood, NJ
    |
    3h
    On Saturday, April 18th, not being Jewish, I attended a local service with about 10 other Jewish gentlemen. 10? Plus me? The local Rabbi had a table altar outside his home. Just him, 1. Some across the street, some down the block. ALL were 30 feet or more from each other. I sat on my porch and, with all the praying around me, it felt like I was in a House of God. The Peace of our Lord was all around me. It was beautiful.”
    If we follow the law & act safely than our porch minyonim are a Kiddush Hashem!

    #1851435
    yochy
    Participant

    Not inspired. Many others do not read the rules carefully and many others are not willing to be a mashgiach especially when it is their neighbors and people end up not following the rules sometimes not even realizing. That is why they said no minyanim at all. It is only because of those that refused to listen that they had to allow some with rules. If one person gets sick or c”v dies on your account ……………….

    #1851450
    Health
    Participant

    Haimy -“Each mispalel remains on their own front steps approximately, 40 feet away from his neighbors’ house, fulfilling all the requirements of social distancing”

    Stop Dreaming! Most porches in Lakewood aren’t 40 feet away. Some are like 8-10 feet away.
    This can spread disease.
    Ya’know a lot of places are not allowing any Minyanim, eg. Passaic!

    #1851553

    My LOR told me he didn’t understand the reasoning behind two psak din he heard from the Lakewood Poskim. The first was not burning chometz even in the privacy of your backyard and told me to burn the 10 pieces as he was doing and the psak of the banning of minyanim even with proper social distancing. He himself has been davening with a backyard minyan with proper diastancing.

    #1851587
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Health, the CDC guidelines , are 6 feet, standing at the same distance as they do at Walmart, Target Etc.
    Perkay avos says ahsay lecho rav, therefore people in Passaic should listen to the Passaic psak and people kin Lakewood should listen to Lakewood, and the 5 people who listen to Rabbi Yaakov Horowitz should listen to him.

    #1851607
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear lower and his venerated LOR,
    Your opinion is a bit puzzling to me. What does it mean to daven together with social distancing? How does your neighbor davening on his porch, designate your porch as a makom m’yuchad l’tefillah? Do you state first that your porches should not have kedushas beis hakenesses? If your porch or yard is not designated for davening, it would be better to daven in a specific corner of your home, like our mothers have done – and still do- for centuries.
    What is a verbal kedushah worth, when we cannot interact with each other. What is laining besides for studying Torah together? Birchas kohanim is a result of a completion of our service to Hashem. It exists as a reminder that our shuls and yeshivos are our mikdash me’at. Sadly, there is no resemblance with what we have now. Minyan is not a personal whim. It is meant to serve the public.
    I do think it is appropriate that those that can, should daven kabbolos shabbos, hallel, etc, outside for the inspiration of others, such as Haimy. May His Presence be returned To His Designated city.
    P. S. I think burning chometz was about that those in Lakewood are not Boy Scouts.

    #1851628
    Health
    Participant

    NoSaychel -“Health, the CDC guidelines , are 6 feet, standing at the same distance as they do at Walmart, Target Etc”

    They also sell Pork. Do you do everything the Gov. allows?!?

    I believe the WHO & the CDC are Wrong!
    From USA Today:
    “The novel coronavirus has prompted social distancing measures around the world. One researcher believes what’s being done isn’t enough.
    Lydia Bourouiba, an associate professor at MIT, has researched the dynamics of exhalations (coughs and sneezes, for instance) for years at The Fluid Dynamics of Disease Transmission Laboratory and found exhalations cause gaseous clouds that can travel up to 27 feet.
    Her research could have implications for the global COVID-19 pandemic, though measures called for by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the World Health Organization call for six and three feet of space, respectively.”

    #1851632
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Our gadolim, rabbonim and askanim are dropping lies flies and you guys are still debating the intricacies of “porch minyanim” ??? Hashem yarachem.

    #1851658
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    No Health, I know you know better when anyone who works for the CDC, what are your credentials?

    #1851659
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Health & Gadol; we are discussing the safety question. The topic is inspiration. Which I think is wonderful. I question why it is being promoted as representing the concept of tefilla b’tzibbur. We could daven outside without a minyan. Whatever we do, it should be with utmost care for everyone’s health.

    #1851650

    GH: So when groups of men make minyanim at achasunah it is wothless since we do not designate the chasunah hall with kedushas beis haknesses? PrsonallyI will follow the rosh yeahiva swho davens with us.

