Is Aliyah a wise choice in the nuclear age?

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  • #1073373
    Joseph
    Participant

    DM: So let’s publicly curse non-Jewish religions because they hate us anyways and doing so obviously won’t cause an increase in their hatred of Jews, correct?

    The fact of the matter is that Zionism unarguably caused a far greater and deadlier hatred of Jews by Arabs. Whatever amount of Arab hate of Jews existed prior to Zionism, it multiplied over a hundred-fold post the advent of Zionism. Pre-Zionism we Jews fared far far better for well over a thousand years living in Arab countries than living in Christian countries. Post-Zionism, living in Arab countries or living in Israel is far deadlier than living in Christian countries.

    ROB: Hungary was of the last countries the Nazi killing machine took hold of, and anti-Zionist Hungary has the largest proportion of survivors of all the countries you mentioned.

    #1073374
    Avi K
    Participant

    On the contrary, Yekke. Rav Meir Simcha was a Zionist who personally contributed to the JNF. As for why our enemies hate us, the initiator of the Holocaust wrote explicitly in his book that he hated us because we brought morality to the world. Our enemies now see that the establishment of the State of Israel was a giant step towards a Jewish Yerushalayim as the legal and moral center of the world and they are trying desperately to stop it as they want it either to be in Brussels or in some Caliphate.

    #1073375
    Chortkov
    Participant

    Avi K – R’ Meir Simcha did support the founding of the state, that is true. But he would definitely tell you that Jerusalem isn’t Yerushalayim. His point still stands about Klal Yisroel feeling at home amongst the Goyim. People have to understand that even in Jerusalem, you must pray ???? ??? ????????. A country run by ??????, by ????? ???, by ????? ? cannot be Our State. Until we have Moshiach at Israel’s helm, (????? ???), we cannot get comfortable.

    #1073376
    assurnet
    Participant

    It really amuses me people sit in America and fret over the matzav of us poor nebachs in Eretz Yisrael. Even if G-d forbid Iran were to nuke us, don’t you think America would be the next target 2 seconds later? As Bibi has stated – they don’t need ICBMs to hit Israel, those bad boys are for reaching America. Plus there have been documented incidents of Mexican drug cartels working with Hezbollah, Iran’s Lebanese proxy. They don’t even need to shoot it over, they can just shlep it across the border amongst the several hundreds-thousands of illegals Obama lets over every day.

    Whoever said Israel’s economy stinkss because the rate is roughly 4 shekels to the dollar doesn’t understand the significance of exchange rates. Japan has the 3rd largest economy in the world and the Yen trades at over 100 to the dollar.

    The Rebbe miSatmar himself lived in Eretz Yisrael for a while after the war and at one point was considering making permanent aliyah but decided to go back to the states due to the responsibility he felt to his large amount of chassidim still living in America (as per an English biography I have on him).

    B’kitzur, I can’t stand the government but I love living in this land and raising my children here (especially not having to dole out $10,000 or more per kid annually in school fees). If G-d forbid it all goes away in one big nuclear flash then that’s Hashem’s cheshbon, not mine. At least I’ll have died living the life I love without fear and get a free ticket to olam haba dying al kiddush Hashem.

    edited

    #1073377
    ronald9
    Participant

    lots of sad excuses here for not making aliyah….

    #1073378
    mw13
    Participant

    Untill Zionism started, Jews and Arabs co-existed impressively peacefully across the middle east (especially when compared to the situation in Christian Europe at the time). Think of the Rambam, who was a royal officer in the court of the King. I think that historically, its very hard to say the pre-Zionism levels of anti-Semitism in Arab society were anywhere near what they are now.

    Also, the latest War in Israel caused an undeniable uptick in anti-Semitic attacks and incidents across Europe.

    I am not trying to justify anti-Semitism. Obviously, they are 100% wrong. I just think its ironic that the proposed solution to anti-Semtitism ended up being such a large cause of the problem.

    #1073379
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Who cares about not being able to live in Arab countries today? Jews fare a lot better these days in Israel than they have in thousands of years. We can safely fall to the ground and recite ???? ??? ?????. Sure people got killed over the century. People get killed in New York as well.

    Unfortunately, in the quest to promote a Shita, people use all sorts of logic that would be repulsive to themselves in any other context. One example of this is the making light of any Ness that took place in EY, or its founding and wars. The arguments sound like any you would hear from the typical local Apikores. They can be applied to the story of Purim and Chanukah as well, and easily enough to many Nissim mentioned in TaNaCh.

    #1073380
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The logical reasons to hate us, given by Arab and European anti-Semites, don’t really make sense. It’s not that they are fooled, either. European hate for Jews is hardly anything new. They simply lied low for a couple of years after the holocaust, when anti-Semitism fell out of style temporarily. Now they are back to their true selves. They’ll hate us when were poor because were poor, when were rich because we’re rich, when we mix with them, when we don’t, when we should ‘go to Palestine/Zion’, or when we actually do so.

    Just as Yaakov Avinu told Lavan, ?????? ??? ?????? ????. You hate us when we shine and you hate us when we are low. The reason that they hate us is because they want to.

