February 12, 2009 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #1217891areivimzehlazehParticipant
so where are all the engagements? (don’t they have very chassidish boys in BMG too?)February 12, 2009 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #1217892
areivimzehlazeh: maybe the place to looks for the engagements is on onlysimchas or by the simhos on the home page!!!February 13, 2009 12:43 am at 12:43 am #1217893qwertyuiopMember
asdfghjkl: don’t you remember, we aren’t allowed on onlysimchas, because of the pictures.$ 🙂February 13, 2009 2:40 am at 2:40 am #1217894kiruvwifeMember
freezer rule? enlighten me please…although I can extrapolate the true meaning of this I want to be sure….and how long do they have to thaw?February 13, 2009 5:04 am at 5:04 am #1217896
qwertyuiop: your right, my bad!!!
kiruvwife: the BMG new guys that start in the elul zman, need to wait till tu bishvat to start going out!!!February 13, 2009 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #1217897
Famous joke, perhaps a nit shein:
Q- What’s the difference between a goseis and a Lakewood guy?
A- the goseis goes from life support to the freezer, while the Lakewood guy goes from the freezer to life support!February 13, 2009 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #1217898kiruvwifeMember
so to sum this all up, I hope that a lakewood boy coming out of the freezer has already established for himself a solid chavrusa, and would be looking to date a girl. I can’t imagine any bochur wanting to marry a girl who will be his chavrusa–two distinct separate relationships, as they should be.February 15, 2009 1:39 am at 1:39 am #1217899
kiruvwife: that is correct!!!
Jothar: i’ve heard that one, it’s really funny!!!February 15, 2009 7:15 am at 7:15 am #1217900A. NuranParticipant
Oy. loyalyid, Joseph and some of the rest of you, please listen to what you’re saying.
“It’s disgusting for a girl to be intelligent and informed, let alone interested in what I’m interested in. It’s her job to adore me for my learning and mine to act superior to her.”
I’ll let you in on a secret, boys. Women like to be respected and taken seriously. They want men who are strong and masculine. They don’t want overbearing tyrants who expect worship and obedience. That is exactly what you guys sound like. Maybe your real character doesn’t come across well in written form. Maybe. I’m just saying honestly and from the heart how it sounds.
As far as that goes, my wife is at least as intelligent as I am. Her accomplishments are in different areas but are just as worthy of respect. And I know for a fact that I can trust her with my life, because I have on a regular basis from belaying me on a rope to wading in and pulling off the one who was whanging my head off the concrete. She’s a woman of valor, and her worth really is greater than rubies. You don’t get blessed like that if you expect flattery and subservience from someone you think of as an inferior.February 15, 2009 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #1217901BogenParticipant
A. Nuran, huh? Our Torah is eternal. Feminism doesn’t fit into Yiddishkeit.February 15, 2009 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #1217902
A. Nuran: that is real nice!!!!February 15, 2009 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #1217903ZalmanParticipant
A Nuran, it is applaudable that you treat your spouse with respect, and you should treat other Yidden with the same respect when they quote Torah sources and not be angered at your fellow Jew when they quote a Torah source you fail to understand or like. Ad hominems never work.February 15, 2009 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #1217904nossondMember
I’ll put in my two cents without the advantage of reading all the posts in this thread.
I think that a girl talking yeshivish is a shtick. I doubt that there is much toichen behind it. I doubt that most boys have toichen behind it. I see it as harmless, but some boys will like it and some won’t. In the end, you have to find someone who you can relate to. If the shticky talk breaks down some barriers to communication, then it’s a good thing. On dates, both sides want to impress. Such talk is the girl’s way of showing that she can relate to what is chashuv to the boy. Keep in mind that this kind of talk will probably end either right after the wedding or as soon as the reality of life hits both of you like a ton of bricks. So enjoy it for as long as it lasts.
If, by chance, there is toichen behind the girl’s talk, that’s another story. A special boy, who is confident in himself, will see it as an advantage. Others may get scared off.February 16, 2009 12:19 am at 12:19 am #1217905
It could be the girl is doing it because she thinks that’s what the guys want.
