Is anti-Zionism the sin of the spies?

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  • #617571
    Avi K
    Participant

    Chazal say that the spies had various reasons for being against aliya. They even had “frum” reasons. In EY they would have to work whereas they wanted to sit in the bet midrash and live on food stamps, Section 8, clothing vouchers, etc.

    I’m willing to post this to retain your point, but I strongly disapprove of you referring to Hashem’s anan and the mon as government support. Shame on you.-29

    The Gra is quoted by his talmid Rabbi Hillel Rivlin (“Kol HaTor”) as sayingthat just before Mashiach comes this sin will infect those who hold on to the Troah. Rav Teichtal says (“Em haBanim Semeicha”) that opposition to our return to EY is this sin.

    Are those who continue to be anti-Israel over on this sin or is it ordinary psychological denial?

    #1149719
    catch yourself
    Participant

    29 – I would have to agree with the point that it is entirely possible that government support is the modern manifestation of Hashem’s care and support, which, to a more spiritually elevated generation, presented itself in the ?? and ???? ?????.

    I don’t recall any of the ?????? saying that it was an aversion to work that motivated the ??????. It is clear in the ????, however, that their ???? was ???? ??? (or, more precisely, ????? ?? ??).

    #1149720
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    I don’t think the “either or comment” at the end warrants leaving this as a legitimate comment.

    I wonder why allegedly Torah observant people such as Avi K who consider the Zionist government a part of ?????? ??????, completely ignore the posek of ??? ???? ????. The Israeli government proudly presents to the world that they are one of the “pinkest” nations ( Theydon’t mean pink like communist). They promote their toeiva pride and have multiple parades and fests, some which they call the largest in the world. And Thait “??????” is just some of the immoral/amoral activities that the Zionist government prides itself on.

    #1149721

    Nishdayngesheft, I think Avi K is in dreamland if he thinks the current State is substantially loyal to halachah, and it is patently obvious that it’s not going in the right direction.

    That being said, it’s offensive to call him, or those who share his mistaken hashkafos, “allegedly” Torah observant.

    They may turn a blind eye, or at least wear rose tinted glasses, when it comes to the secular State, but they don’t agree with the aveiros committed.

    The religious zionists are misguided, not evil.

    #1149722

    catch yourself, living in Hashem’s embrace is akin to living in your mother’s home and being cared for regarding room and board. If you cannot tell the difference between loving care, and humiliatingly filing for, accepting and living on food stamps than I fear your view of Hashem’s love for us may be somewhat skewed.

    #1149723
    Joseph
    Participant

    Avi, for the umpteenth time despite multitudes of being corrected and reprimanded, once again purposely confuses Zionism with aliya and living in Eretz Yisroel.

    The biggest Bnei Torah who are anti-Zionist live in Eretz Yisroel.

    #1149724
    theprof1
    Participant

    Medinas israel is a manifestation of eschalta de’geula that comes from Yad Hashem. The medina has a government which is anti-Torah. Too many of the Jews living in Israel are against Torah living. But the State of Israel is holy; the government toig nisht.

    #1149725
    catch yourself
    Participant

    29 – In case you haven’t noticed, we are in Galus. We do ***not*** currently enjoy “living in Hashem’s embrace,” and I made no mention of such. In His concern and care, however, He continues to provide for us, albeit indirectly. I think this is quite obviously part of the ????? ???? of Galus.

    This would not be unlike the statement of Chazal that it would have been appropriate for the Geulah from Bavel to be accompanied by miracles similar to those of Yetzias Mitzrayim, but that the generation was not worthy. Instead, it happened at the pleasure of heathen dictators.

    According to the Gemara, the ????? ????? will eventually acknowledge the benefits we enjoy from their investments, and try thereby to claim some reward; they will be rejected because this was not their intention. That it is His intention seems eminently plausible, though I do not claim to know the Mind of Hashem.

    His love for us is boundless, although our conduct unfortunately at times necessitates that it manifest itself in ways difficult for us to withstand. Any other interpretation, I believe, is skewed.