    The Arabs didn’t necessarily have to hate us simply for moving in alongside Tenn in a tiny piece of land. In fact not all of them did hate us. Some of their leaders got them riled up and locked into this position. There are many Arabs who still care very much about their people and are yet pro Israel. These are actually being more logical.

    #1073382
    Joseph
    Participant

    HaLeiVi: Where today, other than in Israel, do Jews get murdered and maimed in mass by suicide bombers killing dozens of Jews at a shot in bus stations, restaurants, at a Pesach seder, kidnappings, bombs, shootings, etc., year in year out, decade after decade from the founding of the State through this day?

    Was this ness you speak of that many thousands of Jews died in the first war and each subsequent war that crops up every few years in the State? And thousands of more civilian and military casualties in between wars, during those times of “peace”?

    Where else in the world are Jews subject to this death cycle today, since you say “Jews fare a lot better these days in Israel” and dismiss the comparative and relative peace of Jews under Arab rule for a thousand years – compared to their Jewish brethren living under Christian rule, and insist on forgetting how we fared relatively well (yes, even considering the anti-semitic instances that cropped up there as they did anywhere Jews lived in golus) under past Arab rule in favor of this supposed utopia of a peaceful Israel? Today a Jew is more at peace in Europe, despite all its anti-semitism, than in Israel where he is more likely to be attacked for being a Jew or die in war or terror. And less Jews were murdered proportionally over a period of time under pre-zionist (note: pre-zionist not pre-Israel) Arab rule in Arab countries (or in Palestine) than die in any comparable period of time in Zionist Israel’s many wars and instances of peacetime terror.

    #1073383
    ronald9
    Participant

    “Untill Zionism started, Jews and Arabs co-existed impressively peacefully across the middle east”

    well obviously, as the Arabs had no reason to dislike Jews prior to Zionism. But today we have the state of Israel where Jews, frum as well as non-frum, can reside freely. Certainly a worthwhile bargain no? It’s like saying you wouldn’t move to New York because since Jews live there there’s anti-semetism there.There’s virtually zero anti-semetism in China, I wonder why? Because theres no Jews there. Same principle.

    #1073384
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Let’s see, around 3,700 terror victims since before Israel’s founding. That’s still safer than New York.

    You wouldn’t even know the murder rate of Arabs against Jews in Arab lands since they were hardly prosecuted. Now, I want comparing Israel to Europe, America or the Arab countries. Compare Israel to Israel. It is much safer now to be there than it ever was.

    To say that your chances of being attacked in Israel is more than that of Europe is completely off track.

    Besides, quality of life for millions of people does have a value. When the early colonists fought the British they were not fighting for their lives. The British were not attacking them. The revolution was totally about quality of life, issues that are trivial by today’s troubles. And yet, they killed and died for it and nobody thought it unreasonable. To point to a few violent byproducts while the successes stare you in the face is not being truthful.

    #1073385
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    You set a criteria for Nissim? Unless every single person is saved there was no Ness. Does that mean that Chanukah was not a Ness? Look, they were a militia, they got them by surprise, they were good fighters etc.

    If you are training your children to think like Apikursim in one area, don’t be surprised when they expound on it.

    #1073386
    Joseph
    Participant

    Life is more vital than the nebulous quality of life you refer to. Better to be alive with a poorer quality of life than to be dead from war or terror.

    Yes, over 3,700 terror victims since Zionism. But you conveniently omit the far more serious figure of over 20,000 war dead (in addition to over 75,000 wounded from that period – all excluding wounded survivors and of terror) just between 1948 and 1997. Plus all the more from the wars since ’97. Nearly 100,000 disabled Jewish men from the wars.

    Which other comparable time period in pre-zionist Palestine, or in Arab countries, did you have over 25,000 Jewish dead and over 100,000 Jewush wounded? Answer: None. Zionist Israel is one of the deadliest periods in Jewish history.

    #1073387
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Really, HaLeiVi? When there’s a story about a crying getchke, you tell your kids to believe it because otherwise they might become apikorsim?

    #1073388
    assurnet
    Participant

    I fail to see how the math you guys are using works out. Joseph – your claiming 25,000 dead from Israel. Last time I checked Europe was boasting some odd SIX MILLION just a mere few decades ago. So chutz l’aretz is so much safer than modern day eretz yisrael eh? But don’t worry – something like that could never happen again, or could never happen in a place like America – the goyim there are “too civilized.” Just like the ones in Germany were also to civilized to do such a thing remember?

    I guess all the prominent gedolim who live here and direct parties that participate in the political process are all in error. Where were you to give eitza to Rav Shach, Rav Kanievsky, Rav Steinman, Rav Ovadia, and Rav Eliyashiv?

    #1073389
    Joseph
    Participant

    assurnet: So killing 5 million or less Jews is not too bad since the Nazis killed 6 million, correct? Right now it is more likely that C”V a mass Jewish casualty incident will happen to Jews in Israel than to Jews outside of Israel in America or Europe or Australia or Canada or South America.

    Voting’s got nothing to do with this discussion. The Brisker Rov didn’t vote nor do his disciples vote today.

