April 21, 2015 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #1073483DaMosheParticipant
R’ Yosef Eliyahu Henkin zt”l wrote the following letter:
I was shocked to read in Chomoteinu of Cheshvan 5719 the slanderous notion that we are required to give our lives (limsor nefesh) to frustrate and resist the efforts of the State of Israel in its struggle against those who would rise up against them. This was stated as a p’sak din based on what we learn that Israel is restricted from rebelling against the nations (Ketubot 111a)…
Now all the rabbis who were opposed to Zionism and the establishment of a state took up that position until the time that it was officially founded. Once the state was declared, anyone who plays into the hands of the nations of the world even where there is no imminent danger, is clearly a moseir and rodeif. All the more when there is danger to destruction of life in so doing… Surely, those who recently emigrated must be very weary of the state’s efforts to strip them of their Torah way of life, but to proclaim that anyone who aids the state is a rodeif, well such talk is the severest form of redifa.
Clearly, R’ Henkin felt that after the state of Israel was established, things changed. Not only that, but he even said those who oppose it are considered rodfim!April 21, 2015 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #1073484
Rav Henkin said that after the against-the-Torah establishment of the State of Israel, the fact is there are now millions of Jews living there and whose safety depends on the physical security of the country, and so nobody should do anything that puts Jews in danger and the fact that the creation of Israel was an aveira is no excuse to support the Arabs.
Of course, nobody disagrees with that. The Satmar Rebbe writes more than once that now that the State is established, we cannot allow the Arabs to take over, and only prayer – and Moshiach – can safely dismantle the State and that we cannot allow the nations to dismantle it because that would be a sakanah for the Jews living there.
Rav Henkin zt’l in Kisvei Rav Henkin vol. 2 5719 #109, vol. 2 in the haskomos, vol. 1 #206, vol. 2 p. 103 states “I opposed with all my might the creation of the Medina”. He also quotes that it is against the 3 oaths and that Hashem will punish us for it. He also says that the holocaust came about as a punishment for the violation of the Oaths:
Kisvei Rav Henkin vol 2 5719 #109, vol 2 in the haskomos, vol. 1 #206, vol. 2 p. 103:
“Dechikas Haketz [i.e. one of the three Oaths – not to “pressure the time of the geulah] pushes the time of Geulah further away, and because the different types of Baryonim wielded the sword and participated in various rebellions, one thing led to another and the result was that we lost the majority of our nation, who were killed through horrible deaths, the like of which has never been seen in all of history, and thousands of holy congregations were razed to the ground, and b’avonoseinu harabim it has fueled the warning of Chazal – “and if not [i.e. if you do not follow the Three Oaths], then I shall permit your flesh to be hunted like game in the field” – Hashem should have mercy on those who survived.”
He also adds about how Jews are not allowed to be involved in wars and our approach should be totally one of submission, and how the Baryonim are still involved in antagonizing the nations.April 21, 2015 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #1073485Patur Aval AssurParticipantApril 21, 2015 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #1073486
Well, joseph is up to his old tricks- quoting some passage but hiding another that contradicts him. He points to a passage of Rav henkin zz’l (page 115)that seemingly supports his view of history.Yet- all one has to do is turn to page 116 and immediately, there is a totally diferent view than the one joseph champions. On page 116, Rav Henkin actually says that-now that the medinah is established and tens of thousands of jews are depending on it for their protection one must respect the medinah. Quite different than the view that he champions. Additonally, you could look up that page of Rav Henkin and see how he admonishes us not to cheat and steal from the gentile authorities. I wonder if that is in line with what Joseph thinks.April 21, 2015 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #1073488HaLeiViParticipant
I think Joseph quoted that as well.
What I don’t get is, if you agree that although the state wasn’t supposed to be established (if indeed it violates the 3 oaths), you go along with the current reality one it is here, what is the point of all the anti-Zionist ranting and protests against any Israeli leader? And what is the point of mixing in to court cases that have nothing to do with you?April 21, 2015 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #1073489
Yes, I quoted that as well right above rob’s comment – right in the opening of my comment.