The passuk in Bereishis says, according to the meforshim, that man and woman were originally created as one entity and then separated. Each is a half of a whole. Man has chochma yeseira, woman has bina yeseira. Tough to say any half is inferior to the other. while the man is supposed to be the dominant role, That doesn’t imply actual inferiority. A Mamzer talmid chochom is better than a kohen gadol am haaretz, even though the Kohen Gadol gets more kavod and is viewed on a higher level. A Yisroel has the same “olam haba” potential as a Kohen. A Beinoni can earn the same olam haba as an ilui, even though the ilui gets more kavod, better shidduchim, and better positions. Olam haba has nothing to do with the roles of olam hazeh.February 16, 2009 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #1217906
More on women learning:
Rav Nosson Kaminetzky (always interesting and informative, whether or not you agree with his views )gave a lecture at the RIETS kollel in Israel, and talked about women learning. He quoted this:
was speaking about the Chafetz-Chaim and explaining how it was that in his Likutei Halakhos on Sotah 21 he says that the rules for what women may learn only applied “bazmanim shelphonainu (in earlier times)”, but now the situation is different and “it is certainly a great mitzvah to teach them etc.” – and he offers a program of what to teach women.
I will try hunting down the source and reading it myself. The rule for quoted sources is “kabdeihu vechashdeihu”, ie look it up yourself to make sure that it was quoted fully and accurately, not because you don’t trust the guy quoting it as much as there are sometimes multiple interpretations of the same paragraph.February 16, 2009 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #1217907
Listening now to the “off-the-cuff” lecture from Rav Nosson Kaminetzky.
The wife of Rav Aharon Kotler ZT”L used to learn gemara.February 17, 2009 12:21 am at 12:21 am #1217908
I believe the main issur is formally teaching Gemora to them. (As in a class, as opposed to an exceptional yochid. The ???”?, Tuv Ayin, 4 holds such a yochid can be taught [not sure if its referring to baal peh in general or even Gemorah]. But others disagree with the ???”?, saying even a yochid shouldn’t learn it.)
Is Rav Nosson considered part of the Chareidi world or the YU world? YU has their own liberalized shittos, as classes teaching women Gemorah. (Which has no source prior to Rav Yosef B. Soloveitchek.)February 17, 2009 3:06 am at 3:06 am #1217909
Joseph, the famous Artscroll biography on Reb Yaakov Keminetzky ZT”L by jonathan Rosenblum came for the most part from the research of Reb Nosson Kaminetsky. I do not know how he’s viewed by the “oilam goilam”, but I do know that Rav Shmuel Kaminetky Shlit”a has his brother’s book freely available for perusal in his house. I see Rav shmuel Kaminetzky Shlit”a in the Yated all the time, and to get your picture in the Yated center pages you need to be a recognized gadol, a Rebbe, or a gvir. The hakdama to the 8th volume of igros moshe mentions that Reb Moshe Feinstein’s great grandmother attended a gemara shiur with the Tzemach Tzedek. She sat in the back. Reb Itzele Volozhin’s daughter was well-learned, as the Torah Temimah writes in his Mekor Baruch. Last time I checked, all yeshivish mesoras went back to Volozhin. Finally, RNK has a source from an eyewitness that Rav Aharon Kotler’s wife learned gemara. No matter how he’s viewed, it’s not an opinion- it’s an eyewitness account.
It is clear that the accepted psak for generations was that teaching them Torah is like teaching them tiflus. It is clear from the Chofetz chaim that something has changed, although he does not say to teach them gemara. It is also clear that yechidos learned gemara (1st wife of Netziv, grandmother of Reb Moshe Feinstein ZT”L, wife of Reb Aharon kotler ZT”L. Nobody in the velt (except Rav YB Soloveitchik) mattirs directly teaching women gemara, except out of town as part of a joint class. But the best seminaries in Israel for the top girls live on the edge here. They’re not learning Reb Chaims but they are learning heavy intellectual machshava material (Rambans, Maharals, Michtav Me’eliyahu, etc) which can be considered Torah SheBaal Peh.
I assume the same Reb Moshe by women’s Tzitzis would apply here as well- if it’s done lesheim shamayim, it’s ok for yechidos. If it’s done for rebellion, then it’s Torah Lekanter and is an aveirah chamurah.