    #1073390
    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, the canard about Jews living peacefully under Moslem rule is utter nonsense. Just to give one example, in the middle of the 19th century, J. J. Benjamin wrote about the life of Persian Jews:

    This, in fact, was the general lot of Jews in Moslem countries. As for your despicable attempt to blame Zionism for Jews dying in wars and terrorist attacks, why not blame the desire for cars for traffic deaths? This a typical blame the victim tactic used by our enemies.

    #1073391
    Joseph
    Participant

    Avi, dude, I said that the Jews under Arab rule, just as anywhere in golus for the past 2,000 years, have suffered. Don’t put words in other’s mouths.

    If the zionists didn’t demand and fight for a State, there would not have been over 25,000 dead Jews from wars plus another nearly 4,000 from terror plus another 100,000 injured in war and thousands more injured in terror. For hundreds of years prior to Zionism (note: prior to Zionism – not prior to Israel) there were not nearly as many as Jews killed in Palestine.

    #1073392
    ronald9
    Participant

    When the state of Israel was founded there were 400 bachurim exempted from the army. Today there are over 60,000. But ya the Zionists really tried to destroy the Torah. Might I remind you none of that would have happened had they not fight and died for the state. Great hakaras hatov you guys show.

    #1073394
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    DY, I don’t know that story.

    I’m not talking about believing hearsay. In talking about making light of something that the whole world is in awe of besides for atheists, Jew haters and those with a Shita to push.

    Actually, accepting a Ness and special Hashgacha does not require one to subscribe to Zionism. The two are not related, which is where I come in. But since nodding to anything at all that can be seen as acknowledgment is out of the question they start Fahrenfering everything they won’t refute — by using the same arguments any Apikores would use to explain away or make light of miracles if TaNaCh.

    #1073395
    Joseph
    Participant

    Was the Brisker Rov or Satmar Rov an apikoros, per your description, HaLeiVi? Is 25,000 war dead, 100,000 war crippled, 4,000 terror dead and tens of thousands of more terror injured the ness you’re referring to? Was over 25,000 dead Jews (and counting) and over 100,000 (and continuing) crippled Jews worth the “quality of life” you previously touted for establishing a State or did Chazal have a good point about pas b’melach tochal?

    Like you said, the early colonist fought and died fighting the British for a better quality of life so why shouldn’t Jewish blood be similarly spilled for a better quality of life. After all, a nation like all other nations.

    #1073396
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The Brisker Rov held there were nissim, in the z’chus of limud Torah.

    The Satmar Rov held it’s all sitra achara.

    #1073397
    Joseph
    Participant

    Thank you. Yet the Brisker Rov held it was absolutely wrong to establish the State. He held that position both pre-establishment and post-establishment of the State. That is also the position of the other Litvish and Chasidish gedolim, even the ones that held (unlike the Brisker Rov) it appropriate to participate in the organs of the State once it existed.

    #1073398
    assurnet
    Participant

    Joseph – your saying G-d forbid 5 to 6 million could die here in Israel but that until now remains hypothetical. I’m talking about 6 million that actually DID die in Europe. So when we are discussing risks based on actual events and actual numbers mathematically you would have to conclude it’s several tens of times more dangerous in the last century to live in Europe than in the land of Israel.

    I think your issue is your hung up on zionism and can’t separate it from living in the actual land which is ironically the same as most arabs and other israel haters today. I’m by no means a zionist but I love living in Eretz Yisrael because Hashem gave it to me not hertzl or ben gurion. Despite their deepest intentions, within the state they created the charedi community is growing by leaps and bounds and the non-charedi community is now starting to shift much more heavily to traditional if not dati. I personally tolerate the government with no small amount of distaste as a necessary evil much like I would the federal government if I were living back in the states (as a great deal of goyim there probably do as well).

    Do some chazara in Tanach. See how giant amounts of Jews were taken out in wars r”l throughout shoftim and melachim. Often the government then not only wasn’t frum – they were into avoda zara. Yet the only time I can recall people leaving the land because they didn’t feel it was safe was after the murder of Gedalia ben Achikam, and that fact was viewed as so tragic that we have a fast day until today commemorating it. You can try to argue that maybe it’s a suffek whether or not it’s a mitzvah to live in eretz Yisrael today but can you argue that there is even the chance of maybe a suffek of a mitzvah in living in New York?

    #1073399
    kj chusid
    Participant

    The brisker rov always opposed Zionism and the state of Israel

    #1073400
    Joseph
    Participant

    assurnet: Your mixing in living in Eretz Yisroel with Zionism. They’re two seperate issues. I fully support living in Eretz Yisroel for those who can do so. Chareidim have lived in Eretz Yisroel for hundreds of years prior to the existence of the State, long before the zionists-come-latelys decided they wanted a State.

    #1073401
    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, dude,

    1. “For hundreds of years prior to Zionism (note: prior to Zionism – not prior to Israel) there were not nearly as many as Jews killed in Palestine”. What about the Crusades, Chmielnitzki massacres, blood libels and pogroms? The numbers you cite are nothing compared to the dead and injured in those attacks.

