Is a Boy Looking to Date a Girl or a Chavrusah?

Home Forums Shidduchim Is a Boy Looking to Date a Girl or a Chavrusah?

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 343 total)
  • Author
  • #588696

    I would like the public’s opinion on girls who try to impress boys by discussing Gemorroh and Halachic issues (which are normally not in a girl’s league)on dates, and expressing herself with words like ‘Ipche Mistabre, Haveh Mina, Eynicho naama and other forms of Yeshivishe Reid…..

    There was a case recently where a girl insisted on cutting a date short because she didnt want the boy to miss Mincha-Maariv(yes, she liked him and it was their second date and she is still not married, lol)

    Does a boy want a well rounded knowledgable girl who knows when not to be overbearing, or do they appreciate a female chavrusah??


    Nameless, it depends on both parties.

    I have a few (girl)friends who are real shteigers (I think thats the right term, I dont really speak yeshivish) and want a husband they can learn well with. They also want a husband who doesnt want to miss minyan, even for a date.

    They need to date people who are going to appreciate their knowledge and learning capabilities. Some of these girls can “outlearn” most yeshiva boys. They cant just date regular yeshiva boys so they should both be aware, before going on the date, what their own expectations are.


    About all these gemara loshon’s I think it’s laughable!

    About missing mincha-maariv, I don’t think I would have the guts, but I would not marry a boy who I know for a fact missed mincha (the date started before the zman and ended after shkia) In fact I dated someone (who I am now married to) who totally lost track of time and did not realize that it was almost mincha time. I hinted at it by saying that sunset is starting and it’s so beautiful. He took the hint and we quickly left. I realized that it was an innocent mistake and I am a realistic person that realizes that people aren’t perfect, but if the date would have dragged on and on, and he obviously did not daven mincha, then yes, I would have to think twice.

    What about a girl’s father who calls my husband all the time with painfully detailed questions about the boy’s derech halimud. This girl is a really special girl but is unfortunately not too pretty and a bit overweight. She wants a boy who is very serious about his learning but I don’t think she really cares exactly how he goes about it. She is 24 and really needs a shidduch. I feel really bad for her. She would make a great wife!

    Dr. Pepper

    This is just my humble opinion, but every person interested in getting married should be looking for the person who they would like to spend the rest of their life with and who they would like to work together with to bring up children in the way that Hashem wants them to.

    It can be frustrating at times, but just be yourself. Hashem created you with love and Hashem created someone else (also with love) just for you.

    May you all merit to find your spouse in the proper time.

    lammed hey


    Sure she didn’t go to Midreshet Lindenbaum? 🙂


    A girl is not allowed to learn Gemora. This type of impressing, aside from being bane, should raise all sorts of red flags.


    And then that same girl doesnt let her husband go out to work…..You must sit in Kollel forever.(dont have to learn- at least sit there so I can tell my friends you’re in Kollel)


    so, if a young lady is Blessed with ability and love of learning Torah, she should not deny her passion.

    If she is really trying to impress her date, this would be much like a guy “putting his best foot forward. As long as they are honest about who they are and who they aspire to become in their growth. This is when I wish I listened to my Grandmother, OBM; there is an expression in yiddish – she would say there’s a lid for every pot! It sounds better in yiddish. I can see how some guys could be intimidated by such a girl, to them I would say she is not your basheret.

    As far as missing mincha/maariv — why can the boy put the date on “hold” so to speak and resume after his davening -if the date is going well. This speaks volumes as Avraham Aveinu kinda put Ha Kodesh Baruch Hu on “hold” for the mitzva of hachnasas orchim…

    If a young lady has the saichel to be aware of the time and suggests to the young man whether subtley or straight out that it is time for davening, this is one quality I would like for my sons, IY”H!



    please correct me if I am wrong, I learned that a young lady may indeed learn Gemora just not publically. In this context it is private learning…

    Please let me know where we do get this from – I have learned that there are opinions saying both. Meaning no learning Gemora at all, and not learning publically…

    Can someone clarify?


    Joseph – you are very predictable.

