December 15, 2011 6:01 am at 6:01 am #837965NechomahParticipant
I would like to make a comment on something I saw that ARWSF posted. “I never even saw the OB/GYN. Her job is to hear the patient’s concerns and take action by referring people for evaluation if they are interested in helping themselves.”
You say that you “spoke” to your OB/Gyn after feeling down after a baby and things going on afterwards and received the referral.
In all honesty, I would change OB’s. These are the doctors who see women postpartum and should be able to judge, upon speaking with them in person for a few minutes, whether the woman is suffering from normal baby blues or more chronic postpartum depression, which would require more aggressive intervention, possibly on the part of a psychiatrist. I’m not sure how long after birth you are, but we all know that it is a stressful time getting you and the new baby adjusted to being in the family, especially if you have a few other small children to deal with along with the new one. You’re tired, you’re not sleeping at night, the baby wants to be fed all the times, all the wonderful, but tiring situations that coming along with having a new baby in the house.
Some women have lots of outside support during this transition (parents to send meals, younger siblings to come take the little ones out in the afternoon, neighbors to talk to) and manage this transition with little more than some bags under their eyes that testify to their sleepless nights. On the other hand, many of us have little to no support and have to manage all on our own. This can seem like an overwhelming task for some. Everybody reacts to sleep deprivation differently and when we’re overtired it can make everything else during our day seem more difficult as well. If a woman doesn’t feel like she’s managing for normal reasons, she may be overtired and need some more support (which she may have available but not be thinking clearly enough to ask for it), she may need someone to talk to (just shmoozing with a friend while nursing the baby when the other kids are at school can help), or she may actually have postpartum depression or even worse.
I think it is the job of the OB/Gyn to spend a few minutes and speak to the patient face-to-face to see how stressed she looks and hear more what she has to say than can be communicated on the phone in a brief conversation and decide what the next course of action is. I’m not sure how you phrased your conversation with her, but it could have sounded like you just wanted to be handed over to a specialist in these matters and that’s what your doctor did for you.
I think it’s almost like asking a Rov a shaila. If you are looking for a heter, the Rov will surely hear this in how you phrase your shaila and you will probably get a psak that fits this.
BTW, I think it’s very good that you looked into the side effects and after effects of taking Zoloft and you should continue to advocate for yourself in all of your medical concerns. Hopefully you will manage your adjustment as well without the meds and the transition period will wind down and you won’t have to deal with the Zoloft issue in any form.December 15, 2011 6:18 am at 6:18 am #837967
PBA -“Just they should be going for therapy instead of (or at least in addition to) medication.”
Of course they should, but what if they don’t want to?
As the Doc or other practioner -do you say too bad on you -No goodies (meds) for you or do you prescribe meds anyway? In this country you can’t force a patient to do the right thing. So if s/he won’t go for therapy, you can’t be unethical & withold the meds that you know s/he needs!December 15, 2011 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #837968
Please watch the video on medications presented in the News forum.December 15, 2011 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #837969
is anyone here working with real data, or is this all a straw man…December 15, 2011 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #837970
soliek, interestingly enough there is a video on the subject in the news section presented by two professionals, a social worker and a Psychiatrist.December 15, 2011 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #837971
The thread is too long for you to probably keep track of our interaction, but all I have to say is, “You have to be kidding.”
PS. We all know board members and executives in all fields sit in their board meetings devising strategies/policies on how they can be nicer, more altruistic, philanthropic, and helpful to the public they wish to serve. ; )December 15, 2011 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #837972
Nechamah, “I’m not sure how you phrased your conversation with her, but it could have sounded like you just wanted to be handed over to a specialist in these matters and that’s what your doctor did for you. ” (your statment)
I DID WANT TO BE IN THE HANDS OF A SPECIALIST FOR MOODS AND DEPRESSION TO ASSESS ME!!!! thats not the problem. I was only saying that fact to aries who had said something irrelevant.
My problem is that I would rather ‘work on myself’ meaning, eating the right foods, thinking the right thoughts, and exercising unless chas v’shulem I was like major depressive and severly unable to cope or something. I don’t think what I had called for medication.
And this brings me back to the first opening title of this thread. How common is it amongst frum women? Are we over using this medication? In your opinion is just about everyone on it?