    2. Again, you are blaming the victim (not that you are alone – someone wrote a book blaming the Boston Marathon bombing on the difficulties immigrants have in America). According to your logic we should all assimilate. If there will be no Jews no Jews will be killed. In fact, there will be no anti-Semitism although some other scapegoat will surely be found.

    3. Almost nobody held like the Brisker Rav. In fact, the head of Agudat Yisrael in Eretz Yisrael, Rav. Y.Y. Levin signed the Declaration of Independence.

    4. In “Em HaBanim Semeicha Rav Teichtal brings down that the Gra (quoted by his talmid Rabbi Hillel Rivlin, in “Kol HaTor”) said that just before the time of Mashiach the sin of the spies will infect some who hold on to the Tora. Rav Kook was a bit gentler. He said that anti-Zionism came from a misconception of Judaism. Unfortunately, many accepted this misconception and as a result turned their backs on Judaism.

    #1073402
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The Satmar Rav mentions three reasons for the Nissim. Either that HKBH simply helped since Yidden were in trouble; due to many Tefillos; lastly and most famously, Sitra Achra. And again, you set a criteria for what will be allowed to be considered a Ness? Was the victory of Chanukah a Ness? People died there too.

    Joseph, you are playing with my words, and I hope it is not purposely. I said that the type of reasoning given to make light of Nissim and open Hashgacha is what is used by Apikursim. I’m not calling anyone an Apikores (or an Oved Avoda Zara for that matter). As we see, the Brisker Rav and the Satmar Rav didn’t say that it just happened our that they were stronger. Yet, I do hear that from many or most.

    People should realize that there are more than two sides to this story. Satmar framed it that you are either on board with their entire ideology or an ardent Zionist. It is not that way. Many Gedolim and Rebbes stood behind the state although they disparaged of the organizations. They didn’t yell or broadcast their opinion on television so it isn’t out there. Most Chareidim actually have that approach. This website does.

    #1073403
    Joseph
    Participant

    So instead of the Chmielnitzki massacres we now have ongoing anti-Jewish terror in Israel and continual Israeli war dead in the wars that Israel has every couple of years?

    In fact virtually all the gedolim hold like the Brisker Rov. Not, perhaps, on the tactics such as whether to vote or participate in State organs or functions but certainly they agree on the core anti-zionism that the State is and was a mistake, with the only question disputed being how to live with it. Rav Eliashev himself three or four years ago said that the Kenesset is a beis minus.

    #1073404
    Joseph
    Participant

    As far as R. Teichtal’s zionist treatise is concerned, I’ll once again quote the following:

    Mi Sheberach for Tzahal

    edited

    #1073405
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    I decided long ago not to respond to “joseph”s rantings on zionism and eretz Yisroel. However, for once, let me point out his sophistry and twisted logic. He accuses the state for all the dead Jews in the last sixty years, maintaining that, if there would not be a medinah, the jews would live there peacefully, as it was in previous centuries (dubious but let us accept that). Does anyone with a smidgen of “sechel’ even believe that this would be the case today? When the X-ians in Lebanon were killed and exlied in droves decades ago , when the X-ians of Iraq are being murdered today wholesale and driven out of their ancestral home, when even within the Arab nations, they murder each other mercilessly, when all around Israel, hundreds of thousands of human beings are being slaughtered on both sides, do you, for one moment, believe that the jews in a so-called palestine would be spared? Maybe, just maybe, HKBH allowed the medinah to be formed because He knew what would happen in future years- like today- and that the jews of eretz Yisroel needed to be independent to defend themselves. That scenario is a lot more plausible than the fantasmagoric assertion that all is from the sitra achara.

    #1073406
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Joseph, the fact that you use that quote of Reb Elyashiv shows what I am saying, that you cannot separate the two issues.

    Almost all Gedolim were against the Zionist groups for the same reason they were against the Jewish communist groups. This has little to do with the discussion about Israel being a great thing that we are thankful for. The Brisker Rav was thankful for it, but not to them. Satmar is the exception. They took it all the way and forced themselves into new ideologies that they hadn’t had until then, in order to back up the anti Zionist stance. As I said, it doesn’t have to be that way, but that’s the way they took it.

    The Chazon Ish didn’t either like them, but did he rather live under Arabs?

    I understand, there is a big Kasha: If it is really a good and important thing, how could it have come about through such people? It’s a good question indeed. The Tzitz Eliezer discusses it. Besides, you can’t make sweeping decisions based on a Kasha.

    #1073407
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I don’t have much invested in this topic because I am not in any particular camp on this issue, neither were most Gedolim. Rav Ovadia Yosef mentions the merits of a state alongside the many flaws, calling it a far cry from Yemos Meshiach. The Steipler as well responded to someone trying to push The Shita on him. He agreed that perhaps they violated the Shalosh Shvuos but didn’t agree that it remains forever a cursed outcome.

    Most Chasidishe sects did not subscribe to Satmar ideology. In fact only those connected to Satmar took it on. And did this without signing on to the Zionist camp. This is why part of the Satmar handbook is about how even most Gedolim and Tzadikim can be wrong and be unknowingly worshipping Avoda Zara. Is this an opinion mentioned by their earlier Rebbes?