According to many shitos in Hilchos shechita, nashim daatan kalos just means that they get squeamish.
True story from a friend of mine who now runs his own place- one year a yeshiva was learning Yevamos. The wife of an avreich asked him to explain what he’s learning. He starts explaining the cases in yevamos he was learning. Every case in Yevamos had a high tragic body count, and soon his wife started crying. This guy couldn’t believe it, and told my friend about it. My friend started laughing, assuming his wife was tougher than that. So he comes home and tells his wife the story, laughing at the squeamishness of the first guy’s wife. Soon enough, his wife’s crying too, and my friend says “Never mind”.February 17, 2009 3:47 am at 3:47 am #1217910
the reid is Rashi’s daughters were well-learned too, and even wrote some of the Rashis (eg the end of pesachim).
To be clear, I’m not advocating teaching women gemara in the beis Yaakovs. Reb Moshe ZT”L clearly paskened against it, and he was the poseik hador- despite the story with his great-grandmother. But if a women decides to learn Gemara on her own, there is no need to stop her, as per the Prisha 246:16. I’m not sure whose psak the top seminaries ( the ones that produce the wives for the best bachurim in Lakewood) are following, but it does seem to be closer to Rav Soloveitchik than Reb Moshe. The Torah Temimah’s Mekor Baruch lists a bunch of women who were as learned as his aunt, although since they put the abridged translation in cheirem the original may have fallen out of favor. In other words, the issue isn’t as cut-and-dried as it looks, although I wouldn’t argue on Reb Moshe ZT”L. The top seminaries seem to be, though. I would love to know their mekor.
I’m still partial to Rabbi Orlovsky’s explanation- to get to the bottom of things in the gemara, you need to be logically argumentative, which doesn’t come easily to most women. And everyone agrees that women need to learn the laws relating to them- Shabbos, challah, etc. The question is, in today’s highly polarized world, can a woman choose to learn Gemara on her own in a non-politicized way, or is it automatically like women’s tzitzis?
All agree that a man and woman should learn halachos together, and should learn musar together. So they can be chavrusos even without violating the stimas hagedolim.February 17, 2009 4:19 am at 4:19 am #1217911
An interesting article based on Rav Elyashiv Shlit”a on what changed with women learning. This “skirts” the issue, but it does explain things very well.
After Moshe warned Paroh about Makas Arbeh, Paroh says (Bo 10:11), “Lichu Na HaGvarim V’Ivdu Es Hashem”, let the men folk go and serve Hashem, while the women and children remain behind. Rav Elyashiv says (Divrei Agada) that Paroh knew that if the women remain tied into the culture of Mitzrayim, the men can do all the avodah they want. As soon as they come back they will follow the women, and all will be lost.
He brings a Medrash (Bereishis Rabba 17:7) that drives home the point. The Medrash speaks of a childless couple who were both very pious people. They decided that since they were not producing any servants of Hashem, it is best that they divorce and each marry someone else, hopefully producing children. The man married a wicked lady and he himself became a Rasha. The woman married a wicked man but he became a tzaddik.
There was conference of Rabbonim after the Russian revolution, says Rav Elyashiv, where there was a proposal raised to create a curriculum for girls education. Many Rabbonim protested based on the words of Chazal who say not to teach your daughters torah. Rav Eliezer Rabinowitz from Minsk stood up and asked, how can you teach torah to someone who wants to convert if he is not yet Jewish? The obvious answer is that unless you teach him he cannot start becoming Jewish. Similarly with the girls. When there were vibrant Jewish homes they did not need to learn torah but times had changed and without torah they had no chance, and they would drag the boys down as well.
It is clear from here that the girls lead the way. However, don’t forget them because the future of our wonderful sons hang in the balance. What exactly they should be learning is a subject of great debate, and obviously the goal is Yiras Shamayim and not lomdus. Because when they come back from shteiging in Yeshiva there needs to be a special girl waiting for them or else… The girls are the hope and future of Klal Yisroel.