    My rabbi says I can learn all the gemara I want.


    my wife only impressed me with showing what respect she has for one learning Torah, and thanks to hashem, because of her efforts to support a learning husband, I had the honor of a lot of fruitful years in kolel.

    Would she start to show “lumdos”, so that would’ve meant that I have to respect her as a talmud chochom, so I wouldn’t have tie the knot..



    A girl cannot learn any Torah Shel Baal Peh, which Gemora is a part. This is clear.

    There was previously a LONG discussion about just this issue in the Coffee Room. If you search for it, you can find it. I think part of it was in the Rav Belsky thread. If you cannot locate it, perhaps I can link to it later.

    (As an aside, at the end, even rabbiofberlin who was trying to defend girls learning Gemora, admitted that the strong consensus amongst all the Rishonim and Achronim were completely opposed to it.)



    What do you mean a girl is not allowed to learn Torah Shel BAAL Peh?

    One is not permitted to learn Torah Shebichsav WITHOUT Baal Peh.

    So how do you explain girls who learn Limudei koidesh in school without learning both?


    “A girl cannot learn any Torah Shel Baal Peh.” Do you include Rashi and the rest of Mikraos Gedolos (and the Netziv, Malbim, RSRH, etc.) on Tanach?


    Joseph, please post the source I am really struggling here.

    I understood the issue with learning Torah She Baal Pe as not being permissible for women in a “public” forum. Not that I totally get that either…

    I really want to confirm that there are different shittas with regard to a woman’s learning.


    Yes, there was a long discussion about it, and it was closed (for a reason!) Let’s keep to the topic at hand and not restart that controversy.

    Assuming that the boy in question is not opposed to women learning Gemara, it depends if she is clearly trying to show off for him or genuinely loves to learn. If the former, she needs to learn to relax and present a true picture of who she is. If the latter, he needs to appreciate that this is a part of her personality. Maybe he’s not looking for a “chavrusah”, in which case he does not have to keep dating the girl. But there are plenty of boys out there who will see the beauty in what she is doing and like her all the more for it.

    My father z”l was a baal teshuvah. He met my mother shortly after becoming religious and did not know a lot about Judaism. Since my maternal grandfather z”l was an Orthodox rabbi, my mother was knowledgeable enough to help my father with his learning (starting with teaching him to read Hebrew!) She told me once that when one of her friends from seminary heard what she was doing, the girl said to my mother, “I don’t know about this. I think the guy is supposed to know more than the girl.” I think a good portion of the “shidduch crisis” stems from this type of attitude. Why is it that the men need to be older, taller, smarter than the women? It’s like the pattern of male dominance is set up right from the start, so that there is no chance of the two being equal partners in a marriage.

    No doubt I will get all sorts of anti-feminist responses to this calling me names and declaring my views heretical, but I couldn’t hold back. This issue touches a personal nerve.



    Its whether its public or private. I’Y’H I’ll try to link to the post with many sources later. Its quite extensive and very clear, and is across the spectrum.


    Jfem, I would bet the farm that your mother felt your father was superlative in his middos and strength of character. Whether she felt he was better than she in that regard, I don’t know, but we know what counts.

    (So there you go, feedback that didn’t call you heretical 😉



    Marriage is not supposed to be equal partners. H-m created women and men differently and there is absolutely nothing you or anyone else can do about it. The only One you can argue with is H-m. It has nothing to do with being heretical or not. It has to do with logic. A man cannot become a woman and vice versa. Yes, a man can cook and clean (my husband does plenty of that) and a woman can learn/work but there are certain things that cannot change no matter what you do!

    lammed hey


    On a similar vein, I know many girls who refuse to go out on dates with the typical yeshivish guy, even though they themselves are yeshivish. The reason being that they feel they will look down at their husbands, as the girls have schooling and jobs, and they learn, do chessed and know Halacha.

    Most Yeshivish boys MAY have one of these, if they are “accomplished”.

    Perhaps the girls want to make sure the guys know something, and aren’t just being Yoshev in Yeshiva?