    I didn’t include war casualties because that doesn’t make it a dangerous place per se. A place where people are randomly killed wicks be a dangerous place to live. A place that has a war every decade is not the same thing. Besides, BH as time goes on casualties are less not more. Most of casualties you mention are from 48 to Yom Kippur war. And yes, a victory that defies nature or most estimates shows Hashgacha, and put most of the world in awe. That is all besides atheists, Jew haters and Shita pushers.

    I’m not sure what you think I mean by quality of life but there is more than a world of a difference between living in Israel and living in an Arab country, or even in Europe. Israel is the safest place for a Jew. And if you are afraid of a random terrorist attack, then according to present day Satmar Rebbe it would help to keep away from certain areas.

    #1073408
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    If you want to hate the early Zionist even better we can come up with some theoretical what ifs that’d shake their whole undertaking.

    Think about it, without Zionism or the White Paper the British would still be in charge of Palestine. Jewish people looking for a place to run would naturally go to Eretz Yisroel, especially being in Western hands. Being that this would not have been organized the Arabs would not have galvanized against the influx, perhaps. Thus the British wouldn’t have closed their doors to the Jews, which means that many more Jews would have come. We would also have much more religious Jews coming, since it is not about Zionism.

    Once the land has a majority of Jews perhaps a natural two state concept would have come into place. Y’never know…

    So here we can shoot the messenger and keep the message.

    #1073409
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    As I have mentioned in the past ( http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/zionism-why-the-big-debate ), I don’t think there is any reason to be a zionist or an anti-zionist. That said, it should be obvious that there was no monolithic approach of the great rabbis of yesteryear to the issue of the state of Israel. In this thread Joseph is portraying it as if all the great rabbis were against the idea of a state. So here are a few sources to balance the portrayal:

    R’ Menachem Kasher wrote :

    ?? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?? ??”? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????????? ???? ????? ?”? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?? ?’ ?????? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??’ ?????? ???’ ???? ?”? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??????

    ???? ?? ???. ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ??’ ?????? ??? ?’ ???? ??”? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???

    He also writes:

    ???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?’ ????? ??????? ???????? ???????? ?????? ?????? ?’ ??????? ???’ ?????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?”? ?? ?????”? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ??’ ?? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ??????? ???????? ??

    ??????? ?????? [emphasis his]

    ?? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?”? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ??

    ??? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ??????? ???????? ??

    ??????? ?????? [emphasis his]

    ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?”? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?”? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ?? ??????? ??”? ?????? ??????? “?????? ??????” ???? ?????

    This is also brought by R’ Ovadia Yosef in Yabia Omer Orach Chaim 6:41. He refers to it as:

    ???? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??????

    Some of the signatories were:

    R’ Tzvi Pesach Frank, R’ Yechezkel Sarna, R’ Zalman Sorotzkin, R’ Yechiel Michel Tikuchansky, R’ Shlomo Yosef Zevin, and R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach.

    Furthermore, see the position of R’ Yosef Eliyahu Henken as expressed in Shu”t Benei Banim siman 51:

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20022&st=&pgnum=203

    and ma’amar 1, ose 17-19:

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20022&st=&pgnum=209&hilite=

    #1073410
    Joseph
    Participant

    PAA: Kasher was a notorious forger. He forged a letter from Gedolim stating that the Zionist State is the ischalta d’geulah, afra lepumei. This fabrication of Kasher’s has been in Zionist literature for years until we found out that Kasher faked the whole thing, and now it’s documented and he’s exposed as a forger and a fake. He also doctored the story of the meeting of the Moetzes Chachmei HaTorah in 1937 where he left out the position of people like Rav Ahron Kotler. It should be noted that Kasher, in his attempted defense of religious Zionism, Hatkuha Hagedolah”, forged and doctored the article in Hapardes – yes, he did not merely misquote it, he actually blatantly and unashamedly doctored it, presenting his forgery as “proof” to his anti-Torah position, to give the impression that the only rabbonim against the State were those from Hungary and Czechoslovakia. He conveniently deleted the names of

    Rav Elchonon Wasserman, Rav Ahron Kotler and Rav Rottenberg. He wrote a book called HaTekufah heGedolah which is absolutely full of misquotes, fabrications and distortions. He also deleted the sentence that those voting against – held this view under ALL CIRCUMSTANCES – even if such a medina was built upon ‘yesodos hadass’, because, this it would be “Kefirah b’emunas bias hamoshiach…” and especially one built “…al yesodos hakefirah, venimtza shem shomayim mischalell.”

    His deception has already been exposed and well known to those who have researched this topic. R. Zvi Weinman documented extensively the forgeries of R. Kasher – and he even challenged him in public to respond to his findings when R. Kasher was alive – in his excellent work “Mikatowitz ad 5 B’Iyar.” Of course, Kasher did not produce any response to the evidence against him. More of R. Kasher’s falsificaitons are exposed in the sefer “Das HaTziyonus”, expecially his now famous fraud regarding the position of Rav Meir Simcha od Dvinsk. So this R. Kasher, who the Brisker Rav referred to as “the biggest treifah” (a play on his name, which he spelled the same as the word “kosher”), reprinted the unverified Kol Hator, and then he stretched the statements that are found there, that we don’t even know really come from the GRA, reading into them things that even they don’t say. Kasher wasn’t always a Zionist. That’s a later development. It’s funny, in fact – if you want to track Kasher’s Zionistic tendencies you can check the old printings of Torah Sheleimah, where he spelled his name the old Yiddish way – Menachem Mendel Kasher – Kuf alef shin ayin raish. Then slowly he changed both the spelling (to the modern chof shin reish) and the name (to plain “Menachem”.)