Based on this, I can answer my own question, actually. the machshava they learn may be full of torah sheba’al peh, but the goal is yiras shamayim not lomdus, and this gives them an intellectual outlet AND gives them yiras shomayim.February 17, 2009 1:37 pm at 1:37 pm #1217912
Boys’ schools offer Gemara prep at a young age – flash cards, mishnayos from third/fourth grade (chutz laaretz), etc. The whole conditioning and prep is different. It’s a bit different from a hundred or so years ago when girls could wander into a bais medrash, or heard it in the home on a regular basis.February 17, 2009 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #1217913SJSinNYCMember
Is Rav Nosson considered part of the Chareidi world or the YU world? YU has their own liberalized shittos, as classes teaching women Gemorah. (Which has no source prior to Rav Yosef B. Soloveitchek.)
I have no idea what the halachic source is – I am wondering if maybe its because of the voluntary nature of these classes? I went to Stern for a year and most girls did not take gemara classes – only those that really wanted to, did.
If you teach girls gemara in elementary or high school, that could be tiflus because you are forcing it on some girls who have no interest.February 17, 2009 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #1217914
Rav Nosson kaminetzky quoted a Mahari”l who said that the issur against teaching women Torah was an “eis laasos”, a temporary measure. He also quoted his father who said that now that girls learn secular studies, they NEED to learn Torah to counteract the poison of secular studies. To be clear, there is no indication that this changes even the more severe level, torah shebaal peh. But I would love to know what fig leaf the seminaries are using, if “yiras shomayim” is the heter to broaden the allowance, or if it’s simple competition.February 17, 2009 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #1217915
What does seem to be clear is that the difference between the seminaries and Rav Soloveitchik is more degree than essence. The metzius changed, and women need to be taught torah to keep them frum. The only question is how far the need to teach women extends. I don’t pasken like Rav Soloveitchik, but the difference between his views on it and the views of the top seminaries in Eretz Yisroel are not as wiidely divergent as I first thought.February 18, 2009 12:41 am at 12:41 am #1217916Will HillParticipant
Jothar, In YU (as well as their offshoot high schools) they teach them Gemorah mamish (or purport to anyways). That is FAR FAR off base from how the Litvisha and Chasidisha Gedolim allow or practice in the Bais Yaakov’s.February 18, 2009 1:34 am at 1:34 am #1217917
I’m referring to the elite seminaries in Israel, where the brightest of the bright frum girls go. They’re not shteiging over takfu cohen, but a lot of the machshava quotes heavily from Torah shebaal peh, including Gemara and zohar. Gemara is the line that most of them don’t cross over, but it’s almost semantics considering how far they’re going with Torah Shebaal Peh. The dividing line given in shulchan aruch (pre-Chofetz Chaim) is Torah shebiksav vs. torah shebaal peh. The chofetz chaim allowed torah shebiksav, dinim and mussar. The line, however, gets blurred with these seminaries. There is more to torah shebaal peh than just gemara. If I recall correctly, those who are makpid on learning torah shebiksav at night are allowed to learn Ramban and Rashi because they’re torah shebaal peh. Furthermore, my wife learned Maharal in seminary. I’ll check up the Igros tonight, along with the original likutei halachos if I can hunt it down. Again, I’m not advocating teaching gemara to girls, although if they want to learn it on their own, then halacha clearly allows it.February 18, 2009 4:36 am at 4:36 am #1217918AshreinuParticipant
Jothar – Wow. Thanks for your thought-out analysis and thoughts on this topic. It’s been the MOST “source”ful in the CR history, I beleive. You so went/attend YU or RIETS. (?)February 18, 2009 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #1217919
I had a quick hour last night to go to the beis midrash, so I had to make it quick. I had to pay a babysitter just to get away to the beis midrash- “meimeinu bekesef shasinu”. I think I got it clear though.