I think that was PAA’s original point about why argue altogether if it is all irrelevant anyways. But we argue over how to bring a korbon too, don’t we. One good reason to keep alive the fact that the State was and is a violation is to educate everyone as such so that they don’t think that its establishment was a positive event. Another is because it was a violation it has ramifications on how we interact with it today. (There are, of course, great disagreements on how to interact with it after-the-fact. Brisk doesn’t vote. Agudah does but doesn’t take a cabinet level position. etc.) As far as protesting against the leadership, that usually occurs (with the mainstream klal) when the leadership is pursuing negative actions such as drafting yeshiva bochorim, digging up kevarim, etc.April 21, 2015 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #1073490
HaLeiVi: If -according to you-even Joseph admits that today we have to support the medinah because there are many millions of Jews that live there, why all the long comments against it? Does it really matter whether a hundred years ago, there were some legitimate reasons not to found a medinah? Right now, the medinah is alive (and well, B’H) so let us dispense with the sterile arguments of the past and make common cause to see that yiddiskeit flourishes in the medinah.April 21, 2015 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #1073491
Joseph- I send my comments before I saw yours. By the way, arguing about korbanos has the merit of being an actuality sometime in the future. Not so whether the medinah should have been founded. You are disingenuous , however, because the thrust of all your comments is to assert that the medinah is illegitimate and has no right to exist. If now you are changing your mind, then welcome and let us not dwell on what was said or not said a hundred years ago. Clearly, there are problems within the medinah but these should be debated and hopefully solved for the benefit of all.April 21, 2015 10:57 pm at 10:57 pm #1073492Patur Aval AssurParticipant
That was my original point in http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/zionism-why-the-big-debate
In this thread it was only a disclaimer to my original point, which was that the establishment of a state being inherently bad was not unanimously agreed upon.April 22, 2015 5:47 am at 5:47 am #1073493Avi KParticipant
1. How do you define dismantling the State? Did France’s Fifth Republic
(= fifth constitution) dismantle France and create a new state?
2. Rav Wosner paskened that it is a mitzva for a police officer to ticket those who violate traffic laws. Rav Ovadia paskened (Yachve Daat 5,63 ) that the government has the power of a kingto levy taxes and therefore it is prohibited to cheat.April 22, 2015 11:56 am at 11:56 am #1073494April 22, 2015 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #1073495DaMosheParticipant
Joseph, you say “most poskim”. Yet Avi K just quoted R’ Ovadia Yosef who seemed to say otherwise.April 22, 2015 1:05 pm at 1:05 pm #1073496HaLeiViParticipant
So according to Satmar, that there is no Mitzvah to live Eretz Yisroel, there is Dina Demalchusa there.April 22, 2015 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #1073497☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
No, I believe they hold it’s not a legitimate government, so not covered by DDD.April 22, 2015 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #1073498Avi KParticipant
Joseph, the Rashbam (Baba Batra 54b) states that dina d’malchuta dina is because anyonewho lives in a country implicitly accepts its laws. In any case, The Mechaber paskens (Choshen Mishpat 369:6) that it it also pertains in EY. This is certainly true regarding public safety and welfare laws (Responsa Chatam Sofer, Choshen Mishpat 44 – and see Ran, Derasha 11 where he affirms the power of the government in EY regarding criminal law).The obligation to pay taxes is affirmned by Rav Ovadia (Responsa Yachaveh Daat 5,63 ). Moreover, as the Israeli government was elected by the people it can be compared to communal boards (sheeva tuvei ha’ir), which have powers similar to those of the king (Rema Choshen Mishpat 2:1)January 7, 2018 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #1444236SolaroParticipant
unfortunately all the hebrew letters in this thread (& many others ) turned into ??????s
I am looking for a mekor for R’ Elchonons letter aout Rav Kook if one is brought here it is no longer readable
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