    #1149726
    Chortkov
    Participant

    @TheProf1: There is certainly nothing holy about the State of Israel. The land of Eretz Yisroel has ?????, not the government.

    #1149727

    Medinas israel is a manifestation of eschalta de’geula

    How can anyone short of a navi possibly know that? Perhaps it’s chevlei Moshiach? A new golus?

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=41396&st=&pgnum=13&hilite=

    #1149728

    29 – In case you haven’t noticed, we are in Galus. We do ***not*** currently enjoy “living in Hashem’s embrace,” and I made no mention of such. In His concern and care, however, He continues to provide for us, albeit indirectly. I think this is quite obviously part of the ????? ???? of Galus.

    your answer has nothing to do with this conversation. The comparison was made that those who wanted to continue in Hashem’s embrace and did not want to enter E”Y and work, were like those who are on government programs in order to stay in learning. That comparison is disgusting. the fact that we are no longer in Hashem’s embrace in that way is irrelevant. The problem was the analogy.

    #1149729

    Catch yourself: I don’t think the OP meant the comparison as favorable to government assistance.

    #1149730
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    -29, duly impressed!!! Since when do Moderator wax on the sublime?!?

    #1149731
    Avi K
    Participant

    29, apparently my use of hyperbole to criticize an attitude prevalent in the frum community was justified by CY’s post . Apparently Hashem also disapproved as He wanted people to work. Thus, He gave various laws regarding agriculture and business.

    CY, the Sefat Emmet discusses this based on the Zohar (Shelach Lecha 5639). Lashon hara (actually hotzaat shem ra as LR is davka true) was the tool, as we see from certain frequenters of the CR.

    DY, according to all opinions things are much better than they were and while there are blips the general direction is positive. according to all polls Israelis are more religious than they were a few decades ago. The majority of candidates in officer courses are religious. There are religious Jews in the general media.

    Moreover, as Rav Natan Kotler pointed out in this past Shabbat’s Machon Meir parsha sheet, Amalek rears his ugly head at the beginning of a geula as he is opposed to our moral message. This happened after yetziat Mitzrayim, at the start of the return from Bavel (in the time of Ahashverosh) and it happened eighty years ago when we started to return and build national institutions. Now we see that Amalek is becoming shriller with various universities entertaining boycott resolutions. On the other hand, those gentiles who welcome our message are becoming more and more supportive and there is even a worldwide Bnei Noach movement with rabbinic guidance from EY (Noahide World Center | Brit Olam).

    DY, RZs criticize what needs to be criticized but recognize that it has been a long galut so perforce the geula will be long.

    #1149732
    akuperma
    Participant

    On the contrary, the spies thought that Eretz Yisrael could only be conquered by having a superior military (they probably favored a policy of focusing national spending on the military and taking people away from learning Torah to play soldier). Yehoshua trusted that Ha-Shem would hand over Eretz Yisrael to us with minimal effort on our part – no need to replace Torah and Mitsvos with military training. The spies lacked faith that Ha-SHem would deliver Eretz Yisrael to us in spite of military inability to do so by force.

    Of course, the zionists aren’t so dumb. They know that Ha-Shem never told to conquer Eretz Yisrael from the Yishmaelim, and by many shitahs told us not to start the war and seize the government from the goyim, and since the zionist war isn’t a mitsvah they can expect no help from Ha-Shem, and are forced to rely on their own efforts.

    #1149733

    29, apparently my use of hyperbole to criticize an attitude prevalent in the frum community was justified by CY’s post . Apparently Hashem also disapproved as He wanted people to work. Thus, He gave various laws regarding agriculture and business.

    I’m sorry but I am not understanding what you are trying to say here.

    Do you think that choosing to “leach off the government” as many put it, can in any way be equated with choosing to remain in the comfort of Hashem’s care? If that is not what you meant, then you should not have said it.