There is an argument in Sotah is women should be taught Torah or not. The poskim follow the view that they should not. There is a split made between Torah shebiksav and Torah shebaal peh. According to the most common reading, torah shebaal peh is tiflus, Torah shebiksav is not but shouldn’t be taught anyway. The Prisha in the Tur says that a woman is allowed to decide on her own to learn, because it shows she’s extraordinary. The Taz proves from the gemara in chagiga 3a about hakhel, the men “lilmod” and the women “lishmoa”, that women can learn the pashut pshat in mikra but shoudl not delve too deeply into the havana, because that is torah shebaal peh. The likutei halachos by sotah 21a says that nowadays, women need to learn to keep them frum, since the shtetl days of reinforced frumkeit are gone. He says tanach, mussar, pirkei avos. Reb Moshe clearly says no mishnayos except pirkei avos, and kol shekein no gemara.
That said, women are allowed to learn on their own. The wife of Reb Isser Zalman Meltzer was known to have been a big lamdanis, and helped her husband write his seforim. it thus makes sense that his daughter, Rebbetzin Kotler, would be the same way.
Rav Zalman Sorotzkin in Moznaim Lemishpat siman 42 (disclaimer- I didn’t have enough time to hunt this down myself) allows Torah shebaal peh but just the maskanah, not shakla vetarya.
Bottom line: Women are allowed to learn on their own. According to most poskim, men shouldn’t teach them Torah shebaal Peh. the Taz makes it clear that deep havana in mikra is torah shebaal Peh, which makes Rambans the same thing as Gemara. While they aren’t teaching gemara, they clearly are teaching the girls torah shebaal peh- tiflus. The only heter I hear for seminaries is that of Rav Zalman Sorotzkin, which I didn’t read yet.
But I assume most men don’t want a chavrusa, as it challenges their self-worth.February 18, 2009 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #1217920
Ashreinu- I did not attend RIETS. I was in a “middle ground” yeshiva- in between YU and Lakewood. Emes is emes, no matter what yeshiva you attend.February 18, 2009 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #1217921
I give props to Joseph- his good sources help inspire me to find other good sources- a true “kinas sofrim tarbeh chochma”.It’s kinas sofrim, but not lekanter. Joseph has a big cheilek in my nightly Limud Torah, and helps me get emes by challenging my opinions. In other words, he’s my chavrusa, not my enemy, even though we’re usually arguing. There are times that I will argue on him just for the sake of playing Satan’s advocate, in order to achieve ravcha shmaatza, even if my real views may be different. Groyse shkoyach, Joseph!February 19, 2009 1:45 am at 1:45 am #1217922
Jothar, a) Yasher koach. b) In essence (it seems to me) we agree more often then not (perhaps though we talk more about the nots, that the agreed) c) “my” sources are not mine, but from others who shared them or taught them to me.February 19, 2009 5:25 am at 5:25 am #1217923
Ames, arguing is EXACTLY how Torah shebaal peh is meant to be done. Enough “vahev basufah”. Back to the arguing!
I hunted down tonight a shearim metzuyanim behalacha, one of the best sefarim for bekiyus and “reid” on a topic. It was one of my best friends while learning chullin for semicha in my pre-balabos days.
He quotes a Shu”t Maharshal siman 29 that his grandmother used to teach big rabbanim and gedolim from behind a curtain for many years. I don’t think we’re arguing about this, but good to know nevertheless
In Sefer Chassidim 313, he defines tiflus as “omek talmud”, “taamei mitzvos”, and “sodei torah”. This does shtim with the Taz. It looks like from the likutei halachos that only one level was permitted, ie the lower level of torah shebiksav. Torah shebaal peh was not permitted except for mussar. Based on everything, the following would be assur even today to teach women unless we mattir even torah shebaal peh based on “eis laasos”:
1. Mishnayos and Gemara (Sefer Chassidim, Reb Moshe ZT”L);
2. Ramban on Chumash (Taz, sefer Chassidim);
3. Maharal, since “sodei torah” ( sefer Chassidim)
Seminaries avoid #1 like the plague. #2 and #3 are widespread among all seminaries, despite the fact that they’re torah shebaal peh. Clearly they have a heter, since they get the daughters of the best rabbonim. So clearly they have a heter for Torah Shebaal Peh.February 22, 2009 5:30 am at 5:30 am #1217924labochurMember
