Inviting divorced women to your Shabbos table?

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  • #1808880

    philosopher
    Participant

    Joseph, overall Chassidim have not become more machmir, but some like Satmer and Sqvere have definitely become more machmir. The eltere Satmere was definitely less reserved than the general younger generation of Satmere. But the outside influence was less overall too and that’s why it didn’t effect marriages in a negative way. It was a different world back then…

    #1808881

    Billywee
    Participant

    They have gotten more machmir. But even if they haven’t they certainly haven’t become less machmir.
    So if their low divorce rate is due to the same or stricter levels of gender seperation and Tznius.
    Why has their divorce rate increased greatly over the last 5-10 years?

    #1808883

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Think about the words from an old chassidish melody sung by a group called דריי הונט נאַכט

    “….One is the loneliest number a yid will ever know….

    #1808886

    Amil Zola
    Participant

    Any speculation about divorce rates among any group of Jews is just that. It’s an individual opinion which is not documented.

    I live outside the NY/NJ Jewniverse and wonder if this proscription also included widows (of which I am one)?

    Additionally, I would guess that if you are inviting someone from your community, they are aware what local norms are and behave accordingly.

    #1808892

    philosopher
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, hachnosos orchim is a great mitzvah, I’m certainly not debating that. But there are prerquisites to this mitzvah. The first thing a person should look at when they do a mitzvah is if it will elevate them or lower them spiritually. Many have tried to “save” others while dragging down their family’s and their own ruchnius.

    Now I’m not saying you can’t invite anyone because it lowers the spiritual level of the home since the guest will automatically be of the opposite gender of one of the spouses (or teenaged or adult children in the family…). Neither do I wish to make a blanket statement that one cannot speak to the opposite gender at seudahs, I’m not saying it’s wrong in all times. Everything should be within context. And I’m sorry that you are not invited into Chassidishe homes but I can see that happening. As I said previously, we weren’t invited to anyone’s home going back 25 years ago when we were a family with no father in the house. But I wouldn’t want it another way, there’s no way I’d agree to eat at other family’s seudahs just because we didn’t have a father…So I do get that Chassidishe families don’t invite you, not that I’m not agreeing that it’s right, I’m just stating that that’s the metzius…

    But as for not inviting guests, all I said was that if one’s spouse is not comfortable with the guests they shouldn’t be invited. I did not say one shouldn’t invite guests at all, or that one cannot talk at all to guests of the opposite gender…

    #1808923

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    If not for a single caring family, I mostly would spend my shabbos alone.

    #1808931

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Philosopher clearly believes in the “slippery slope” theory that any sort of social engagement with singles or even other families may jeopardize the spirituality of one own’s family and possibly lead to a breakdown in values and disruption of the marriage I’m not sure there is any purpose in debating the merits of such a closed model of social interaction and need for yidden to reach out to others in the tzibur who are not so fortunate. He claims that he grew up within that closed model, would never have accepted an invitation to share with other families and if you c’v suffer a loss or simply are not so fortunate to find your beschert, just suck it up and get used to being alone. I and other posters here come at it from a much more open and accepting view of sharing with those who would otherwise be alone and we don’t believe it threatens our own hashkafah or jeopardizes our own relationships with our spouses or family members.

    #1808930

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Philospher, Look at Avraham Avinu, three arabs come, it certainly did not elevate his aura of kedusha, but he still invited them because he thoughr that it was the righr thing to do. You must take the chance. If he/she doesn’t behave properly, you are exempt from inviting them again.

    #1808938

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Philosopher, your logic is what is called ostrich politics, where someone sticks her head in the sand, not caring for the other person as long as she can rest in her holy tower. Chanoch and Noach were held responsible for this type of behavior. not mixing with people. We have a responsibility not only on our elevation but on others.
    The last day of Pesach we all eat gebrochs (misch) in order to be able to eat together.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  Reb Eliezer.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  Reb Eliezer.
    #1808982

    Billywee
    Participant

    I know a family of choshuv tzadikim that exposed their children to the outside world. The first one had a child go OTD. The child that stayed didn’t learn from it and also had a son that went OTD. His son that stayed had a bunch of sons that went far away to live amongst and interact with non-Jews.
    In the long run their descendants turned out fine.
    For privacy I won’t give their last name. But their first names were Avraham, Yitzchok, and Yaakov.