    #1149734
    catch yourself
    Participant

    29, DY – I think it is quite obvious that the OP did not mean the comparison in a favorable way; this was the intention of the second paragraph of my first post in this thread.

    Nevertheless, I think that he (albeit unintentionally and indirectly, even ironically) made a good point about one possible reason that Hashem allows social safety net programs to exist.

    I saw nothing in the OP about “Hashem’s embrace,” and, at the risk of sounding repetitive, I think that he is wrong to compare ?? ????? ????? to government programs. My point was simply that the comparison was not inaccurate, just inverse. It may not be wrong to compare government programs to ?? ????? ????? in the sense that they may be the way in which He chooses to provide for many of ????? ??? ????? today.

    #1149735
    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    Rarely has any post disturbed me to such an extent.

    But I’ll suspend my utter disbelief, and simply make some concise points, which I request Avi K to kindly respond to.

    Firstly, as others have said, the State of Israel and the land of Eretz Yisroel are two separate entities, and to speak of one is not necessarily to speak of the other. To refer to the State of Israel is to speak of the government, bureaucracy, administration and all the other components that constitute the State. Eretz Yisroel is the physical land, which has inherent kedusha. The two are not the same, and do not even share the same exact borders. To speak ill of the State, which is not exactly difficult, is not to insult the Land, which is ossur.

    Furthermore, The State of Israel, as defined above, does not adhere to halacha to any level that would be acceptable to a frum Jew. There are components of halacha built into the laws of the state, such as with regard to marriage, but these are limited, rarely in proper accordance with halacha, if ever, and are falling away with each passing day. Neither the character nor the laws of the State, taken as a whole, in any way correspond with the Shulchan Aruch. If you knew someone who kept Shabbos, but ate pork and went to church, you would not consider him a practising Jew due to his keeping isolated mitzvos. The same applies to the State, which as an entity plainly doesn’t adhere to halacha.

    So, to sum up in a manner that some might find easier to comprehend: The State of Israel is not Eretz Yisroel as defined in halacha. The State of Israel does not adhere to halacha, and, as a whole, it is a secular, often anti-Torah entity.

    These points are simple, essentially self-explanatory and should go without saying, but it appears the level of discourse has fallen such that a direct approach may be the only thing the serves any function. Avi K, I await your reply, preferably with as little waffle and as much Yes/No directness as possible.

    #1149736
    HaKatan
    Participant

    The greatest Torah sages of the past century and beyond have blasted Zionism for the idolatry and heresy that it proudly is.

    Rabbi Teichtal’s book was written during very desperate times and his introduction in any event states not to rely on it as a support for any -ism.

    We’ve gone over this way too many times: the State is idolatry and heresy and a colossal chilul Hashem, not to mention communist-textbook-case propaganda and identity theft of the Jewish nation.

    The gedolim were and are quite clear about the cataclysmic disaster for the Jewish people that was Zionism.

    The Rambam who the MO love so much brought down the oaths in Iggeres Teiman. The Satmar Rav answers all the nonsense that Zionists try to bring up in a desperate attempt to hold on to their idols. Might as well just give it up.

    #1149737
    Avi K
    Participant

    29, my point was that they did not want to work. They wanted to have everything given to them on a silver platter. Rav Ashlag says in his introduction to “Torat Eser HaSefirot” that the concept of “bread of shame” also applies to what we receive from Hashem.

    CY, Hashem allows many things to exist as He wants us to have free will. Social safety nets are supposed to be just that – temporary protections until a person gets on his his feet. Unfortunately, they have turned into a trapper’s net. The recipients think that this is a permanent way of life and pass on their “profession” to future generations and the givers think that this is tzedaka (there is a story about a person who did not tell anyone about an evyon he knew so that he could give him a mattana every Purim). Even worse, some have learned from the socialists that the way to control people is to keep them dependent.