    #1851693
    Mammele
    Participant

    Someone below 50 with elevated blood pressure numbers partly influenced by COVID-19 stress discussed with me whether to attend a “porch minyan” this past Shabbos. My opinion was that if he thinks it’ll relax him he should go ahead. I don’t know if it was perfectly safe for everyone (he specifically is B”H cured of the virus – and I do know immunity is not yet certain) once we calculate wind and exaggerated distances needed for separation, but I still believe it was the right call.

    GH: We’re not necessarily rebelling, but it’s extremely difficult for many to not Daven with minyan, listen to Rosh Chodesh bentching, Hallelel this week etc. Everyone has their own needs. Don’t belittle human feelings, even when halacha doesn’t mandate tefilla betzibur.

    Additionally, my educated guess is that over 80% of the Heimishe community in Brooklyn has already been infected. We’re way over the curve here, and once numbers are proven MOST of us will be released from lock-downs, even where infection rates are a lot lower.

    For the high risk population I don’t know what the answer is, Moshiach should come speedily.

    #1851682
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    lower – There is a difference between joining the tzibbur, and just having a minyan. Going to the cemetery or making a siyum does not qualify as a tzibbur. The same for a wedding. A minyan is not worthless. We can still have chazzoras hashatz without a tzibbur. The reasons you gave seem out of sorts with what is going on. I would venture that the Rosh Yeshiva – like Haimy – finds it inspiring to daven outside with his neighbors. May we all be inspired to pour our tefillos into our souls.

    #1851843
    Health
    Participant

    NoSaychel -“No Health, I know you know better when anyone who works for the CDC, what are your credentials?”

    I simply don’t have to give you my credentials, unless you are going to pay me.
    But I did post an opinion from Lydia Bourouiba, an associate professor at MIT, who, IMHO, knows more than anyone from the CDC!

    #1851937
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Health or no health, we are trying to decipher what is inspirational tefillah without halchic prayer, in the context of a minyan that is possibly equivalent to davening beyichidus. It is implicit in the mishna that one may not pray where there may be any danger. There is no need for a reminder. And it should not be seen as a rebellion, because they are not pushing for an ease of restrictions. Haimy sounds like he is more inspired davening outside, than in shul. May all his bakashos be answered.

    #1851974
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Unhealthy To cut and paste what someone said does not make it factual, the CDC and NIOSH rules are the guidelines used the USA and have been since 1946, you don’t like that then move to another country

    #1852053
    Health
    Participant

    Nosaychel -“the CDC and NIOSH rules are the guidelines used the USA and have been since 1946, you don’t like that then move to another country.”

    They might be the rules; So what?
    I assume that you’re an Orthodox Jew because you post on this site.
    Did you move to another country when they legalized Gay marriage?!?

    #1852239
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Unhealthy, here is the main difference that I as a frum happily married hetrosexal man am not affected in any way by gay marriage, frankly I don’t care who my plumber, banker, clerk spends his off hours with.
    on the other hand the NIOSH and CDC are codified in CFR, therefore if you have a disagreement with CDC the opinions are irrelevant unless you move to a new country and follow that country rules.

    #1852305
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear common,
    Your take is to follow the Rabbonim and the CDC, but not the Supreme Court. Should one take advice from online comments?

    #1852319
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    nOmesorah, I take the rulings of US Supreme Court seriously, I never discriminated when I am in the workplace regardless of that persons orientation,
    In reference to your question, no you should not advice of online comments, its opinion for the most part.

    #1852355
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Do not discuss porch minyanim when people are dying left and right in Lakewood.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by Reb Eliezer.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by Reb Eliezer.
    #1852328
    Health
    Participant

    NoSaychel – “you have a disagreement with CDC the opinions are irrelevant unless you move to a new country and follow that country rules.”

    So what you’re saying is – When you like the Gov. rules because it suits you, then you can stay in this country. When s/o doesn’t like them – you must leave.
    Maybe think before you post?!?
    I don’t have to Daven with a Minyun because the Gov. says it safe.
    I don’t trust the Gov.’s opinion like I wouldn’t trust YOURS!

    #1852410
    justsaying001
    Participant

    just bc its possible to reach twenty seven feet doesnt mean every time a person breathes it will go that far, it could be a very small chance, perhaps only if its a cough or a sneeze. these slight chances may not be enough to qualify for safek pekuach nefesh, as not every tiny chance that something could lead to death is a shayla of safek pekuach nefesh. obviously a rav must dan this shayla.

    #1852419
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer: Umein.

