November 17, 2010 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #1143896
So right, what non-kosher things do I like?
Yes, we invite our non-Jewish relatives. My mother has a cousin that married a non-Jew. Her kids are Jewish. If we only invited her and the kids, they never would have come. Their son would have not been exposed to his frum relatives. Chances are he would not have become frum at all.
Yes, we invite our non-Jewish relatives.November 17, 2010 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #1143897haifagirlParticipant
Would you invite your Jewish co-workers and exclude your non-Jewish co-workers? If they knew about it would that be a kiddush Hashem?
What about your non-Jewish supervisor?November 17, 2010 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #1143898
Maris Ayin, Rabbosai? Maris Ayin?
I wish some posters here would start maintaining Biblical injunctions, then we could move on to Rabbinical injunctions.November 17, 2010 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #1143899A23Participant
A Woman outside bklyn, which halachos do you rely on to say that going into a mosque is out of the question?November 17, 2010 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #1143900
Maryis Ayin is (in those cases) only if someone would think it is Kosher. If it is a known Traif store (such as McDonalds), there is no Maryis Ayin since no one will think that the cheeseburger is Kosher (Al PI Rav Belsky).November 17, 2010 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #1143901
SJS, you should have broken off all contact to the intermarried couple in your family, including the Jewish spouse who intermarried. Her family should have sat shiva for her.November 17, 2010 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #1143902minyan galMember
Helpful: G-d forbid, an intermarriage should happen among one of your children. Let’s see how fast you sit shiva and cut the child out of your life. I think not. Had SJS not included these relatives in her family occasions, then one of them would never have become frum even though they were technically Jewish. (I don’t think that you read her post very clearly). She is responsible for adding another person to Klal Yisroel – a huge accomplishment.November 17, 2010 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #1143903
GAW, I’m aware. That’s why I found so right’s comment so strange.
Helpful, the family did cut off contact for a long time.
But why would we cut off the Jewish kids? Especially because (and this is paramount) ONE OF THEM BECAME FRUM BECAUSE OF US.
Why would we lose a Jewish soul????
Am I part of a different religion here? Isn’t it imperitive to get Jews to be frum? Or is the goal just to sit in our own little corner and feel superior to the non-observant?November 17, 2010 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #1143904arcParticipant
helpful (ironic names seems to be the trend) one of their kids became frum so maybe she shouldnt have broken contact regardless of whether or not they sat shiva.November 17, 2010 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #1143905
Thank you, that’s what I’m trying to say.
i guess the saying those that don’t believe there are no answers, and those that believe have no questions, remains true.November 17, 2010 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #1143906
To the poster called Helpful:
I am not aware of any posek who says you should sit shiva for a cousin.
Please provide a source.
2: The MB there does not bring down “this” Taz. Even if it does exist, it is probably talking specificly on Yom Tov (as per the Siman). And if it is not, it argues on the Shulchan Aruch and the MB.
Please point me to somewhere I can read it (I don’t have a SA with TAZ at work).November 17, 2010 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #1143907
do you really think this discussion is about RELATIVES? give me a break, of course there are exceptions to every rule.November 17, 2010 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #1143908
interesting how you say i have no chesed lol i can’t help but laugh.
did i insult anyone here? why would you insult me?
it always amuses me how someone can insult levi for not being nice to shimon! makes no sense!
do you know if i do chesed? do you know if i work with goyim?
at least you’re consistent, you’re wrong on all counts!November 17, 2010 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #1143909
Inviting non-Jewish friends to a simcha IS a Kiddush Hashem, aren’t we suppose to be a light among nations? The Jewish wedding ceremony, the bris and yes even an upsharim provides plenty of learning possibilitiesNovember 17, 2010 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #1143910
Myfriend and his twin Helpful. Please explain the Maris Ayin in my case. Who saw me enter this restaurant (or who should I have been concerned would have seen me enter this restaurant).
“Participating in a party in a treif restaurant is clearly maris eyin.”
Again, I will ask you to explain the maris ayin in my situation. Please answer this question.
“We have seen on this board all sorts of crazy aveiros being justified by claims of anono rov’s okaying them.”