    #1149738
    Joseph
    Participant

    Furthermore, not there entire State of Israel is in Eretz Yisroel. Eilat, Israel

    is in chutz l’aaretz. And not the entire Eretz Yisroel is in the State of Israel. Southern Lebanon and parts of Jordan are in Eretz Yisroel.

    Is Avi outraged and denounces anyone who speaks ill of the safety conditions of living in southern Lebanon or western Jordan as being from the meraglim? Are those that speak ill of the governments of southern Lebanon or western Jordan, Eretz Yisroel, meraglim too?

    #1149739

    Avi, I knew exactly what you meant and that’s why I still say you should be ashamed of yourself. In your need to degrade the concept of being on govt programs, you are willing to compare it to living worry free with HKBH. The protection we received in the desert was complete and divine. Why would anyone ever want to give that up freely? The govt programs provide limited support for limited provisions in limited housing under very specific conditions, hardly complete, hardly divine and not at all loving. Do you really think it’s okay to compare what Hashem did for BY to that lifestyle?

    #1149740
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Well, Avi k does not need my help as he is learned enough and erudite to defend his views but I thought I’d give him a hand. The religious Zionists are often accused of being blind to the failings of medinat israel but the blindness is more acute and more complete with the opponents of the medinah.

    Neutiquam has a long entry that is only remarkable in its fallacies and misrepresentations. To write that the state’s halachic standards are not enough for any frum jew is a ridiculous argument and a false one. Since time immemorial, there have always been less than ideal regimes in eretz yisroel. Did that make the frum jews to leave and disavow the state? No, they tried to improve it by example and by exhortations. Never did they turn their back on other jews. And- to add insult to injury- the writer insults every jew who is not perfect. Keeping shabbos does not diminish that person even if he transgresses by eating pork r’l. More ridiculously, comparing that behavior to the Israeli government is just plain fantasy. Eretz yisroel is not-yet- a fully religious state but it is getting there. You may not have noticed but it has been pointed out that-for the first time- all three branches of the security apparatus in israel are shomre shabbos. Many other parts of the Israeli bureaucracies have been occupied by frum jews. That is a major achievement and things will continue to improve. Until the third bais hamikdosh, that will come down intact from the heavens, nothing can be built in one moment. It is indeed “aschalte de geulah” and only the obtuse refuse to see it in their blindness.

    #1149741
    simcha613
    Participant

    Joseph- you ask a very good question, a question that you’ve asked before, which I have thought about a lot. Is there a difference between the parts of EY under Israeli control and the parts of EY under Arab control? And I think the answer is yes, there is a difference.

    In Parshas Shelach there were two sins, the cheit hameraglim, and the cheit hama’apilim (those who wanted to go to EY when they weren’t allowed to). Without a Navi, how can we tell the difference? How do we know when we should fight for EY and when we shouldn’t? As a non-Navi, the difference I see from the Torah is the result. As we see from the ma’apilim, when we try to fight for EY when we aren’t allowed to, then we lose and we lose big time. We get massacred.

    The parts of EY that the Israelis control, we can return to without fear of being massacred. Are there terrorist attacks? Of course. And each Jewish life killed from an attack is a tragedy. But only a small small minority of the Jewish People are actually being killed. I would not think that that qualifies as the type of massacre that the ma’apalim faced. This is the area that Hashem has returned to us as He allowed us victory in 1948 and 1967. Had God not returned EY to us, we would have faced the same fate as the ma’apalim… a complete massacre.

    The other areas are much more dangerous al pi teva. Without a Navi to tell us otherwise, we have to assume that we would be massacred if we try to take parts of Jordan or Lebanon. Therefore, in my opinion, it is not a sin to speak of the dangers of returning to the parts of EY under Arab control. It wasn’t returned to us.(Maybe that’s how we should have felt in 1948 facing numerous Arab armies, but bH we didn’t and we won, proving at least in hind sight that we didn’t violate the cheit of the ma’apalim by fighting for EY).

    #1149742
    Chortkov
    Participant

    To write that the state’s halachic standards are not enough for any frum jew is a ridiculous argument and a false one.