Its like anti biotics right? Sure its necessary. Sure it cures. Sure it helps. But when is it being prescribed? How often administered? TOo much? Too much prescribing? Could the infection be treated with oil of oregano? LOLDecember 15, 2011 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #837973
oomis1105 – Because you happened across one quack -why are you paiting us all with one brush?
“I don’t believe in this type of over-prescribed therapy. Only a very few people are actually clinically depressed, but SO many are being prescribed Prozac and Zoloft”
Actually there are many people whom are clinically depressed. And most practioners Do Not over-prescribe like you said! Why don’t you do some research before you mouth off? “
Don’t hold back – tell me what you REALLY think! Contrary to your rather hostile sounding opinion, I am not mouthing off. I am relating a personal and extremely painful cautionary tale that when a doctor wants to immediately prescribe anti-depressants, it should only be after a FULL and thorough medical examination has ruled out a physiological cause for the depressive symptoms. If there IS such an underlying cause, prescribing such medication can actually KILL the patient, who has symptoms of depression because the thyroid, adrenal glands, and functions of other parts of the body are being supressed due to PHYSICAL illness. My mother could have died in a few more weeks of no thyroid or adrenal hormones in her body. At the VERY least, she would have gone irreversibly blind, because the tumor was growing too close to her optic nerve. Had the doctor notified us she was physically ill, she would have gotten treatment six months sooner, and the quality of her life (and ours, as we watched her suffering)for all those months would have been vastly different. If someone is mouthing off, it is not I. And I happen to know there is an epidemic of frum teenage girls on Prozac and other SSRIs in my neighborhood. They cannot ALL be clinically depressed, because if they are, it’s uch und vey.December 15, 2011 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #837974
exactly oomis. My “down mood” for example is treatable by diet, exercise and CTB. BUt the “lazy route” is take pills. BUt as you said it can “actually kill a patient”. People need to be more aware of this.December 16, 2011 1:17 am at 1:17 am #837975
BT guy – “You have to be kidding.
PS. We all know board members and executives in all fields sit in their board meetings devising strategies/policies on how they can be nicer, more altruistic, philanthropic, and helpful to the public they wish to serve.”
No, I’m not kidding. Yes there are docs who give meds for no good reason, perhaps to profit, but this is a very, very small percentage. And e/o knows pharm companies are just that – companies. In a capital system -the purpose of companies is to make money, but they can’t prescribe.December 16, 2011 1:48 am at 1:48 am #837976
OOmis – “Don’t hold back – tell me what you REALLY think! Contrary to your rather hostile sounding opinion, I am not mouthing off.”
This is my point of contention. Here is what you posted:
“I don’t believe in this type of over-prescribed therapy. Only a very few people are actually clinically depressed, but SO many are being prescribed Prozac and Zoloft, that it is not a joke.”
Who are you to make blanket statements from a personal story that happened to you?
Do you even know the numbers of people in this country that have depression?
“And I happen to know there is an epidemic of frum teenage girls on Prozac and other SSRIs in my neighborhood. They cannot ALL be clinically depressed, because if they are, it’s uch und vey.”
Look up the numbers of people whom have clinical depression in this country before you comment!
What I’ll give you is the total amt. of people with mental illnesses or problems. About 20% of the US population have some sort of mental illness or problem. (That’s why we got stuck having a course in Psych, as part of the medical curriculum, besides the psychology courses we had to take for prereq.)
Most don’t even know they have a mental illness and from those that do -most will never seek treatment for it. Do you know what 20% is – 1 out of how many?
And by the way, SSRI’s are given for other mental illnesses besides depression.
“I am relating a personal and extremely painful cautionary tale that when a doctor wants to immediately prescribe anti-depressants, it should only be after a FULL and thorough medical examination has ruled out a physiological cause for the depressive symptoms.”
Because you got burnt, so now you have the right to lecture anyone whom practices medicine???
E/o who practices medicine knows when to work something up and when not!
You don’t have to work up depression every single time, no matter what you say!!!December 16, 2011 1:56 am at 1:56 am #837977
ARWSF -“BUt the “lazy route” is take pills.”
This is what most medical practioners do -call it what you want.