    I thought somebody might say that. Look, men and women are different; I’m not contesting that. But it’s a big leap to make from “different” to “unequal”. Marriage should be an equal partnership. Even if the man and woman have different roles (which, as you said, is not always the case) they are still equally important.



    Per our conversation, here are the sources (reposted from a previous thread over 2 months ago) prohibiting women from learning Torah She’Baal Peh (i.e. Gemorah):

    Masechtes Sotah Daf 21b on top, and Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah siman 246 sif 6.

    Shulchan Orach:

    “tzivu chaza”l shelo yilmad adam es bito torah mipnei sherov hanashim ein da’atan michuvanos l’hislamed u’motzios divrei torah l’divrei havai l’phi anius da’atan, amru chaza”l kol hamilamed es bito torah k’ilu milamda tiflus (now pay attention to this part, please) bameh divorim amurim torah she’bal peh, aval torah she’bicsav…”.

    And as attested to by the Gr”a (sham,os 24) and Chid”a in Birkei Yosef (sham,os 7) we pasken like R’Eliezer [and R’Yehoshua] as stated in the Rambam (hilchos talmud torah perek 1 halacha 13) and the Tur.

    There is a dispute in the Mishna Sotah 20a whether one is even allowed to teach Torah to women at all. The argument against the teaching of Torah to women states that if one does so, it is like teaching them Tiflus. Rashi comments that Tiflus means lechery, meaning the study of Torah will lead women to immoral sexual acts. Rashi then cites the famous story of Bruriah, one of the greatest female scholars in Jewish history to prove his point. One day, Bruriah ridiculed the Gemara (in Kidushin 80b) which states that that women are lightheaded. Rabbi Meir, her husband, ordered his student to test Bruriah’s strength and try to seduce his wife. Bruriah caved in and when she realized what she had done, she hung herself.

    Thus Rashi’s argument is that women’s minds are not meant for serious Torah learning. The Rambam agrees with Rashi’s take. Rambam also adds that when the chachamim had said, “He who teaches his daughter Torah, is as if he taught his daughter tiflus,”only applies to the oral law. The Rambam says that a man should not teach his daughters written law but if he does, it is not considered tiflus. The Shulchan Urach follows this approach of Rambam.

    Women Learning Gemara – THE PROHIBITION:

    The conclusion is that there are four areas within this law:

    1. Women may not learn the Oral Torah

    2. Women may learn the simple meaning of the Written Torah

    3. Women may not learn the Written Torah in depth

    4. Women must learn the laws that apply to them

    The poskim assume that included within “the laws that apply to them” is mussar that keep women them within the bounds of halachah. Even the Satmar Raebbe who as we shall see was very strict on these rules, permits women to learn mussar (VaYoel Moshe, Maamar Loshon Hakodesh, ch. 33). He does not, however, permit women to study even Rashi on the Torah because it contains Oral Torah. (Much more can be found in the 3rd part of Vayoel Moshe – “Maamar Loshon Hakodesh” – which is actually based on a teshuva that the Satmar Rebbe ZT’L wrote to Rav Pinchos Hirshprung ZT’L of Montreal.)

    Note that the suggestion that this prohibition emanates from some sort of misogynist rabbinic bias or historical circumstance is insulting and bordering on heresy.


    I would like to discuss this from a boys perspective. In response to the girl wanting to know whether her future chassan is just “sitting” in yeshiva: You can allow your father to do that and if he cant, find another male to “farher” him. Any average “sitter” can fool even the most learned girl- even those who learned in these gemarakup seminaries.

    To Jewish feminist: Your right men and women have equal roles in a marriage. The role for men is to either provide (yes they help out around the house) or learn, depending on who the man is. The women’s role is basicaly household needs and raising the children (w/ the mans help of course) or working so her husband can learn. Yes women can learn light material but my rosh said the geder is they should not learn as yeshiva bochurim do. REASON: logicaly the reason is b/c man is more logical and focuses better. Women are more emotional thus conflicting with the idea that toras emes can only come without biasm. Ergo women can focus and pay att to everything around them and men can’t (as well). And even for those who say im diff. g’zunt ah heyt. Lo plug. B/c its not why they cant learn rather you see a proof from the fact that are mids work differently are tafkidim are different. With that in mind i would still love to marry someone who enjoys nice light torahdika convos at our shabbos table BH.


    please, clarify that if I read this and try to absorb it all, does this mean I am learning gemora!!!