    #1852427
    benjyC
    Participant

    I do not believe any Rav or Doctors that signed onto the Lakewood Minyin from BMG I am sure they had crazy pressure and perhaps even threatened if withholding their signatures. Look how many BIG Rabbaim are davening at home. I think Hahsem will look at these Tefillos with a slight look. May we all be safe and healthy

    #1852563
    justsaying001
    Participant

    benjyc, im not sure if you r aware of the actual facts, if anything there was a lot of pressure to sign the original letter. i dont know if u realize but to ban all porch minyanim is not a shayla in safek pikuach nefesh its a shayla in when to make a gzeira of lo plug. this takes an understanding of human and public behavior in the situation, and a vision of what can cause what, and probably other considerations considering how to manage a klal. this is not a health shayla. the presumtion before the shayla even starts is that no one will do anything that has a din of even safek pikuach nefashos. that takes a consultation with doctors. but doctors should not be weighing in on when to make a lo plug any more than anyone else. thats not their specialty.

    #1852655
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Common,
    I was just summarizing your point. The courts create a law, it does not assume our participation. The CDC issues guidelines that they think we can keep. our doctors can issue greater or lesser ones. The Rabbonim may speak either way, or not at all. I still wonder why the Rav has more Torah authority than the local doctor on our front yards.
    It could be that the doctor on the video, feels that way on people taking disregarding the risk who happen to be Rabbonim. I still maintain that this is not the battle for Kavod HaTorah in our day.

    #1852587
    Health
    Participant

    justsayin001 -“just bc its possible to reach twenty seven feet doesnt mean every time a person breathes it will go that far, it could be a very small chance, perhaps only if its a cough or a sneeze. these slight chances may not be enough to qualify for safek pekuach nefesh, as not every tiny chance that something could lead to death is a shayla of safek pekuach nefesh”

    You missed the point! The Rabbonim have already Paskened that you must abide by the Gov. rules, because it’s a Safek Pikuach Nefesh.
    All I’m saying is just like 6 feet is Required to keep Halacha, so is 27 feet!
    From Above:
    “Lydia Bourouiba, an associate professor at MIT, has researched the dynamics of exhalations (coughs and sneezes, for instance) for years at The Fluid Dynamics of Disease Transmission Laboratory and found exhalations cause gaseous clouds that can travel up to 27 feet.”

    #1852692
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Common,
    I apologize, I mixed up your conversations. It seems like Health wants us to follow his medical advice. and Joseph, wants us to follow his rabbinical advice. I want to know if I am missing something with porch minyanim. They do not seem to be be tefillah b’tzibbur at all. Other than inspiration, there does not seem to be any halacha issue.

    #1852772
    justsaying001
    Participant

    dear health,
    i did not miss the point. im not a posek, but i did speak to one to confirm that just becuase you discover a scientific possibility that what u are doing can cause someone to die doesnt make you have to avoid it becuase of safek pikuach nefashos. he compared it to driving a car, which is also known to create probably more a significant possibility of death, lo aleinu, yet it is unanimously not considered a situation of safek pikuach nefesh. but regardless of the comparison to driving a car, the point is, we can assume that if any posek is allowing you to stand on ur porch- assuming u describe ur situation exactly, he is saying so with a responsible knowledge of the facts. obviously we are talking about a competent posek that is, of course, someone who can be trusted to do the research necessary for this shayla. the posek i spoke to did know of this research that was quoted and he said it doesnt fit the criteria for safek pikuach nefashos. being 27 feet from someone doesnt create a big enough chance of death to be considered safek pikuach nefashos. so yes, mr 27 feet is keeping halacha perfectly!

    #1852822
    Health
    Participant

    Justsaying – I’m Not a Poisek, but I always heard you can Pasken for yourself. And that’s what I’m doing.
    I’m Paskening for myself that Sofek Nefashos is even a far Chasash.
    I base this on that Reb Moshe Ztl., held Smoking would be Ossur, if not for Hakol Dushin Bo. A person who smokes usually doesn’t get affected for many years, yet it would be Ossur because of Safek Nefashos.

    #1852870
    justsaying001
    Participant

    dear health,
    just curious if ur not intrested in asking a posek, who is qualified to make an accurate psak based on comparisons to other precendents found in halacha, whyd u even bother comparing it to smoking urself maybe just do what u want based on what u feel the hagdara of safek pikuach nefashos should be? maybe im just not understanding what ur saying… whered u hear u can just pasken for urself without being a posek i dont think thats even possible, cuz only if ur a posek in the area ur pasekning is it even called a psak no? psak by definition has to come from a qualified posek at least on the issue being discussed. do you mean that u are claiming to be fully trained in the issue of pikuach nefesh?… obviously i can only speculate but i would think smoking is a whole different sugya altogether cuz from the beginning a person is already causing damage to themselves which is just a long process that is statistically proven to be a highly likely cause of death… but then again im not sure ur actually interested in the actual truth anyways at this point…

    #1852929
    Health
    Participant

    justsaying001 -“dear health,
    just curious if ur not intrested in asking a posek, who is qualified to make an accurate psak based on comparisons to other precendents found in halacha, whyd u even bother comparing it to smoking urself maybe just do what u want based on what u feel the hagdara of safek pikuach nefashos should be?”