    #1073411
    lesschumras
    Participant

    People keep citing the position of Reb Elchonon Wasserman as their ultimate anti-zionist sourc but even his contemporaries saw his positions as extreme. The ultimate irony was that his grandson, also Elchonon Wasserman, graduated from the Yeshiva of iFlatbush high school, a coed pro-zionist school.

    #1073412
    Joseph
    Participant

    Some of the signatories were:

    R’ Tzvi Pesach Frank, R’ Yechezkel Sarna, R’ Zalman Sorotzkin, R’ Yechiel Michel Tikuchansky, R’ Shlomo Yosef Zevin, and R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach.

    None of the people you mentioned ever signed a letter saying such a thing. You got that information – or whoever told this to you got it – from the “hatekufah hagedolah” of Rabbi Kasher, who falsified the entire episode as well as doctored the letter.

    RZW comprehensively debunks RMK’s statements (p.231) that “k’mat kol gedolei hatorah vechol RY’s bo’oretz” accepted the concept of ADG, and (Ha”H page 387): “…kovu v’ishru 200 rabbonim miyisroel kimat kol rabbonei ho’oretz gam chavrei Agudas Yisroel (milvad HaNeturei Karta).. .hashkofas daas hatorah merabonei ho’oretz bli pipukim vechashoshos…shehakomas medina hi…kehashgocho protis min hashomayim K’ASCHALTA D’GEULA.” As already mentioned above, RZW says that these quotes from HaH are regularly used by those who need it, to prove that the Gedolei Yisroel accepted the ADG. (Indeed, in HaH that RM Kasher himself considered this KK so important, that he refers the reader to it – **right at the beginning of his book** – even before his Hakodomo.) RZW continues, that not only did he speak to the Gedolim, who denied ever signing such a KK, but – after much effort – found the original document – with the signatures…and of course the document with signatures NEVER has the words “Aschalta DeGeula” on it! The actual words there are (reproduced in his book): “…hanitzonim horishonim shel KIBBUTZ GOLIYOS…” (The HaH version: “…hanitzonim horishonim shel ASCHALTA DEGEULA.”!!!) (Incidentally, RZW adds, that at that time no one yet had any idea that this “kibbutz goliyos” would also cause with the mass Haavora al hadass in the Olim camps.) RZW notes (p.144) that his criticisms of the HaH were originally publishedin the Z’eirei Agudas Yisroel monthly Digleinu (Shvat 5738) – during the lifetime of RMK, who obviously wouldn’t or couldn’t respond. (This is despite the fact that at the end of his foreword, he invited comments.) Later on (p.282) in his book, RZW brings further evidence, that RMK’s biasand prejudices caused him to censor/misquote and misrepresent facts in anarticle in the rabanut publication Shono Beshonoh, in order to give the impression that his pro-zionist views were not in conflict with the majorityof the Gedolei Yisroel. In page 286 he also shows how RMK in HaH distorted the words of the Gerer Rebbe (Imrei Emes) z’l at that meeting.

    Another person who published (in 5729) an attack on RMK is Rav Moshe

    Sternbuch shlit’a who was then a Rosh Kollel, living in Bnei Brak. His main aim is the Kol Hator which RMK attached to HaH – claiming it is the work of Rav Hillel Shklaver z’l purporting to be the views of the Gr”o z’l on Inyonei Geula etc – which somehow fit in very nicely with the views of HaH. RMS notes that the clear evidence that the entire sefer is not from the Gr”o or his students is the fact that it contains many modern Hebrew words and it is therefore unclear what is from the original and what was added later. In his opinion KH should not have been published – being a “Dovor She’eino Mesukan”. He also expresses his surpise at RMK who ignored the Cherem Hakadmonim issued by the Bes Din of Vilna after the petira of the Gr”o not to publish anything in his name without the haskomo of the Bes Din.. . RMS continues that RMK well knows the opinion of “rov minyan ubinyan gedolei hador hakodem vedorenu” (including RC Brisker, REC Meisles, RE Wasserman, RBB Leibowitz,RA Kotler and most of the gedolei Hachasidus) on these matters. But he disregards them and only brings those who are leshitoso. RMS then goes on to prove that even in this version of KH there are many rayos which clearly disprove RMK ideas in HaH and goes as far as calling him a ‘megaleh ponim beTorah shelo kehalocho”! His ‘maamar’ runs approximately 10 pages with point after point disproving RMK’s pshat in the KH and the Gr”o.