    #1808960

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The Mdrash on Tehilim quoted by the Binah Leitim compares the creatiion of the world with chesed to a king who has storerooms of all goods he asks, what should I do with this? I will share this with my servants and they will praise me for it. As Hashem created the world for our benefit not His, we must similarly share our wealth and knowledge (teaching our Torah knowledge) to others. The praise encourages the continuation of bestowement of the goods. If one does not do that, it would have been better not be born as the neshoma was on an elevated level before being born.

    #1808998

    philosopher
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, I hear your point…but seeing the “fruits” of many open house policies, I’d say one should guard their house as much as possible…

    I never said not to invite guests, so we agree that one should invite guests that respect their standards otherwise they need not get reinvited.

    We dont have to invite others into our houses to teach them right from wrong otherwise we should invite the dregs of society to teach them the straight ways… I don’t agree that inviting them into our house is the only way to put our message out there…I strongly believe religious Jews are a light onto the nations when we vote for politicians who promote family values, we protest against the liberals who are eroding morality, we should be more outspoken and be a voice against immorality like Ben Shapiro… I don’t agree with him on all issues, I’m just saying we should take a stand and let the world know where we stand.

    #1809003

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I did not say to invite every person, but if we show we care for lonely people, Hashem will make sure that we should never be lonely and need others help. It might even bring him/her closer to Hashem.

    #1809043

    philosopher
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, I totally agree with you.

    #1809042

    Billywee
    Participant

    Philosopher
    Seriously, Jews are a light into the nation’s when we vote for politicians that promote family values?
    How many wives has Trump had? How many immoral scandals has he been caught up in?
    We and the Evangicals accept him despite his immoral flaws, we all know about.
    Could anyone with Trumps history become a Gadol Hador?
    Yet, most of the frum velt has declared him to be Moshiach.

    #1809084

    banjobob
    Participant

    It is absolutely the right thing to do

    #1809124

    Whatsaktome
    Participant

    Yes, long live our teacher and master king messiah Donald Trump, I personally believe that trump is the only person in out generation worth it to be moshiach

    #1809149

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Whatsaktome, Does Trump keep the Sheva Mitzvos to be Meshiach?

    #1809172

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “….Does Trump keep the Sheva Mitzvos to be Meshiach?

    Well, lets consider them one by one. If I was a Trumpkopf, I’d hold off on the yellow flags for now.

    Not to worship idols. Is worshiping oneself as the greatest narcissist in history considered idolatry?
    Not to curse God. His increasingly frequent use of the G-D adjectives at MAGA rallies might raise questions?
    To establish courts of justice. And question the legitimacy of judges he didn’t appoint? .
    Not to commit murder. Not directly, but ask the Kurds in northern Syria.
    Not to commit adultery, bestiality, or sexual immorality. Ask his first two wives or Melania about Stormy D.
    Not to steal. Or at least not get caught as in enriching his hotels at taxpayer expense
    Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal. Give him a pass given his preference for well done Big Macs

    #1809193

    Milhouse
    Participant

    “….One is the loneliest number a yid will ever know….

    No, for yidden nine is the loneliest number.

    #1809194

    philosopher
    Participant

    Billywee, I’ve reread my post many times and don’t see any reference to Donald Trump… Just kidding, I didn’t reread my post because I know I wasn’t particularly thinking of Donald Trump and therefore didn’t mention him- I was thinking more of local politicians.

    But if we are talking about Donald Trump, I think he’s a better option than the Demorats that promote an agenda of pro abortion, pro LGTB, pro everything that’s immoral. Trump however, not that he’s particularly pro-morality, (although he did sign into law that the army won’t provide medical care for “trans” crazies) but he’s not stupid and knows that his conservative supporters will drop him like a hot potato if he starts supporting liberal “values”. In fact, he got backlash from his supporters for holding up an LGTB sign. He needs to appeal to conservatives who are his strongest supporters and he knows it.

    #1809195

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Cyrus was an idolater and yet the pasuk calls him Moshiach…

    So long as Trump’s affairs were with single women they were not adultery. We won’t talk about what he bragged he was doing during the Vietnam war, because that was a long time ago when he was a liberal Democrat. In any case, nobody has ever upheld him as a politician who promotes family values. He has other qualities, but that is not among them and nobody pretends it is.

    #1809196

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Philosopher, what is the meaning of the great mitzva of Hachnosas Orchim which is greater than the acceptance of the Shchina?