    ROB: Do you think the halachic standards of the State are enough for any frum Jew?

    #1149743
    Health
    Participant

    Simcha613 -“The other areas are much more dangerous al pi teva. Without a Navi to tell us otherwise, we have to assume that we would be massacred if we try to take parts of Jordan or Lebanon”

    Not in the least bit true!

    The SLA never wanted Israel to leave and they would be more than happy if Israel took it over.

    As far as Jordan, IDK what part is in EY, but for sure, Israel didn’t have to give the West Bank to the PA.

    #1149744
    Avi K
    Participant

    NeutiquamErro, the state is the political entity that encompasses a territory. The

    bureaucracy the group of people who administer it. There is also civil society and there is much to admire in Israeli civil society. It is also assur to speak ill of the state as that, as I have explained on another thread, is an entity independent of this or that government or even this or that constitution. As for the borders ofthe Land, that is a matter of great discussion. In Chazal’s time the northern border was Akko (Mishna, Gittin 1:1). Similarly, In Shaul’s time Gat was considered Chutz laAretz as it was under the rule of the Plishtim (Shmuel Alef 26:19).

    HaKatan,

    1.Rav Kook explained that sometimes Hashem uses sinners to carry out His work.

    2. Rambam did not codify them in Mishna Torah. I have explained many times why even if they once were in force they no longer are.

    3. The Chashmonaim were much worse yet Rambam at the beginning of Hilchot Chanuka says that we still celebrate their establishment of an independent state.

    Joseph, those are not Jewish governments. In any case, one can criticize the government without criticizing the state. You and your twin are ingrates towards Hashem just as were the spies.

    29, Hashem wanted us to give it up as He knew that that is not healthy on a permanent basis. Not individually and not nationally.

    #1149745
    Joseph
    Participant

    Simcha: You value Jewish blood too cheaply. Who are you to say Gush Katif was even with 10 Jewish lives to hold unto? How can your sacrifice 100 Jewish lives to gain or maintain political sovereignty over Sderot. And how can you allow even 1,000 Jewish lives to be butchered in order to control Tel Aviv?

    How do you dare come to say “But only a small small minority of the Jewish People are actually being killed. I would not think that that qualifies as the type of massacre that the ma’apalim faced.”?!

    Pikuach Nefesh doche kol haTorah. Including Shabbos and certainly including yishuv.

    Avi: How dare you criticize the Lebanese or Jordanian States that maintain sovereignty over Eretz Yisroel? FTR, Israel isn’t a Jewish State.

    #1149746

    Avi you continue to try defending the point you were trying to make with the disrespectful analogy. I will continue to answer that you have no business degrading Hashem in your quest to make this point. Sidestepping doesn’t make it go away.

    We have a guest in our home who is a bit off. When we mentioned a huge gadol Hador he said, “I know him, we used to steal hubcaps together in high school”. Would the fact that he is lacking understanding make this comment any less disrespectful? No. Would the fact that he didn’t understand the chashivus of a gadol make it any less disrespectful? No. I don’t care what you meant, or think you meant, or what you seem to think you know about what Hashem meant. Don’t disrespect Him, and don’t compare his wonders and unfaltering, unmitigated and complete care and support of the Jews in the midbar to a govt program.

    #1149747
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    yekke2: The standards of present day medinat yisroel are pretty good, even for a very frum jew. hilchos gittin ve kiddushin is al pi halacha. so is giyur and so is shabbos in many cities. So is the standards of kashrut and officialdom. is it perfect? no but life is never perfect.

    #1149748
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The Gra is quoted by his talmid Rabbi Hillel Rivlin (“Kol HaTor”) as sayingthat just before Mashiach comes this sin will infect those who hold on to the Troah. Rav Teichtal says (“Em haBanim Semeicha”) that opposition to our return to EY is this sin.

    So basically, you have so much emunas chachamim that if the talmid of the gra said it will happen several hundred years ago, then it must be what is happening now.