I can just as easily flip this around on you and state we have seen all sorts of crazy things ossured on this board by anonymous self proclaimed poskim, but I wont. Just answer the question. Please explain the maris ayin in the particular situation I mentioned.November 17, 2010 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #1143911
Helpful. When did you proclaim yourself the posek of the CR?November 17, 2010 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #1143912November 17, 2010 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #1143913
Why are you acknowledging your goyish “relatives”?
Because you don’t get to pick who your family is.
I’m so happy for you that you have the perfect family where no one ever sins and everything goes perfectly for you. Here, in the real world, it doesn’t always work that way.
Yes, I have non-Jewish relatives, not through any choice or fault of my own. I’m sorry if my family makes me unacceptable to you, but they *are* still family and so they are still welcome in my home. We’ve had them over for happy occasions and for sad, for Shabbos and for Yom Tov. We believe that it’s important for those kids who are halachically Jewish to see what a Jewish home is and that in the cases where the it’s the wife who’s not Jewish that perhaps they might want to convert.
The WolfNovember 17, 2010 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #1143914
The IG”M is talking about there where the resturaunt is mixed, kosher & non kosher. There, one can not enter because someone will think the person is eating the traif stuff, or that the store is Kosher.
Here, we are talking about a well known non-kosher resturaunt (in which no one would have a Hava Amina that it is Kosher) where you can buy a soda. As I said, if the guy is holding a burger, it would be MA.
Nireh B’aynai, that if there would be a Safek (such as Dunken Doughnuts or Subway, which some are Kosher), it would be more of a problem, and perhaps the IG”M would apply.
It is a good Mekor though (and very much Nogaigh in other cases), and I thank you for pointing it out to me. This is why I stay, to learn.November 17, 2010 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #1143915
your post brings tears to the eyes.
still assur to invite a goy for a yom tov meal.
the bottom line for many of these topics, and writers. the torah is a book of rules, we don’t pick and choose based on what makes us feel good, or because we think we’re doing the right thing, or it seems like the right thing to do.
many a good intention led to wars!
yes it’s hard to know what to do in all cases, and that’s why we must i repeat must be close to a real rav to ask these shalos.
some of them very tricky or maybe controversial, some are blatant halachos that we might not be aware of (like having a goy by a yom tov meal).November 17, 2010 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #1143916
WolfishMusings- keep on doing what you are doing! How else are these Halachically Jews suppose to be exposed. As for those kids that are not halachically Jewish, perhaps becoming a Bnai Noach would be more suitableNovember 17, 2010 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #1143917
Goyim are never your family. A “marriage” to a goy is a non-marriage.November 17, 2010 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #1143918
still assur to invite a goy for a yom tov meal.
Not necessarily. There’s nothing that says you can’t have them over to eat. You simply cannot cook explicitly for them, but if you have them over in a large enough crowd, it’s not nearly as much of a problem. I would cook the same amount for 16 as I would for 12. As a proof, if I were cooking for 12 and they called at the last minute and said “can we bring four more people over, is it okay?” my answer would always be yes — because I ALWAYS overcook.
The WolfNovember 17, 2010 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #1143919
Goyim are never your family. A “marriage” to a goy is a non-marriage.
Technically, yes. In the practical real world, they’re still family.
The WolfNovember 17, 2010 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #1143920
chesedname, its not quite as simple as “Assur to invite a non-Jew for yomtov.”
AFAIK, you have to make sure not cook food on yom tov, just in case you cook extra for the non-Jew.
It is not a simple thing, and one should CYLOR when applicable.November 17, 2010 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #1143921supportMember
I think some people need a refresher course on Halacha. Many “halachos” that are mentioned are incorrect and can following them can be harmful.
Most Rabbanim say not to sit Shiva today when someone marries out of the religion. It doesn’t have the same implications that it did many years ago. There are many that have returned and or their children became frum becasue of the exposure to frum families.
One is allowed to go into a Mosque, it isn’t a Bais Avodah Zorah. The muslimm religion al pe halacha is a Navi Sheker not Avodah zorah. I would think it dangerous for other reasons for a Yid to go into a Mosque.
One is allowed to go into a known non kosher resturant for various reasons. The problem is if it isn’t known that it is non kosher and someone would see an obviously frum person enter they can think it is Kosher. There also is an issue with eating even kosher food at a non kosher affair because of Seudas Achashvarosh. Sometiems by not going it causes more problems even if it isn’t a monetary one. Each situation needs a Ravs Psak since each situation is different.