    Actually Philosopher wins that point. Hachnosas Orchim means inviting travelers, people who have no home to go to. Inviting people who have a home at which they could eat is NOT hachnosas orchim. If the people are lonely then inviting them is surely a great mitzvah, but not that one. It falls under chessed, ve’ahavta lere’acha kamocha, and the Torah’s general concern for the stranger, orphan, widow, and Levi, a category which surely also includes the divorced and the single, but the Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim ch 308) defines hachnosas orchim and this does not fit the definition.

    #1809199

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    GH, well said, even not keeping one disqualifies him from being Meshiach, besides in the Rambam Hilchas Melodhim it indicates that Meshiach iwill be a descendant of David Hamelech.

    #1809241

    philosopher
    Participant

    Millhouse, well, thank you. I was questioning how us Chassidim would seemingly be lax in the mitzvah of hachasos orchim. But when you categorize invitations to lonely people as chesed, then Chassidim do a lot of chesed but prefer what מה טובי אהולך יעקב really means , keeping their homes more private and opening it selectively and with care. Of course, I’m not saying inviting lonely people is not a great mitzvah and perhaps there could be rectification in that area, but it’s a mentality of the home being kind of private so I don’t think that will change…. One cannot say though that Chassidim don’t do a lot of chesed and also do the mitzvah of hachnoses orchim beautifully as well, hosting travelers, having hachnasos orchim rooms in their houses always available for guests, etc. We just don’t have “open house” policies of inviting divorced women or non-religious people and others who non-Chassidim invite on a steady basis.

    #1809301

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Milhouse, you are nitpicking . What is the purpose of Hachnosas Orchim. To make sure that a person who is alone has a place to eat and stay. Hachnosas Orchim is similar to bikur cholim part of chesed where I give credit to Satmar. Ths fact is that these people are alone and being alone reminds them of this fact and increases their pain.

    #1809338

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    If you are alone, can you do bikur cholim for the opposite gender?

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  YW Moderator-25.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  Reb Eliezer.
    #1809360

    knaidlach
    Participant

    Everyone knows their weakness, maybe someone has a problem with having someone of the opposite gender at their table. especially during a meal where people loosen up, more talkative; friendlier, (i hope i was understood correctly).

    #1809369

    Creamnosugar
    Participant

    Philosopher, you and your community are free to operate according to the “closed model” in an effort to protect your spiritual well-being. But don’t kid yourself that you are serving as a light unto the nations. Not by erring on the side of NOT inviting lonely guests to your home. Not by a community custom of not inviting widowed or divorced or single guests. And especially not by “protest[ing] against the liberals who are eroding morality, … and [by] be[ing] a voice against immorality” (In effect, by yelling at/criticizing supposed apikorsim from your holy tower). Nor by voting for low-lifes like Trump in the name of “family values”. (If you wouldn’t want him crossing the threshold into your home, maybe you shouldn’t vote for him?) A person might change for the better by interacting with erliche people. But no one ever changed in response to being protested against by a tzaddik in peltz.

    #1809393

    philosopher
    Participant

    Creamnosugar, I grew up in a single parent home without being invited to others seudahs, my mother making Kiddush and havdalah, and we grew up fine, thank you very much. Sorry, but I don’t think it’s right to invite young divorced men or women, to Shabbos seudahs on a steady basis. Seudahs are not a place for informal mixing. Elderly people is a different issue, and you may critisize us for not inviting them, but I can think of many more things I can critisize the non-Chassisidishe communities buy of course I won’t, we should see th good in each other, every community has strengths and weaknesses. But I will say that inviting people who are not on our spiritual level to our family tables is a recipe for disaster, especially in these times. And I’ve personally seen disastrous results in many families of one kid after the next going OTD, or are halfway OTD because parents wanted to be inclusive and nice to everyone or make BTs.

    And you won’t say how we are or we are not a light unto the nations, Hashem is the judge of that.

    As for only voting for politicians whom I would invite to my house, that would mean I would vote for no one. That’s worse than not voting for those who will fight liberals and for conservative values which are closer to our values, so I think that suggestion is not the smartest.