    Very nice.

    Today’s chachamim disagree. How about some emunas chachamim on dem apples?

    #1149749
    simcha613
    Participant

    Joseph- I don’t know how to value even one Jewish life vs. the mitzvah of yishuv Eretz Yisroel, but I do know it’s more complicated than you make it seem. Besides for historically, we have fought for yishuv EY, from the time of Yehoshua, to the time of Malchei Yehudah, to the time of the Chashmonaim (which was without the directive of a navi) which put Jewish lives at risk… the meforshim say how the mitzvah of yishuv Eretz Yisroel is both living and conquering Eretz Yisroel through war. By definition, yishuv Eretz Yisroel/milchemes mitzvah is docheh pikuach nefesh, otherwise there would be no such concept as yishuv Eretz Yisroel/milchemes mitzvah unless you were sure no one would die which is a ridiculous hava amina to even consider.

    So, I think it is a very erroneous conclusion to say that yishuv Eretz Yisroel is always pushed aside for pikuach nefesh. It may be true nowadays, depending on the status of Eretz Yisroel, the mitzvah of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel, the concept of milchemes mitzvah bizman hazeh… but depending on how you understand those concepts, it is perfectly feasible for people to be put at risk for Yishuv Eretz Yisroel within the confines of Halachah.

    #1149750
    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    AviK:

    Okay, I tried to make sense of that, I really did, but it doesn’t seem to answer any of my above points. You seem to make a distinction between the aspects of the State I picked out, and the State as a whole, even though this makes no material difference to my point, as far as rebuttals are concerned. So I’ll clarify once again, even though I’m sure you understood me perfectly the first time. You have stated that the State, as an entity, and the physical land of Eretz Yisroel are one and the same. Kindly explain this notion, rather than stating it as fact, and please try to be direct.

    And you, once again, seem to ignore the question of halacha when posed directly. And this is convenient, as to support your case that the State is part and parcel of the land of Eretz Yisroel, for as of yet unexplained reasons, the State in question would at least have to be a State that abides by the Torah (Although, even if it did, perfectly, it would not legitimise it, but that’s an argument for another time, I’d like to avoid getting sidetracked). But it clearly, blatantly and obviously doesn’t. That undermines your entire argument, which is why you try to focus on minutiae and repeatedly avoid the wider picture. So kindly answer the question that has been posed to you by multiple posters, multiple times:

    How can you claim that the State of Israel adheres to Halacha when this is clearly not the case? Please explain. And furthermore, do you truly believe it does? Answer Yes or No, and please show your working if you so choose.

    #1149751
    Avi K
    Participant

    29, you are correct insofar as Hashem only meant his open miracles to be temporary whereas the liberals want their programs to be permanent. It is impossible to compare His intent with their intent. I am sorry that I upset you so much. I thought that just as you understand that calling Hashem a king does not imply any comparison to a human king so to using this metaphor (“A metaphor is a figure of speech that refers to something as being the same as another thing for rhetorical effect” – Wikipedia) did not imply any literal comparison c”v. I hope that this makes shalom between us and closes the subject.

    Popa, to which chachamim are you referring? I have heard chachamim who agree.

    NeutiquamErro,

    The Wikipedia defines “state” as “an organized political community living under a single system of government”. This is obviously not the same as the government or the constitution. If not for “copy and paste”I would instruct you to write “The government is not the same as the state” 1,000 times.

    The State of Israel is in conformance with the Halacha as there is a Torah obligation ot have a state in EY as the Ramban rules in his sefer hamitzvot (mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”). The government does some things in conformance with Halacha and some things in violation of Halacha. So do many people. Among the worst are those who are motzi shem ra on the State and even worse are those who do so in the gentile media and even worse are those who make common cause with the PLO and Iran.

    #1149752
    Joseph
    Participant

    Simcha, which poskim ever paskened that a) yishuv today is doche pikuach nefesh and that b) any of Israel’s wars are a milchemes mitzvah? Rabbi Kook did not pasken that, so who are the great rabbis that took it on their shoulders to rule that multitudes of Jewish lives may be sacrificed in the name of gaining or maintaining control of the land?