    Hayotze Lonu Mizeh, that it’s more than obvious that when it came to stand up for his prejudices, RM Kasher was quite prepared to openly and/or surreptitiously doctor, censor and distort the facts. Thus, LAD, his book should not be used as serious proof for any debate on matters relating to the medina and the views of the Gedolei Yisroel. And, as mentioned previously, all his rayos etc misforim vesofrim must be double and triple checked – before being quoted as “Toras Emes”. It seems that this need for distortion and misrepresentation shows that even this renowned Torah scholar felt that without it he could never convince the (Torah) world that an independent medina prior to bias hamoshiach was the ideal choice of the recognized gedolim.

    #1073413
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That’s sad.

    Who held R’ Elchonon’s shittos were extreme? He was known to closely follow his rebbe, the Chofetz Chaim, who was anti Zionism, and R’ Reuven Grozovsky’s B’oyos Haz’man, which is strongly anti Zionism, is considered standard yeshiva hashkofo on the matter.

    #1073414
    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, you are a notorious libeler. I suggest that you and Daas read ?????? ???”, which details a long list of gedolim from various eidot who supported Zionism.

    #1073415
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    What you just quoted from the Chofetz Chaim was about living in E.Y., not Zionism, and about a state after Moshiach comes, not before.

    And yes, the Chofetz Chaim, as well as most, if not all gedolim respected R’ Kook tremendously, but disagreed with him on Zionism.

    #1073416
    Joseph
    Participant

    As far as Benei Banim, it is entirely unreliable on his grandfather (Rav Henkin zt’l) views, which the author by and large is at odds with himself. Before using him as a citation check out his seforim, including his teshuva on the permissibility of mixed dancing, see what he says and decide if this is a person you want to quote. Or the funniest teshuvah he has is about – and I am not making this up – whether you are permitted (yes, permitted!) to say “Zatzal” on the Satmar Rebbe ztvk’l, or is it prohibited to say Zatzal on him, since Zatzal would imply that he was a Tzadik. I am not kidding. He really has a lengthy discussion about this.

    #1073417
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Disclaimer:

    Please do not impute any negativity into my tone. The nature of the written word is such that in a debate the tone may seem strident even when it is not.

    Joseph:

    Your accusation that the source of the quote I posted is R’ Kasher is correct – I explicitly wrote in my post “R’ Menachem Kasher wrote” and “He also writes”.

    So after reading your first response to me, I decided to look into the issue and see if you were correct. Regarding the 1937 meeting (which I did not mention in my post), I found the original article which you accuse R’ Kasher of forging and doctoring. Indeed you are correct that R’ Kasher left out R’ Wasserman, R’ Kotler, and R’ Rottenberg; however it cannot be called “forging” or “doctoring” considering that he used an ellipsis to note that he was leaving something out. (I am not condoning what he did – I think it gives a false impression of the facts – but it is not quite the same thing as forging or doctoring a document. On that note, technically you actually did forge/doctor it since you wrote that those voting against the medina held that “it would be “Kefirah b’emunas bias hamoshiach…”” when in fact what it says in the article is “???? ????? ?????? ???? ?????”. The article can be seen at http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=12085&st=&pgnum=10 particularly the left column starting from the third paragraph.

    Getting back to the point of my original post, we can see clearly from the original article that it was not simply “all the gedolim were against the founding of a state”. The article describes how the meeting to discuss this issue lasted seven hours and was stormy. Already we see that the opinion of the Rabbis was hardly monolithic. After delineating the two sides, the article says “????? ????? ??”.

    Regarding the point about the Chofetz Chaim, let us, for the sake of argument, grant that R’ Kasher was a complete fraud. That doesn’t preclude his point from being true. So do you know of anywhere in the Chofetz Chaim’s writings where the three oaths are discussed? If you do, I will happily retract this point. Once we’re discussing the Chofetz Chaim, here is a quote from Kisvei R’ Chaim Eliezer Bichovski which I have quoted here previously:

    ??? ?? ??? ???? ??’ ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???”? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???”? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?’ ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ??”? ??????? ??? ??? ?? ?’ ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ?? ???????? ????? ?”? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ???”? ???? ??”?

    Regarding the kol korei about aschalta d’geula, I don’t have access to Zvi Weinman’s writings, so the only evidence I have, is you saying that Weinman claims that the original document said “kibutz galiyos” in place of “aschalta d’geula”. So let’s say I grant that you are correct on this. You agree, though, that these rabbis signed a kol korei which declared the State of Israel to be the ?????? ???????? ?? ????? ?????. The Yeshuos Malko (Yoreh Deiah 66) wrote:

    ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ??????

    So while R’ Kasher may have been dishonest, the actual kol korei still says a lot.

    Regarding R’ Yehuda Herzl Henken, I’m not sure why his halachic positions would affect whether he is trustworthy to quote his grandfather’s position. But regarding his halachic positions themselves, feel free to cogently dispute the teshuva about dancing:

    http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20021&st=&pgnum=119

    Also read the two pages of haskamos:

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20021&st=&pgnum=3

    Regarding the “funniest teshuva” ( http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20022&st=&pgnum=127 ), first of all, the first half of the teshuva is only about whether there is a chiyuv to say “zatzal”. Then he writes:

    ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ????