    I understand. But IMHO, the only one capable in the US to answer such a Shaila is R’ Dovid Feinstein.
    The last time I asked him a Shaila, I actually had to go to the East Side, he didn’t answer phone calls.
    So until I get to him, I have to rely on my own knowlege.
    But my question to you & others, how do you rely on your local Poisek for things Life & Death?!?

    #1852936
    Health
    Participant

    justsaying -“whered u hear u can just pasken for urself without being a posek i dont think thats even possible, cuz only if ur a posek in the area ur pasekning is it even called a psak no?”

    I heard it live from one of the Gedolay Poiskim in America, that’s Not here Anymore. He was originally from Europe.

    #1852966
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    health: how do I rely on my local posek for life and death questions? I’ve only once had to ask such a question. I asked my Rav at the time, and he asked to speak to the doctor to get some details. We gave the doctor permission to speak to him, and he got the required information. He was able to give us a psak.

    I did once have a very complex shailah, although it wasn’t dinei nefashos. I asked my Rav, who told me he couldn’t answer it. He suggested I ask Rabbi Willig. I called Rabbi Willig, who told me, “I’m not touching that shailah with a ten-foot pole! The only Rav in America who should pasken that is R’ Dovid Feinstein. Ask him!”
    I spent weeks trying to reach him, until my Rav actually met him at a funeral. He was able to ask the shailah, and get an answer for me.

    A good Rav should know when he could and when he can not answer a question. If he can’t answer, he should be able to refer you to someone else who can answer it.

    #1852978
    Joseph
    Participant

    I think everyone should rely on their local Rov, as Yair Hoffman suggested in his editorial on YWN’s main page today. In Lakewood they should have porch minyanim whereas in the Five Towns they should not.

    #1852990
    justsaying001
    Participant

    well said damoshe.
    health,
    maybe if you can get a hold of r dovid feinstein ask him for a list of other poskim you can ask ur shaylas to, im sure he’ll have a bunch. living ur life deciding everything for urself unless u can get through to him may not be the best of ideas.

    #1853001
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant
    #1853013
    Joseph
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, in Eretz Yisroel they already permit having minyanim now.

    #1853029
    Health
    Participant

    Justsaying -“maybe if you can get a hold of r dovid feinstein ask him for a list of other poskim you can ask ur shaylas to, im sure he’ll have a bunch. living ur life deciding everything for urself unless u can get through to him may not be the best of ideas.”

    I not interested in your opinion. Are you Joseph?
    When it comes to medical issues, that I don’t know – I’ll ask an expert in that field.
    When I had a Shaila about Death Issues, I refused to ask anyone on Chaim Aruchim’s Bais Din, except the Rosh Bais Din.
    My point is – asking 4 Dayonim in Lakewood is Not Good enough for Me!

    Nowadays they have Many Botay Dinim in Lakewood, if the consesus of Most Poskim here, that Porch Minyunim are Ok – I probably would go.
    Looks to me – s/o had an agenda & wasn’t interested in other opinions!

    #1853051
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Reb Eliezar, Exactly he said everyone show ask the own Rov from his area, So Lakewood said Yes, 5 towns said no, and shalom is achieved everyone should agree to disagree, Flatbush stick to Flatbush, Monsey stick to Monsey etc tec.

    #1853063
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    The virus apparently does not remain airborne in Lakewood as it does in 5T, thus with lower transmissibility, it is “safer” fo hold outdoor minyanim.
    Obviously, this makes no sense from a public health perspective. What you have is two groups of chashuvah rabbonim looking at the same set of facts and reaching different conclusions. It won’t be the first time in the history of klal Yisroel and unlikely to be the last.

    #1853069
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    I was advised not to take advice from online comments. I guess deciding on a Rov to follow about a gathering that is probably not a minyan anyways, is regarded as less than advice.

    #1853070
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    The main question is, who is the Rav that I ask about whom to ask about whom to ask?

    #1853071
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Because the only qeustion people may possibly have is about a porch minyan. The Rabbonim are also not answering any other questions now. In fact,we are starting a new movement; MO= Minyan Only.

    #1853212
    justsaying001
    Participant

    health,
    so now instead of having one rav ud prefer to count up all the poskim u know of and go with the majority…?… i lost you…

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