Is a Kashrus Agency the Moral Police?
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- This topic has 78 replies, 23 voices, and was last updated 5 months, 3 weeks ago by ☕ DaasYochid ☕.
November 29, 2022 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #2143356Yabia OmerParticipant
“Do you know Dasani water is tap water? Now what if that tap water was unfiltered (like in NYC) and there are rabbanim (I know rabbi belsky disagreed) that say that it needs to be filtered
In that case does water need a hechsher?”
You only need a hechsher if you want to cater to a market that hold’s of the the stringent shita of that Rav.
Ask yourself a simple question: If you met the Shaagas Aryeh, or the Radvaz, etc and told them that in 2022 we have a symbol that says water is kosher, what would they say to you?November 29, 2022 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #2143363
“who knew and trusted”
Let me correct that to read ‘Who knew the Torah’s requirements of what is reliable’.November 29, 2022 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #2143373
“You only need a hechsher if you want to cater to a market that hold’s of the the stringent shita of that Rav.”
There’s your answer
“Ask yourself a simple question: If you met the Shaagas Aryeh, or the Radvaz, etc and told them that in 2022 we have a symbol that says water is kosher, what would they say to you?“
The same can be applied to fruits and vegetables but I can tell you for certain that there are numerous bugs in themNovember 29, 2022 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #2143382
Does the hashgacha intend to certify that there are no bugs?November 29, 2022 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #2143398
Idk ask them but if they’re not then how can they say it’s kosher, they hold of filtering bugsNovember 29, 2022 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #2143416
They are affirming that there is not an invisible issue. (Terumah, Arloh, etc.) Insects can be seen by the consumer. Anyways the consumer has to inspect for infestation that occurs in after it was released to the market.November 29, 2022 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #2143423
When checking for bugs is required, hashgochos will stipulate that on the label, even when doing so is a chumra. If water needed it, they would be obligated to tell people that such a concern exists.November 29, 2022 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #2143431
“Anyways the consumer has to inspect for infestation that occurs in after it was released to the market.“
You’re talking about barley I’m assuming, no one checks fruits or vegetables that have a reliable hasgocha on it (at least no one I know)November 29, 2022 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #2143471Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
We did not always knew the source. In fact, we have halochos of demai – sofek that am haaretz who is generally keeps kosher actually tithed the produce. Of course, maaser can be fixed, not everything can.November 29, 2022 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #2143488
Also demai, maaser, etc is only required in ארץ ישראלNovember 30, 2022 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #2143678
Cashews, dates, and figs, and other fresh fruit, should always be inspected. Many leafy vegetables need to be checked. And anything packaged requires the packaging to be intact. This includes dry goods.November 30, 2022 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #2143679
Butit still needs to be clarified where it came from. There are also handling issues that are better with official oversight. Especially when it comes to Pesach.November 30, 2022 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #2143699
Hashgochos write on barley, and some nuts, that they need bedikah.November 30, 2022 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #2143760
“and other fresh fruit, should always be inspected. Many leafy vegetables need to be checked.“
Not if it has a reliable hashgachaDecember 1, 2022 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #2144028
Even if fresh fruit was checked, nobody knows what is inside it until it is opened. If there is a worm in your apple, a hashgacha won’t help.
There have been kashrus alerts about unusual infestations; so somebody must be checking.
Most people I know, look at their food before they eat it.
The fruits that are hard to check, are figs and dates.
Oranges are easy to spot. Some might not know that it’s insects.
I don’t think I’m saying a chiddush.December 1, 2022 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #2144084
Dates are very easy to check. You just unroll them and look for noticeable wormsDecember 1, 2022 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #2144109ubiquitinParticipant
By ignoring my question we gave it away that we are one and the same.
Maybe answer my question to get them off track
You said “50% of kashrus decisions are not based on shulchan aruch” (paraphrasing)
When asked to provide an example you said giving a hechsher on water.
To which I asked where in shulchan sruch does it say water isn’t kosher? Why is certifying water as kosher against shulchan aruch?December 8, 2022 11:25 am at 11:25 am #2145981
The idea that people involved in servicing the religious needs of the frum community must be oblivious to market realities is absurd.
Hashgachos are aware that many consumers make assumptions about the ambience of an establishment based on the Hashgacha it carries. Is it wrong of the Hashgacha to give its customers what they want?
Suppose (for the sake of the argument) that it’s true that Hashgachos make many decisions for monetary considerations. Is there anything wrong with that?
I believe that Nike didn’t sever ties with Kanye West out of righteous indignation, but because they didn’t want to damage their brand. Is Nike the morality police?
In any case, it’s difficult to separate “protecting the brand” from “maintaining our ability to provide excellent Hashgacha services.” A bankrupt Hashgacha does not help the kosher consumer, no matter how altruistic are its principles.December 8, 2022 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #2146094lakewhutParticipant
CY why can’t a hashgacha lead the way and tell people who are closed minded not to judge. If an employer doesn’t treat employees right will the establishment get a hechsher? The lines get blurred. There are often different demographics within a community.December 9, 2022 10:14 am at 10:14 am #2146156
Lakewhut: “Is a kashrus agency the moral police?”
Also Lakewhut: “Why can’t a hashgacha lead the way and tell people who are closed minded not to judge.” (sic)
So you want the hashgacha to be the moral police, but only to enforce those aspects of morality which appeal to you. OK, then.December 9, 2022 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #2146232DaMosheParticipant
I was told by the head of a very respected hechsher in Brooklyn that kashrus is about 85% politics and 15% hilchos kashrus. So I guess I agree that the 50% figure put out a little while back is incorrect.December 10, 2022 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #2146380lakewhutParticipant
CY are the moral standards a bit arbitrary?December 11, 2022 2:02 am at 2:02 am #2146437
It’s not unreasonable for people to prefer a certain type of atmosphere when they go to a restaurant (or anywhere else, for that matter).
This is not close-mindedness, but simply a matter of personal preference.
I resent the allegation that my choice to avoid restaurants with a certain atmosphere means that I am a judgmental person
I see no problem with a hashgacha catering to its clientele, even if only as a business decision.
You seem to think that the hashgacha both (a) has no place regulating anything other than actual food kashrus, AND (b) should tell people not to judge.December 13, 2022 12:40 pm at 12:40 pm #2147258
The same market realities might dictate that the kosher ambience is more valuable in the current market than kosher food.December 13, 2022 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #2147357Reb EliezerParticipantDecember 13, 2022 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #2147431
n0mesorah, that may be true, just as many people value form over function in anything they buy.
The quality manufacturer still makes sure to produce quality goods.
Much the same way, the quality hashgacha will make sure to provide reliable kosher certification, even if the customers’ main focus is on the music.December 15, 2022 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #2148222
That’s true. But a majority of us will not be able to differentiate between the hashgochos that insist on kosher ambience. We go by the appearance of the retailer more than the halachic know how of the supervision. Case in point: there is at least one moveable hashgocha that is more aware of the ambience than the happenings inside the establishments they supervise.December 15, 2022 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #2148248Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
n0, you may be right: ambience is easily observable. So if hashgaha pays attention to it, and clients see and confirm that, then actual kashrut might become secondary. Also, any effort is not free. If hashgaha, or the business, spend more on that part of the business, then either it becomes expensive or, more likely, corners are cut somewhere else.December 16, 2022 8:58 am at 8:58 am #2148442☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Syag, no bitterness.
You certainly come across as bitter.
Which siman in S”A talks about kosher vs. unkosher water?
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