Joseph- you seem to know alot about this topic- maybe you could help me out. I looked up the Rambam and was bothered about the Lashon of that a father is like teaching Tiflus. I looked up the Frankel’s mafteach and looked up R’ Shach on that Rambam and he seemed to say- I think- that davka a father but not for her on her own. And it seems like he’s reffering to Torah Shebaal Peh. Please tell me if I learnt up R’ Shach wrong- his loshon wasn’t so clear to me- or just that others are cholek on him, and who are the cholkim. Thanks in advance!February 22, 2009 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1217925
Jothar, want to try to answer labochur? labochur, it seems to me you’re understanding is correct. That is being said without me having the benefit to look at it inside (being I’ll be busy for a bit now.)February 22, 2009 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #1217926anon for thisParticipant
You’ve mentioned the Mahara’l being taught in seminaries. Is it really taught in most seminaries, or just in one seminary in particular? I know that in the seminary I attended many years ago, we did learn Mahara’l, but I thought this was because the Mahara’l was of particular importance to a close relative of the headmistress. I didn’t know it was common in most seminaries.February 22, 2009 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #1217927
labochur, Rav Shach is based on the Prisha on the Tur in siman 246, which, as far as I understand, nobody argues on. The shearim metzuyanim behalacha brings down many examples of learned women, as does the Torah temimah in his Mekor Baruch.February 22, 2009 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #1217928
Anon, I have heard it’s taught in more than just one seminary. However, I Baruch Hashem am ignorant of the matzav in most seminaries- al tarbeh sicha im isha prevents me from clarifying the exact metzius in the top seminaries, but I’ve spoken to friends with wives from different seminaries who tell me their wives learned Maharal. They all learn Ramban, which, aaccording to the Taz, is clearly Torah shebaal peh as it’s more than basic pshat.February 23, 2009 1:26 am at 1:26 am #1217929
Do you mean Ramban as in mikraos gedolos? In general BY high schools learn all the meforshim inside (I don’t mean every single one on every single pasuk) a mikraos gedolos. I did, in my out of town, not as academic as it is now, BY 30 years ago.February 23, 2009 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #1217930
Tzippi, bingo.February 23, 2009 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #1217931
30 years ago, in BY, a very chashuve mechanaches, whose husband was a very chashuve mashgiach,regularly spent 2 weeks with a senior high class on a seminal Ramban about the makkos. I never realized how controversial Rebbetzin X was…February 23, 2009 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #1217932
And a P.S. having done some teaching and prep: to teach Chumash well, not just skills but heart and depth, how can a mechanaches not prepare Ramban?February 23, 2009 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #1217933
Because depth= torah shebaal peh. And if that’s muttar, then gemara is as well. If Gemara isn’t muttar, then Rambans shouldn’t be as well.February 23, 2009 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #1217934JustAGirlMember
I am not dating “learning” guys, but I expect them to do all in their power that they don’t miss a minyan. Especially in Brooklyn where you can catch in minyan @ Landau’s any time of the day!
Girls should not talk in gemara language, and honestly if a guy would talk divrei torah the whole time, I’d get bored. Sorry, but I’m a real person. Not some mythical Bais Yaakov creature.February 23, 2009 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #1217935
Jothar, does that mean Rashi too? I don’t see why not.
Isn’t there a qualitative difference between gemara and these other examples of Torah she’beal peh? When most people think of ameilus b’Torah, v’hagisa bo, etc., they think of gemara. I invite someone who gets what I’m saying to clarify this qualitative difference. One important angle is the mindset and hachana necessary to truly learn gemara well.
Something else: I just read a fascinating article in an old Mishpacha about R. Y. Y. Reinman (aka Avner Gold) who talks about learning gemara with Amiel Hirsch. Hirsch was exhiliarated by their learning session, yet found it not much more than an intellectual pursuit. R. Reinman, of course, “got it.” There is a soul connection in learning gemara that I know that I as a woman (and as the woman I am) can’t get. (At least I appreciate it ;-)I need the l’maaseh, and as many loose ends tied up as possible. I understand that men get so much more, and something very different out of it, and joyfully facilitate my husband’s and sons’ learning.