    So he reluctantly addressed this issue. Also, if you have a problem with not calling the Satmar Rebbe “zatzal”, do you also have a problem with not calling R’ Soloveitchik “zatzal” (Jewish Observer), and do you have a problem with calling R’ Kook:

    ??? ?? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????”? ???? ?????? ?”? ( http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20339&st=&pgnum=99 )

    I’m not saying I agree with R’ Henken on this, but I don’t think having “a lengthy discussion about this” is so far-fetched. He writes in the teshuva that his grandfather said:

    ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??”?

    Zaken mamrei and mevazeh talmid chacham are no joking matters, so it makes sense that these issues need to be clarified.

    Again, I am not promoting Zionism or anti-zionism. I am just pointing out that there are more nuances than you made there out to be.

    #1073418
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So Joseph is saying that you can’t trust what he says in his grandfather’s name because of what he said about the Satmar Rav, and PAA is justifying what he said about the Satmar Rav based on what he claims his grandfather said about him.

    My head is spinning.

    #1073419
    Joseph
    Participant

    PAA: Note, again, from the earlier comment:

    Upon investigating the matter and contacting some of these signatories for their explanation, he found that they NEVER SIGNED THIS KK! The modus operandi of the organisers for the KK was simple. They mailed out the text of that KK, notifying the recipients that anyone who does not send in an objection, will have his name added to it.

    #1073420
    Joseph
    Participant

    Furthermore, the declaration was sent in three different versions to different rabbis, and many of the rabbis signed on versions that did not include any positive words about the state, just about voting for the United Religious Front. The 1949 activists who posted the announcement in the streets took all the signatures and put them under one declaration. Furthermore, there were actually two other announcement published at the time of that election, one signed by roshei yeshivos and one signed by Chassidic rebbes. R. Kasher took all the names of the signatories on all three announcements and claimed that they had all signed the one calling the state “the beginning of redemption”.

    #1073421
    ABS-SA
    Participant

    In the event of all out nuclear war, it makes very difference where you live!

    #1073422
    Joseph
    Participant

    HaRav Yosef Eliyahu Henkin zt’l in Kisvei Rav Henkin vol. 2 5719 #109, vol. 2 in the haskomos, vol. 1 #206, vol. 2 p. 103 states “I opposed with all my might the creation of the Medina”. He also quotes that it is against the 3 oaths and that Hashem will punish us for it. He also says that the holocaust came about as a punishment for the violation of the Oaths:

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3217&st=&pgnum=115&hilite=

    Rav Henkin said that after the against-the-Torah establishment of the State of Israel, the fact is there are now millions of Jews living there and whose safety depends on the physical security of the country, and so nobody should do anything that puts Jews in danger and the fact that the creation of Israel was an aveira is no excuse to support the Arabs. (Of course, nobody disagrees with that. The Satmar Rebbe writes more than once that now that the State is established, we cannot allow the Arabs to take over, and only prayer – and Moshiach – can safely dismantle the State and that we cannot allow the nations to dismantle it because that would be a sakanah for the Jews living there.)

    Kisvei Rav Henkin vol 2 5719 #109, vol 2 in the haskomos, vol. 1 #206, vol. 2 p. 103:

    “Dechikas Haketz [i.e. one of the three Oaths – not to “pressure the time of the geulah] pushes the time of Geulah further away, and because the different types of Baryonim wielded the sword and participated in various rebellions, one thing led to another and the result was that we lost the majority of our nation, who were killed through horrible deaths, the like of which has never been seen in all of history, and thousands of holy congregations were razed to the ground, and b’avonoseinu harabim it has fueled the warning of Chazal – “and if not [i.e. if you do not follow the Three Oaths], then I shall permit your flesh to be hunted like game in the field” – Hashem should have mercy on those who survived.”

    He also adds about how Jews are not allowed to be involved in wars and our approach should be totally one of submission, and how the Baryonim are still involved in antagonizing the nations.

    Already we see that the opinion of the Rabbis was hardly monolithic.

    The “vote” that the Agudah took where the greatest Gedolim, such as Rav Ahron Kotler and Rav Elchonon Wasserman who were there – (and it should be noted that together with them held Rav Chaim Ozer and the Brisker Rav and Chazon Ish who weren’t there altogether) – were “outvoted” by a greater number of much lesser Rabbonim.

    #1073423
    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, actually there are two Mashiachs: Mashiach ben Yoseph and Mashiach ben David. Rabbi Hillel Rivlin, in “Kol HaTor”, quotes his rebbe the Gra as saying that the job of the first is kibbutz galuyot and building the material side of EY and the job of the latter is to build the spiritual side. Rav Kook believed (“Hesped b’Yerushalayim” printed in “Mamari HaRayah”) that Herzl, or perhaps the Zionist movement in general, was the former and explains why it opposed religion. He has been proven correct by history.

    #1073424
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Yup-let’s all be totally submissive to the Palestinians, ISIS, Hezbollah, Iran,Hamas, -see Joseph’s comment- that’s the right recipe fpr Israel. Yup, let’s “safely” dismantle Israel and give it over to Hamas and ISIS. That’s the right recipe for Israel today. Forgive me if I decide not to commit suicide, regardless who promotes these asinine views.

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