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Is describing someone as “pretty” a subjective description? in other words, if it is, no one could tell me so-and-so is pretty, since only I can determine if i consider someone to be pretty. or, are some people definable as pretty in a non-subjective way, that basicly most people will consider her pretty?
Of course it is.
All things people like are subjective. As the hebrew saying goes, “?? ??? ???? ??? ???????”.
Yet, you will find that people like the same things. You can bet that if you serve pizza, 99% of the crowd will be happy. And if you serve tofu, 5%. And if you serve burnt popcorn, 1%.
So while it certainly is subjective, you should not be surprised if most people will generally have the same opinion.
beauty is in teh eyes of the beer-holder
Can a non-pretty person make themself pretty?
I assume that this is a purely hypothetical question to train the mind how to think since there are no non-pretty persons who are Jewish.
yes and it is an opinion in a mishna on top of it. it is also a machlokes in the same mishna whether or not there even is such a thing as a not pretty jewish girl. i don’t remember the exact location of the mishna though. i think it is in nedarim as the machlokes is based off of someone who makes a neder to marry a girl on condition that she is pretty (or something along those lines) and her looks turn out not to be his taste.
😀 Zuberman! 😀
“beauty is in teh eyes of the beer-holder”
lol 😉 thanks for the laugh!!
its true…*looks in mirror*
‘Is describing someone as “pretty” a subjective description?’
Yes. Standards for such in the popular culture have clearly changed over time.
Is describing someone as “pretty” a subjective description? in other words, if it is, no one could tell me so-and-so is pretty, since only I can determine if i consider someone to be pretty.
I fail to see the logic in this extrapolation. I agree that “pretty” is subjective, and not everyone agrees on what constitutes pretty. But to say “only I can determine” if someone is pretty, and therefore “no one could tell me so-and-so is pretty” is faulty reasoning. Everybody can determine if someone is pretty, and thus anyone could tell you that someone is pretty. Therefore, it would make sense to say that a particular person is someone whom most people consider pretty. Obviously that isn’t a guarantee that the person with whom you are speaking will agree, but it is safe to say that someone who is considered pretty by many can be described as such.
Either every married woman was beautiful or many men marry girls they think isn’t beautiful.
aside from the obvious individual tastes, men and women have different general opinions on looks. (sandrac, take note) if a girl dresses well, wears tasteful makeup, and does her hair nicely, she gives the impression of being pretty, even if she’s not, and that’s what men will notice. women, on the other hand, are more likely to be more critical of other women, and notice the actual looks.
she gives the impression of being pretty, even if she’s not
Well I don’t think women want to fool and trick people.
pba, no one is trying to fool anyone. every female should have the sense to make the most with what she has. would you prefer that women stop wearing makeup and dress in uniform?
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Mostly, the concept of looks is subjective in terms of our cultural ideals. But no one can argue that there is not a concept of beauty that ALL people would recognize as such. I see a sunset over the ocean with purples, pinks, and oranges filling up the sky – that’s objectively breathtakingly gorgeous. But when you see a person, your concept of pretty might differ from mine. I never believe or give credence to a shadchan that a girl is pretty or a boy is good-looking. First of all, they have an agenda, and second, what they find attractive my child might not. Some people love curly hair, others cannot stand it. Somwe like redheads, some blondes, some brunettes, some like shorter, some like taller. There might be someone that everyone will agree is pretty, but most of us are culturally ingrained for out standards of beauty. There was a time in history when the size twos who are being redt shidduchim left and right, would have been considered scrawny and malnourished, and certainly not healthy for bearing children. It’s all in the mindset of the specific time.
I knew a woman once who was married three times. She was thought to be stunning and heads would turn when she walked in. She was NOT pretty by any stretch of the imagination (had a really huge bumpy nose like Streisand, and an underdeveloped chin), but she walked with confidence and believed herself to be pretty, and she attracted people with no end in sight.
So if a shadchan can describe any girl as beautiful, then a shadchan can describe all girls as beautiful.
“Is describing someone as “pretty” a subjective description?“
Pretty much.
Describing someone’s looks as “awful” or “terrible” is also subjective.
And if you describe someone’s looks as “awfully pretty” or “terribly pretty”, then you’re being doubly, awfully, terribly, subjective.
(Yes, that’s a clearly murky explanation.)
I never heard a shadchan redt a shidduch of a girl who wasn’t pretty.
Watch me call myself “pretty”, even though I’m a guy –
I’m Pretty cool! LOL!
Brooklyn Yenta, you nailed it. No makeup and uniforms (and uniwigs). Tough row to hoe, but it would solve lots of problems, and there would be no more tznius threads.
Its a machlokes beis shammai and bais hillel.
🙂 twisted, but don’t think the tznius issues will disappear. as we see in schools with uniforms, girls get very creative when it comes to exerting their individuality, i.e: skirt length, fit, accessories. unless we impose a one-size-fits-all floor length burlap sack? oh, wait, it’s called a sari. hmmmm. think the muslims have something going???
“beauty is in teh (sic) eyes of the beer-holder “
True – if you drink enough beer, everyone will be beautiful.
Some people who are innately not physically model-perfect, come to look more attractive to people as they get to know them and realize the beauty of their hearts. I have a relative who married into the family, and at first meeting, I never saw what the person who married this relative found attractive. That is, until I actually spent time with this gentle yet strong, soft-spoken, kind, thoughtful, and loving person, and realized how very good-looking the person turned out to be.
oomis, VERY true!
Inner beauty is the ONLY beauty that counts.
pac, tell that to the guys. or more important, to their mothers.
Inner beauty is typically the only beauty that LASTS. But the problem is that many boys are looking primarily for the outer beauty at first meeting, so they don’t give themselves the opportunity to recognize the inner beauty. This is oen reason among many, that I oppose dates being made through the shadchan, as opposed to the boy and girl talking on the phone or (dare I say it????) on-line and setting up a date themselves. Many a fellow has been attracted to a girl’s personality before ever meeting her in person. And if he is already in a positive mindset about her warmth, her humor, her intelligence, he may be less preoccupied with her looks when they meet, or more predisposed to liking those looks.
Many people who are not “pretty” in the classical sense, still manage to be “head turners”. I believe it is a combination of their usually, outgoing, personality, their knack of innately knowing what clothing looks well on them, the way they carry themselves and their over all self-confidence. I have known many woman like this and the best way that I can describe them is “glamorous” .
duhhh
Ooomis – This is oen reason among many, that I oppose dates being made through the shadchan, as opposed to the boy and girl talking on the phone or (dare I say it????) on-line and setting up a date themselves.
I have been wondering about why dates are set-up by shadchan (as of the last decade or so). I assumed it was to avoid the boy and girl remaining friendly afterwords. Is that correct?
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