    OH NO!


    definatley a chavrusah


    Joseph, shtark!


    Supposedly, there is an Igros Moshe on this topic, but i don’t know where. Can you please enlighten the oilom?


    smalltowngirl, You mentioned earlier you were struggling. Do the numerous sources help you?

    (bigmo: nisht meina pshat!)


    J Fem,

    Besides looking at it from a halachic point of view, the secular world is struggling with the same issue. Women refer to it as the “H BOMB” (Harvard). Meaning that some women are trying to hide the fact that they have a degree from Harvard so as to not turn off their date. There was also a piece about the h bomb on 60 minutes. There is a great book about it by NYT columnist Maureen Dowd called “Are Men Necessary?”


    i think that a womans role in a relationship is to wake her husband up for davening, remind him of his chavruses, however, not to be too overbearing


    ya know, I am still struggling, I feel like you are genuine in your concern and I do appreciate your kindness. I will ponder…

    I struggle because as a baalas teshuva I did not have the education that so many take for granted. I struggle because I hear so many contrasting opinions. I struggle because I thirst for knowledge and so many times when I ask a shaila I am not give the complete answer.

    WHEW! now we are way off of topic, my appologies.


    Even if there is a heter for a girl to learn gemera in private, wouldn’t a date be considered public?

    And back to the great point brought up by intelligent in post #3, I think the girl’s parents being too midayaik in how the boy learns is MUCH more of a problem. Shouldn’t you care about the MIDDOS of the boy that your daughter may spend the rest of her life with ?!

    As the too-true line goes, are you looking for a husband for your daughter, or a chavrusa?!


    look in sotah 20a


    This must be like groudhog day….the same discussion again….

    sjsnyc- It is a bit too late to quote other sources than Joseph and it is true that, in general, the early Halachic authorities frowned o mwomen who leanred “torah she ball peh”. That much, i wil ladmit 9to joseph’s delight) but I will not admit that it is an irrevocable issur. The exact loshon is ‘ke-ilo lomdo tiflus’,as he would teach her “tiflus” (it is not clear what tiflus means). There is no outright “Issur” -prohibition. If I have time in the next days, I’ll review Joseph’s sources (again!) and add my two (poor) cents!



    I am positive I posted this (megilla) last night and it’s not here! 🙁

    Maybe I accidentally added it to an other thread…

    You want husband and wife to have equal roles. I will tell you that, that should not and will not happen. Men and women are inherently different and will therefore automatically fall into different roles. That is not because they are trained to do that but because they are naturally fit for their roles. Hashem made them each the way they are and no human being can change that even if it bothers you. That is why they will not change roles. Why they should not change roles is because they each have different needs and it would not be fair for a wife to be treated according to the way her husband would like to be treated and vice versa.

    This example, although a bit silly, might help you understand what I mean:

    Imagine a woman who has two sons, one who is blind and one who is deaf. If she were to treat them equally she would make the one who’s blind learn sign language because the deaf one does and make the deaf one learn braille so he could be like his blind brother. Or maybe she would say that neither should learn any because the other does not learn it. This would be equal but not fair! They each have different needs and need to be treated accordingly. So too a man and woman have different needs and need to be treated accordingly.

    I am not pretending to be an expert in this area, but based on my limited knowledge as well as my common sense. This seems very clear to me.


    gemorah I do understand might be alittle weird, but I think it is very normal for a girl to say a little peice of torah she once heard. she should not hold back who she is for what he might think. The same way I would share something I heard with a friend why not a date? especially if this person is a potential person that will be rasiing your kids and having to build a BNB together


    I’m happy I have different Rabbis than many people seem to here – after all, I would find Judaism very suspicious if I wasnt able to learn a large portion of where halacha comes from. How do I know I can trust what the men say? After all, it could be a big conspiracy by men to force women to do something.