Having Goyim/Non frum people at a Simcha is often needed as Darchei Shalom. I personally plan on having a number of these people at my chasunah IYH. They range from coworkers who will be insulted if they aren’t invited and doctors and physical therapists (and staff) without whom I wouldn’t be making any simchos. If they know that I am making a Simcha and they will have to adjust their treatment because I’m now married and they helped me get to where I am and will continue to help me why should I recipricate their devotion to me by inviting them. If this offendse some I hope they won’t come to the wedding because they aren’t there to share in MY simcha becasue my Simcha would be incomplete without these non jewish/frum people there…
Non Jewish/Frum weddings are much more elaborate then Frum ones. They spend so much on the location, decor etc that they have many less people in attendance. If someone complains about a simple (or even not so simple) Bar Mitzvah being so expensive ask them how much they spent on their child’s (or their parents spent on their) sweet sixteen!November 17, 2010 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #1143922
how could you say keep doing it, when the halacha says clearly you can’t?? inviting a goy for yom tov meal isn’t even disputed, all agree it’s assur?November 17, 2010 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #1143923
gavra, don’t know how you are making that kind of a distinction between partial treif and totally treif. In fact, if a store (i.e. coffee shop) sells some kosher and some non kosher, there may be a heter to got in and buy kosher. It says one who is famished, and has nowhere else to eat (in place of tzar and loss) is allowed to walk into a non-kosher restaurant and eat any kosher food which they may serve (coffee etc). So obviously without that hardship it wouldn’t apply. Also see Igros Moshe O.C. 4:82.
In any event, see what Rav Belsky said above, I cited – based on Rav Moshe.November 17, 2010 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #1143924
how many pppl here would hug a fellow female worker, that just “needs” that hug? whether due to a divorce or lose of a child etc..
i mean it is the right thing to do isn’t it? they would respect you, and appreciate it? if not why not? who cares about halacha, it’s just the right thing to do, and as others have posted they can ask questions later about it. isn’t that our tafkid to answer their questions??November 17, 2010 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #1143925mamashtakahMember
Reading some of the posts here again reinforces why each person should have a Rav to ask, and not rely on the “poskim” who inhabit the CR. A Rav is able to see and interpret shades of gray within black and white, while several of the posters here obviously can’t.
Perhaps one day they will learn that lesson.
I also don’t have a perfect family – I have non-Jewish relatives. But many of their kids are halachically Jewish. The Wolf is undeniably correct in what he wrote here.November 17, 2010 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #1143926
Helpful-true with regards to the actual marriage, but the children born from a Jewish mother are still Jews and thus Wolf has a responsibility to educate them as best he can. These children did not choose to be born with a “Goy” father…We do not understand why Hashem would allow this, what we do know is it is our responsibility to educate JEWS from all backgrounds in hopes they adapt a more observant life style. As for children born from a non-Jewish mother, than our responsibility is to show them the path of a Bnai Noach, as with all non-Jews. But, I would only do so this if a Non Jew expressed interest in Judaism and G-D. Otherwise, I would tend to remain silent on the matter.November 17, 2010 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #1143927arcParticipant
mariage or not the kids are your family and could be jewish.November 17, 2010 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #1143928dunnoMember
Someone told me his Rav said it’s not Maaras Ayin to go into a not koser restaurant in Manhattan nowadays since it is assumed that you’re there for business and have a kosher meal ordered.November 17, 2010 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #1143929so rightMember
Amazing how some people twist non-heterim into doing some of the biggest aveiros in the book.November 17, 2010 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #1143930
If you read the Teshuva inside, with the situation presented, (including the first part of the paragraph, not just the second half) that is what Rav Moshe is talking about, not a known non Kosher Resturaunt.
I guess Rav Belsky and I just understand the teshuva differently than you do.
P.S. 4:82 has nothing to do with the question that I can see.November 17, 2010 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #1143931Lomed Mkol AdamMember
GAW: la’aniyas da’ati, I fail to understand the logic of your chiluk. If when a store only sells treif food, we say people will assume you went in to buy a soda or use the restroom; then kal v’chomer if the store sells both treif and kosher, we should definitely say people will assume you went in to buy kosher, a soda, or use the restroom?