    Specific names, please.

    #1149753
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    jews were killed in Pogroms of Europe and they didnt even own the land

    Jews will get killed no matter what

    #1149754
    Joseph
    Participant

    Avi, I am being moche your history of being motzi shem ra on the Lebanese Republic and on the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, both of which are sovereigns over Eretz Yisroel. Furthermore, you are part of the meraglim and an ingrate for insisting that it is unsafe for Yidden today to do the great mitzvah of yishuv haaretz in Lebanon, Eretz Yisroel or in Jordan, Eretz Yisroel. Your not insisting Yidden around the world today move to the Eretz Yisroel’dik portions of Lebanon and Jordan, much as moving to the Eretz Yisroel’dik portions of the zionist entity, demonstrates your lack of bitochon and violation of the fulfillment of yishuv haaretz.

    You should be the first to rectify this sin by immediately moving to Southern Lebanon.

    #1149755
    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    Avi K:

    Superb nitpicking. You even managed to repeat your nitpicking, in extended form, on the other similar thread. In fact, this may be a perfect way to illustrate the disingenuous behaviour I railed against before.

    In attempting to define a State, I merely picked out components of the State, which, as Wikipedia has so helpfully said, part of the state. I never insinuated that a state is nothing more than it’s Government, and I resent the implication that I have. My original statement was that,

    To refer to the State of Israel is to speak of the government, bureaucracy, administration and all the other components that constitute the State.

    That isn’t a far cry from Wikipedia definition, as an ‘organised political community’, as I simply mentioned Government et al as components of a State. Furthermore, after the first time you bought up this distinction, I said, and I quote,

    You seem to make a distinction between the aspects of the State I picked out, and the State as a whole, even though this makes no material difference to my point, as far as rebuttals are concerned.

    So I simply acknowledged the distinction, and moved on the central issue, which the State’s supposed adherence to halacha. I also requested a Yes/No answer, which you have as of yet failed to provide, although you have improved slightly on your previous indirectness. But you still decided to focus on the definition of the State, despite that not being the central issue at all, which is whether that State has kedusha or is simply a secular entity, which due to it’s behaviour and ideals it clearly is. But you seem bent on infuriatingly focusing on the utterly pointless minutiae, and I’m all but fed up addressing those. Answers on a postcard please.

    #1149756
    simcha613
    Participant

    Joseph- I do not know the sugya that well and I certainly don’t have sources for you. But, I do not know of too many poskim that rule a) it is assur to live in Eretz Yisroel today because it’s more dangerous than the USA, b) it is assur for a soldier to serve in Tzahal because he puts his life at risk to defend the borders of Medinas Yisroel and its inhabitants (though there may be other reasons why serving in Tzahal is problematic), or c) that the War of Independence and the Six Day War were fought be’issur because Jewish lives were at risk.

    Maybe there are a few opinions that say those things and I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re able to quote them, but that doesn’t seem to be the opinion of the Dati LeUmi Gedolim and Poskim, and I don’t think it is the opinion of many Charedi Gedolim and Poskim.

    #1149757
    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, according to Ramban conquering EY is an obligatory war. Rambam implies it and states explicitly that saving Jews is an obligatory war (Hilchot Melachim 5:1-2). This obviously is doche p”n of individuals.According to the Minchat Chinuch (Mitzvot 604 and 625, Rav Kook Mishpat Cohen 144 this is doche p”n of asn individual for obvious reasons. Rav Ovadia has also said that all of our wars were in this category. He also said that giving land for peace is only theoretical as the Arabs want all of EY and this is impossible. Rav Avraham Shapira, Rav Mordechai Elaihu and Rav Shaul Yisraeli were among those who paskened against land for peace.