I had a friend who taught in Skver and she herself was able to use whatever she needed to prepare but she couldn’t bring in texts with those mefarshim.February 23, 2009 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #1217936
Tzippi, it could be there is such a chiluk. I just can’t find a mekor for it anywhere.February 24, 2009 12:03 am at 12:03 am #1217937labochurMember
Jothar, tell me if I got this clear. Men could only teach them maskanos. The whole gemara and other chumash meforshim like Ramban can only be taught by women or men out of town. Also, when R’ Moshe paskined no mishnayos, was that only for men to teach it or for them to learn by themselves also?February 24, 2009 2:06 am at 2:06 am #1217938
labochur, I don’t have it clear either. I’m also a balabos not a poseik, meaning my opinion counts for nothing- ask your local Orthodox Rabbi, which I am not.
Rav Zalmon Sorotzkin, in a sefer so obscure I can’t hunt it down, says that you can teach them maskanos. It sounds like torah shebaal peh, but more than dinim (which are muttar according all). But I want to see it inside.
All agree women are allowed to learn whatever they want on their own- Prisha on the tur based on the Rambam.
Most seminaries do not allow gemara but do allow Ramban on chumash. Again, this sounds like Torah shebaal peh, and it’s a stretch to read that into the Chofetz chaim’s likutei halachos. One of my learned friends in klei kodesh claims that the Ramban is part of yiras shomayim, which is muttar, and gemara isn’t. I don’t hear it, but it must be what the seminaries are following, unless there is another heter I’m not aware of.February 24, 2009 1:05 pm at 1:05 pm #1217940David S.Member
Joseph, the Aruch HaShulchan says before quoting the Gemara, that “Even though they recieve a reward: (quote from Sotah 20a, followed by Sotah 21b, which is the phrase about “one who teaches his daughter Torah (shebaal peh) it is as if he is teaching her matters of transgression,) connotating that it is surely unadvised for one to teach his daughter Gemara, but if one’s daughter learns Gemara, she still gets a reward. The Aruch HaShulchan says that “Because their minds are ??, and they find in the Torah meaningless matters, because their minds are inadequate (for Torah study, even though they get a reward). But like most poskim, the Aruch HaShulchan rules that one’s daughter can learn Torah Shebichsav. In the Tur it says the opposite of what the Shulchan Oruch says, that Torah shebaal peh is not tiflus, and Torah shebichsav is. The Birkei Yosef notes that it is most probably a printer’s error.
I looked in the Shach and the Taz, and they both say that one’s daughter should not learn Torah shebaal peh, the Taz in the beginning noting the same observation of the Birkei Yosef, the printer’s error in the Tur, and that the Tur intended to say the same thing as the Shulchan Oruch, of course intending to say as well, like the Birkei Yosef, that he is with the Shulchan Oruch in this case. The Taz also notes that Lechatchila one’s daughter can learn Torah shebichsav, because the king would read Sefer Devorim to every Jew,, including women and children, and not only the men. The Shach on ???:? says nothing but an explanation of “One who is commanded and does is greater than one who is not commanded and does,” thus also deciding like the Shulchan Aruch and the Tur.
The Birkei Yosef notes that in the Machloikes with R’ Eliezer and Ben Azzai in Sotah 21b that if one is obligated to teach his daughter Torah shebaal peh, that we pasken like R’ Eliezer, and so for anyone who says that Ben Azzai says te opposite, we pasken like R’ Eliezer due to the opinions of R’ Yehoshua and R’ Elazar ben Azariah, if I understood the Birkei Yosef correctly.
The Rambam says on the matter: ????? ????? ???? ?:?? A woman who learns Torah, she has a reward, but not as big as a man’s, due to the fact that she was not commanded to. The one who is not commanded and does, his reward is not as big as the one who is commanded and does. Even though she gets a reward, our Chachamim commanded that one should not teach her. So we can see that the Rambam is of the opinion that it is an issur to not teach one’s daughter Torah shebaal peh, as consistent with his idea, that is stricter than other posikm’s, that lechatchila one should not even teach one’s daughter Torah shebichsav, but bedieved it is not like teaching tiflus.