Unless you mean, that the issur is not ‘maaris ayin’ [since one could be entering to use the restroom], but rather causing a ‘michshol’, in other words, someone ignorant might think that since this religious Jew entered the store, it must be an all kosher food store and he will then eat from all the food in the store; hence the difference between an all treif store [which even an ignorant person will not come to err] and half kosher/half treif store?November 17, 2010 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #1143932
No one is disputing or even discussing if you should be nice to a non frum/goy relative. you should always be nice, and you should always be nice to everyone, related or not.
as far as inviting a goy for yom tov meal, wolf is that heter your own, you didn’t see it in a sefer, or did you ask someone?November 17, 2010 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #1143934
So right, can you be a little more specific?November 17, 2010 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #1143935
Amazing how some people twist non-heterim into doing some of the biggest aveiros in the book.
I’m curious which aveiros described here are “the biggest aveiros in the book.” No one has advocated murder, idolatry or sexual indiscretion. To me, those are the “biggest aveiros in the book.”
The WolfNovember 17, 2010 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1143936
Helpful, Myfriend. Please tell me where the maris ayin is/was in my situation?November 17, 2010 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #1143937
LMA: Rav Moshe actually mentions both, and seems to take issue only with eating things, not entering (to use Sherutim, for example). And as Rav Moshe seeems to say there (last 5 lines), if everyone who sees you will know that you are doing something unquestionably Muttar, then it would be allowed.
Why don’t you take a look and decide for yourself?November 17, 2010 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1143938
as far as inviting a goy for yom tov meal, wolf is that heter your own, you didn’t see it in a sefer, or did you ask someone?
Yes, I discussed it with someone.
Again, there is no issur, whatsoever, to invite a non-Jew for a Yom Tov meal. If, for example, I were serving nothing more than deli sandwiches, there would be no issue whatsoever. The issue is only in the cooking for them. You simply cannot cook explicitly for them.
In any event, don’t rely on me for a p’sak. By all means, CYLOR.
The WolfNovember 17, 2010 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #1143939
“Yes, I discussed it with someone.”
A friend or bubba? Or a posek?
There is a reason why Yidden sit shiva when, Chas V’Challila, someone intermarries.November 17, 2010 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #1143940
apushtayid:November 17, 2010 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #1143941
Chesedname… I advise you to speak with a competent Rov, before you give your halachic opinions. Wolf clearly explained how one could have non-Jews for a Yom Tov Meal. Another reason why no one here should seek out advice regards to Halacha 🙂November 17, 2010 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #1143942Lomed Mkol AdamMember
GAW: I got it; you mean it’s only Assur to buy kosher food in a half kosher/half treif store, but it’s Muttar to enter the store to buy a soda or coffee [and of course use the restroom] since you are really doing something unquestionably Muttar. Thanks.November 17, 2010 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #1143943
You could apply the same logic to shopping in ShopRite. How does an observer know that I’m going to buy something kosher? Perhaps I’m headed straight for the lobster counter?
The reality is that when someone sees me, he probably assumes that I’m there for some permissible activity. While it is possible that I’m loading up my cart with lobster while in there, the observer probably figures “hey, he’s frum, he’s probably buying kosher.”
Likewise I, as an observer, if I saw a frum person enter a nice treif restaurant, would first think “he’s there on business to meet a client and not to eat.”
If I can be dan l’kaf zechus by Shoprite, why can’t I do so by a restaurant?
The WolfNovember 17, 2010 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #1143944
with all due respect, open a sefer once in a while or at the leats keep the ignorance a secret.
inviting a goy on yom tov is assur!! period.
the fact that you agree with wolf’s corupt and apikoros logic, is laughable and sad at the same time.
i could justify anything, it doesn’t make it right or mutar.
are you new to halachos, and how they work?November 17, 2010 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #1143945
There is a reason why Yidden sit shiva when, Chas V’Challila, someone intermarries.
I have not seen anyone do this in at least my lifetime. Furthermore, I am not aware of any rav in the U.S. who advocates this today.
The WolfNovember 17, 2010 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #1143946
A friend or bubba? Or a posek?
No. The man in the moon. : rolleyes :
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