    #1809420

    The little I know
    Participant

    Hachnosas Orchim, according to the Sefer Hachaim (brother of the Maharal) and the Maharil is not fulfilled by having a guest who comes to your door seeking a meal. the Maharil adds that if the guest is poor, one does not fulfill the mitzvah at all. It is tzedokoh and chesed, both precious mitzvos. But Hachnosas Orchim is done by proactively inviting the guest – as Avrohom Avinu did sitting outside seeking a guest to invite. And inviting even the gvir, the wealthy person is the mission of Hachnosas Orchim. It should not be confused with tzedokoh and chesed, also beautiful and precious mitzvos.

    Check these references, and then weigh in again about the notion that the mitzvah is for the lonely and downtrodden.

    #1809486

    Creamnosugar
    Participant

    Philosopher wrote: “[Y]ou won’t say how we are or we are not a light unto the nations, Hashem is the judge of that.”

    My response was to you being the judge of that: “I strongly believe religious Jews are a light onto the nations when WE [emphasis mine] vote…and protest…[and are ] more outspoken and a voice against immorality”

    In any event my objection is more practical. The point of being “a light unto the nations” is to model positive conduct or growth that others will observe and be motivated to emulate. But for that to happen, the “nations” need the opportunity to observe & experience. The examples of being a light that you gave –emerging from the cloister to vote for an objectively base person, or to protest liberal values, or to rail against immorality– will not attract or influence liberals, or those of questionable morals or values, or, really, anyone.

    As for your decision to not invite those who are “not on our spiritual level…” Luckily, that, too, is for Hashem to judge. I was a widow at 33 with an 18 month old and no observant family nearby. I will be eternally grateful to the many hosts who B”H did not pause to assess my spiritual level before inviting me to share Shabbos & Yontif meals

    #1809479

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    TLIK, we are not talking in the OP about a person who is knocking on the door to be fed. These are not poor peiple who need support but feel badly being alone and would never ask to be invited. They will mostly bring a present for appreciation.

    #1809514

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    After 80+ posts, its clear that this is a classic illustration of a fundamental “haskhafah gap” between MO and Chassidish/Yeshivish lifestyles and beliefs. I’m obviously more familiar with the former perspective where we frequently would spontaneously invite people we had just met that morning in shul to join us for shabbos lunch, Likewise, I cannot tell you how many times travelling myself overseas on business trips, I was a guest for a shabbos meal with somone I had literally just met. Even more important in our circles are the efforts to provide a continuing support network to those who find themselves alone through divorce or the loss of a spouse. While those suffering a loss have plenty of company during shivah and shloshim, its a very different story months or years later. While some may regard sharinga meal with these singles (both young and older) as a threat to their spirituality, we believe our support efforts are 110 percent in accordance with daas torah and halacha. I will not condemn or question the motives or values of those who have a contrary perspective.

    #1809598

    frumtd
    Participant

    Not to get too deep in this, but regarding divorce, regardless of whether Chassidim or Litvish have a higher rate of divorce, such a conclusion ignores many other concerns. Namely, is a lower divorce rate by itself indicative of an overall better situation or not? Perhaps more Chassidim live in dysfunctional homes and due to increased barriers to divorce (financial/social/familial considerations) they can’t make a decision that would be beneficial for the entire family. Also this whole idea of trying to measure one community by another ignores some basic questions such as what is the right thing to do or how to live. Numerically growing or larger or more unified communities do not prove anything, as otherwise you would have to look outside the Jewish world to see how you compare to any number of Christian, Muslim, and other groups.

    #1809736

    philosopher
    Participant

    Creamnosugar, since when does being a voice of morality and outspoken against immorality have anything to do with inviting people into one’s home? It may have a connection to you but not to us Chassidim…

    As for people getting a chance to observe us, we are in the limelight everyday, no need to invite others into our home. Because of your personal journey you may have a different opinion than what Chassidishe people in general have. Different communities have different standards and different lifestyles and that’s ok. But back to the OP’s question, regardless if one is Litvish, Yekkish or Chassidish, if a host is uncomfortable with his guests it’s not a mitzvah to invite them back.

    #1809742

    philosopher
    Participant

    frumtd, if a higher divorce rate indicates less dysfunction then the secular society is very, very, very functional…

    #1811351

    RebbeDebbie
    Participant

    So the higher divorce rates are among the more modern elements? I wonder how that works with reforms and conservatives (assuming they are the very tiny percentage that didn’t intermarry). Are their marriages (man and women only, and both halachically Jewish) more doomed to divorce than hassidishe marriages?

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