The Shulchan Oruch HaRav quotes the Gemara in Kiddushin, that a woman is not obligated to learn Torah, because it says to your sons, not to your daughters, in ????? ?:?. Later he quotes the Rambam in what was mentioned in the previous paragraph. It seems like a contradiction, but in reality the unobligation is for Torah shebichsav, and the quote from the Rambam is for Torah shebaal peh. So, basically the Sulchan Oruch HaRav says that Lechatchila one can teach Torah shebichsav, but holds by the strict opinion of the Rambam that it is an issur to teach Torah shebaal peh. however, still the Shulchan Oruch HaRav says women need to learn Hilchos Nidah, Tvilah, and other things that apply for women.
The Bach says the lechatchila teaching a woman Torah shebichsav is OK, because if she dosen’t know Torah, how would she know how to fulfill all the mitzvos? Also, the Bach says that a woman can learn by hearing, but can not teach by stating, asserting. Hearing is merely at the time of its command (she can hear a command or public reading, but not learn on her own, like the public reading of Sefer Devorim. But a woman should still learn the things that women need to learn, and so she should say Birchos HaTorah every day.
The Rema says that a woman should learn the things applying to a woman, and she is not obligated to teach her son Torah (presumably both shebichsav and shebaal peh). But if she does help her son or husband so they can dwell in Torah part of their reward is given to them. This last sentence of the Rema can either refer to a Yissachar- Zevulun relationship, one works, and other learns, benefit divided, or when she helps: for example answering a question or learning together. The Rema also says not OBLIGATED. Not obligated, means you don’t have to do it, but you can. A woman will still get reward for learning even though she is not commanded, as R’ Chanina says: “The one who is commanded and does his reward is greater than the one who is not commanded and does.”
The Beis Yosef says on the Tur: With reference to this it is taught: If her merits suspend her (from dying from frinking the waters) (Sotah 20a). It is said in the Gemara (Sotah 21a) If you say, the merits of Torah, she is not commanded and does! The explanation of Rashi on this is that she is not commanded and does, and so her reward is less than one who is not commanded and does. And what is written (to support this)? One who does something without being commanded, his reward is not like the one who is commanded and does. (This all implies that even if a woman learns Torah she gets a merit, but not big enough to save from death, as the Gemara says: “A merit can save for 1, 2, or 3 years.”
Last of all, what is the context of R’ Eliezer’s machloikes with Ben Azzai? Ben Azzai says: One is obligated to teach his daughter Torah: in regard to what? In regard to her merits from the learning saving her from immediately dying from Mei Sotah, suspending her death for 1, 2, or 3 years. R’ Eliezer only says it is folly, in regard to it is worthless. It will not save her. According to Rashi’s interpretation of promiscuity, it advocates promiscuity, for she can do any immoral acts and not die for a couple more years.
*This is all according to my understanding of the text.February 24, 2009 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #1217941
Sometimes you find mekoros in the strangest places when you weren’t even looking for them.
Last night I was reading through the hakdamahs and haskamahs for the Kav Hayashar, a combination halacha-mussar-kabbalah sefer. The original had Lashon Hakodesh on the top and “Loshon Ashkenaz” at the bottom. This sefer has an enthusiastic haskama by the Pri Megadim (The poseik hador of his time- Reb Yaakov Kaminetzky ZT”L said that his test to become the rabbi of Tzitevian in Lithuania was “every line of the Pri Megadim”). This haskama mentions that this sefer is for Talmidei chachamim, laymen, and women (who were able to read the “Lashon Ashkenaz”, as the Pri Megadim calls it.) The other prefaces in the sefer mention that many women continue to learn this sefer even today. This sefer also explains the reasons for mitzvos, and has many direct quotes from the Zohar. Yet, it was muuttar for women to read due to the weakened conditions of Jewry after the Shabsai Tzvi incident. So if this sefer is muttar, then the Ramban definitely is.February 24, 2009 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #1217942
I’m having trouble finding anything in the Hebrewbooksonline website, but I did find this Malbim which can be read to allow anything:
????? ??????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????
??? ??”? ??? ???? ??? ???. ???? ?”? ??’ ?????
??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??”? ??? ??? ?? ??
???? ???? ?.? ????? ?????? ???????, ???? ???
???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??”? ???
?:?:??? ????????? ??????? ????? ???? ?????????
??,???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????, ??? ????
??? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ?????, ????’
???? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????,
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