    #1149758

    How graciously patronizing. You continue to defend your use of a metaphor as if I don’t have what it takes to understand the lack of literality. The problem, dear sir, is comparing Hashem to a czar or dictator instead of to a king and responding with, “what’s wrong with that analogy, they’re both leaders?”

    Yes, this closes the subject because you seem to be either unable or unwilling to see the degradation in your words and I am unable and unwilling to let them stand.

    #1149759
    Joseph
    Participant

    Avi: Chacham Ovadia not only supported giving the Arabs land from Israel for peace, he actually had his political party’s MKs vote for it. Rav Schach also supported land for peace, as did very many other Gedolei Yisroel.

    Sovereignty is not worth the loss of even one Jewish life.

    #1149760
    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    I’ve answered your point about the State partially keeping halacha on the other thread, but for the sake of consistency will post it here too.

    There is a clear distinction between a person who occasionally sins and the failure of the State to adhere to halacha fully. Firstly, with regard to virtually all religious Jews, we try to keep the rules, and occasionally fail. These failings do not define us, as long as we acknowledge they are failings and endeavour not to repeat them. Were a person to say that he chooses not to keep certain halachos due to ideological reasons, then that person cannot be considered religious.

    For a State, however, it’s views are as defined in it’s constitution, will of the people, and governance. For a State to have a law on it’s statute books promoting toeiva, and you know perfectly well what I’m referring to, is to diverge from the Torah entirely. A State cannot claim to have failed momentarily as a person might. It’s guiding ideals must be in the right place, and they clearly aren’t.

    #1149761
    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    Also, and this is an open question to all, but especially Mod-29:

    Since this thread is now a virtual duplicate of it’s sister thread, all this is doing is allowing a wider platform for this nonsense, and leading to dual, identical arguments. Perhaps we can all agree, for the sake of ease of use, to confine this discussion to the other thread, if only to avoid confusion?

    #1149762

    Don’t look at me. I didn’t even know there were two threads.

    #1149763
    simcha613
    Participant

    I don’t think the halachic nature of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel vs. Pikuach Nefesh was discussed on the other thread.

    #1149764
    NeutiquamErro
    Participant

    Perhaps not that particular point, but it does fall under the same banner, and it would probably be less confusing if it was all on the other thread. And anyway, this thread is meant to be about the issur of insulting E”Y, and that’s barely been mentioned, it’s all basically about Zionism, just with a title dreamed up by a zionist.

    #1149765
    charliehall
    Participant

    Rabbi Yitzchak Yaacov Reines, Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook, Rabbi Joseph Ber Soloveitchik, Rabbi Yitzhak HaLevi Herzog, Rabbi Ben-Zion Meir Hai Uziel, and Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein were among the greatest Torah sages of the past century and they were all enthusiastic Zionists.

    “not there entire State of Israel is in Eretz Yisroel. Eilat, Israel

    is in chutz l’aaretz. And not the entire Eretz Yisroel is in the State of Israel”

    The boundaries of the State of Israel are not clear. There are differing definitions in Chazal, and those definitions don’t agree with the definitions in Tanakh.

    #1149766
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “The boundaries of the State of Israel are not clear. “

    Typical that the radical liberal would support the position of the BDS reshoim.

    #1149767
    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, Chacham Ovadia later regretted it. In fact, virtually all of the rabbanim of all of the streams opposed the expulsion from Gush Katif. As for Jewish sovereignty vs. a human life, if, as Ramban rules, it is a milchemet mitzva that is a non-starter.

    NeutiquamErro, Judaism is not an “all or nothing” religion and “religious”, as RaKook points out, is not a Jewish term. As I previously posted, according to Rambam a person can be considered a tzaddik even if he has 49% aveirot by weight – an no one knows how Hashem weighs them. Those who support toeva (and BTW, it was a Supreme Court decision) are tinnokot shenishbu like the Karaites in Rambam’s time (Hilcht Mamrim 3:3). It could be that Hashem discounts this when juding them. In any case, I also invite you to make aliya and vote for change.

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