    (I’m NOT saying I actually believe that, but if I werent able to learn gemara or other torah shebaal peh it would be very suspicious to me)


    Now that you have different Rabbis, do you believe that there is no conspiracy? Then you can stop trying to learn it all on your own.


    to:jd sayslol, the last thing a bochur wants to date is a chavrusa


    Someone who can really imagine such a thing, probably has other issues as well… Can you really imagine, 50% of the (Jewish) population knowing something and not one woman would find out!?! Besides, men can repeat Gemaras here and there to women!


    Joseph, your sources are incomplete. You quoted R’ Eliezer’s opinion from Sotah, but left out Ben Azzai’s. Ben Azzai states that a man is required to teach his daughter Torah She’Baal Peh.

    The issue is not as clear-cut as you make it out to be. Even the Rambam, who seems to deal harshly with women who learn Torah She’Baal Peh, states that they will receive a reward for their learning (albeit less than a man’s reward.) Where do you ever see someone receive a reward for something that is prohibited? That is completely counter-intuitive, and the only logical answer is that the Rambam did not issue an actual prohibition. In fact, the Perisha suggests that the Rambam was against women being taught Torah She’Baal Peh by their fathers, not women learning it independently. (This is in the majority of cases- the Perisha states that tiflut does not apply for a grown woman who has demonstrated herself to be more grounded than most women. Such a serious-minded woman who deviates from the “rov hanashim” to which Rambam refers may be taught Torah She’Baal Peh even by her father.)

    R’ Mayer Twersky concurs, stating that in the case of women who learn Torah She’Baal Peh from their fathers, a problem arises because the Torah is “imposed upon women. Study which is not self-initiated is especially vulnerable to inadvertent distortion and frivolous trivialization.” It is exactly this type of “frivolous trivialization” to which the Rambam objects, and R’ Twersky suggests that self-initiated study does away with the problem. (Also note that the Rambam makes no mention of prohibiting women to be taught by men who are not their fathers.)

    This view is also consistent with the Talmud Yerushalmi, which states (Ketuvot 2:10) that one should not teach Torah to a slave, but he is permitted to learn on his own. (Women are often grouped with slaves and minors in halachic matters.) In Succah 2:1, we see that the slave Tavi was even allowed to sit underneath the table in the succah and listen to the Sages discussing Torah. Therefore, women may be present while men learn and can absorb material in this passive way.

    The Sefer Ma’ayan Ganim makes an important distinction about the sugya in Sotah:

    “What was said in Sotah 20a, ‘anyone who teaches his daughter Torah is as if he has taught her tiflut’, perhaps applied when the father taught her when she was a child…However, women whose hearts prompt them to approach the labor of Hashem through conscious choice of the good- it is incumbent on the scholars of their generation to praise and cherish them, to organize and strengthen them.”

    Also, see Nedarim 35b, where the case is given of a man who has sworn not to receive benefit from another. This “other” is forbidden to teach him Torah, as this would constitute benefit, but is permitted to teach Torah to his sons and daughters.

    Finally, let’s look at the Rambam’s wording. “Tzivu hachachamim,” he writes- the Sages commanded. Everywhere in the Mishneh Torah where this wording is used, it does not constitute an actual issur v’heter, but connotes a general exhortation of what the Rambam believes to be desirable behavior. Never in the Rambam’s writing does “tzivu hachachamim” precede an actual statement of halacha. (Also note that R’ Eliezer’s wording does not constitute an actual prohibition either!)

    Even if you hold by the opinions that do prohibit women from learning Torah She’Baal Peh, the Talmud may not fall into this category. The Rosh rules that it is a positive commandment to write Sifrei Torah as well as Mishnah, Gemara, and books of Rashi commentary. (There is disagreement on whether or not this still applies to Sifrei Torah- but all agree that it applies to the other books.) How can this be so, since it says in Gittin 60b that it is forbidden to transcribe the oral tradition? It must be that when the Talmud was written down, it acquired the status of Torah She’Bichtav and ceased to exist as Torah She’Baal Peh. Therefore, men who teach their daughters Talmud are not teaching them tiflut.



    You were moida in a previous thread (and this is a direct quote from you) “I freely admit that the preponderance of opinions is in your favoir as far as torah shebaal peh for women. this is evident from the Poskim you brought down.” in response to the various sources quoted regarding women and Torah Sh’Baal Peh.

    Regarding the meaning of Tiflus, like the post on the previous page mentions: Rashi comments that Tiflus means lechery, meaning the study of Torah will lead women to immoral sexual acts.

    And here are some additional sources regarding this issue, that were quoted on a previous thread:

    Aruch Hashulchan

    We have never taught women from a book, nor have we ever heard people actually do so. Rather every mother teaches her daughter well-known rules women should know.

    Sefer Hachasidim

    One should teach his daughters practical law – not because there is a requirement for them to learn, but so that they should know the laws. Once they know the laws, there is no need for them to learn any more.

    Torah Temimah (R. Boruch Epstein, 12th century)

    Girls do not have the intellectual stability and are, therefore, unable to make profound inquries with a sharp mind and appreciate the depth of the Torah. It is possible thay by using their own minds, they will transgress the Torah.

    Tur (Yoreh Deah 246, 15)

    Most women’s minds are not geared toward being taught, but if she had begun to study properly herself, not making Torah into foolishness, she is no longer like most women and she is rewarded…


    WOW- I am learning more on this website than in Bais hamedrash !!

    Actually, joseph, I know the Aruch Hashulchan. The Torah Temimah is from his son , R’boruch Epstein and written in the early 20th century- yours(12th)must be a typo.

    I have not seen the sefer Chassidim but the Tur you bring down actually vitiates against you.As far as the menaing of tiflus- i knwo the rashi but other translations are equally valid. (tiflus from the word “toful” unimportant or less important thing)

    I do admit that I said- and still say- that the majority of poskim FROWN upon women learning gemoro.

    All I have claimed is that there is no real “issur”-prohibition to do this. Otherwise why didn’t the gemoro say “ossur lilmod es bittoi torah”? Neither do the Rambam and the other Poskim use the loshon “ossur’. That was my point all the time. there is a big difference between issur and “eitzah toivah”.

    Now to the posting of ‘feminsit02″.

    I am kind of amazed at that very interesting posting.If these are her own words and research, I stand in awe.(My doubts about the authorship center mainly about the quote from the Jerushalmi-scarcely the everyday learning of an average baal habayis) Whoever did the research, it is thorough and I actually quoted this Perisha to Joseph in another posting. Whatever the source, it encapsulates the reasons why some Poskim do allow women to learn Torah sheba-al peh.

    So- Joseph- you surely will do as you have been taught and some others will hnalde this matter otherwise.


    this joseph is a reaLLY SHTARK GUY


    if a girl is trying to impress me she might be desprate but i do not mine it mean she is well round it but she should not be learn gemarh like boys but to now about some stuff is okay


    Wow guys! I’m feeling like a total Am Ha’artez here. The torah is great. Keep it coming!

    This site is really living up to it’s name!!!


    avithedemon: keep up the shtrak learning


    Avi,PLEASE PLEASE create a a new screen name AviTheTzaddik! The one you uses doesn’t ”pas” for a tzaddik like you.

    Will Hill

    rabbiofberlin: You are merely engaging in your own conjecture. Please reference a specific mekor or psak that states a woman may learn Gemora. I fear you have none

    jewish02: We pasken with R’ Eliezer. In any event, I cannot discuss these Gemoras with you in depth, as you are a woman. P.S. Which database did you pull these sources from?

    Will Hill

    rob: Do you have even a SINGLE source (mekor or psak din) that clearly is matir Gemorah learning for women? I think not. Your above comments are merely YOUR own CONJECTURE. None of them say outright it is permissible, meanwhile I see you have been quoted MANY sources which openly & clearly state it is IMPERMISSIBLE.

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 343 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.