Last I heard, nooone is being forced to seek medical care by MD’s, DO’s, PA’s or NP’s, it’s a free country. You can go to anyone or anything for help with your problems. But most people here in the U.S. CHOOSE to seek medical care from those type of practioners!December 16, 2011 4:27 am at 4:27 am #837978
Health, it is obvious this is a very sore point and hot-button issue with you, though I am not sure why. Are you a psychiatrist? I disagree with you on virtually all counts, and that is my prerogative. You have your own agenda regarding the issue of drugging people, and sorry, but I am not convinced that what you say is any more correct than what I have to say. I did not make blanket statements. I made statements based on personal experience that a well-known and respected doctor prescribed dangerous meds to a patient, my mom O”H, who had absolutely no need for them, because he did not look for a physical cause FIRST.
I have talked to many parents in my neighborhood or its environs, and virtually ALL of them either have kids on anti-anxiety medication or something to treat bi-polar disorder/depression, or know family members’ or friends’ kids who are taking these drugs. It simply cannot be that all those kids need to be medicated. Bury your head in the sand if you like, but the fact that you disagree does not necessarily mean I am wrong.
I am not looking at the total amount of people in this country who actually suffer from Clinical Depression. My interest is in Jewish children and adults who are irresponsibly given powerful drugs, and are not fully informed as to what can happen as a result of their long-term use. BTW, 20% is one out of five – not so hard to do the math. And who else would be likely to think to be concerned about a problem, except for someone who has already been burned?December 16, 2011 5:18 am at 5:18 am #837979
Oomis, before you go jumping down everyone’s throat please understand that there are other conditions aside from clinical depression that are medical and require anti-anxiety and/or anti-depression drugs. These type of drugs are so named for convenience sake and are used for various different illnesses. Please as I asked before watch the video to hear the explanations from the professionals.
You particularly had a very scary experience and you are entitled to be wary. However, it is a parent’s responsibility to determine whether or not their child was diagnosed properly and whether their doctor has their child’s best interest at heart or not. The parent can tell whether the medication is making an improvement in the child’s life or not. If the child has a chemical imbalance and the medication is helping to balance the child and help the child to function at his/her best capacity then there is a need for the medication and it is a benefit to the child along with other therapeutic measures depending on what the diagnosis is. On the other hand, if the medication is NOT doing anything to help the child then it is up to the parent to advocate for that child and wean that child off the medication with the help of the doctor. If the doctor does not agree, the parent has the right to get a second opinion.
The fact that you had a bad experience does NOT negate the fact that there are many, many kids who have issues and can been helped with medication. There are also many school officials who push parents to put their children on medication for their own convenience even though the kids don’t necessarily need it. Having said that there are also many parents who are in denial and delay helping their children because they refuse to believe that there is anything wrong with the child and refuse to give them medication that can really help them.
So yes it is a very touchy subject and the best a person can do, is NOT put ALL their trust in any physician and be an educated consumer. Ask questions, do research and go for second opinions. For those who are against taking medication you are entitled to your opinion, but for anyone who is on medication and functions to their utmost ability because of it, your arguments don’t hold water. Because for them life was just not productive or satisfying without being able to function at their highest capacity or to their utmost ability.
If you don’t know anyone with Bi-polar disorder then you are lucky to not see a person suffer two very, very different and unmanageable extremes. One in which the patient can be up for four days in a row convinced that they can possibly conquer the world, fix the world’s problems, help everyone, fix everything, do anything, etc without sleep or food. Just going, going, going like the energizer bunny until they crash to the other extreme where they can’t get their face off the floor and they would rather die than make the effort to move to the bed, take a shower, eat or even answer the phone. However, when they are on their medication, in most cases, you wouldn’t even know that they suffer the illness. They are not crazy and they don’t have a mental disorder, they have a medical condition, where the wiring in their brain is misfiring because there are chemicals in their brain that are either too high, too low, or just out of balance like other psychiatric conditions. These issues cannot be cured by other methods because other methods do nothing to replace or rebalance the chemicals that are out of sync.
The professionals in the video explain that once a patient is chemically balanced for whatever the condition is, they can then be helped through therapy to function normally again and get their life back into working order.December 16, 2011 5:49 am at 5:49 am #837980Charles ShortMember
On one hand I’m tempted to condemn the psychiatric profession in the harshest possible way. On the other hand, I’m tempted to take psychiatric medicine to help me deal with this world. I’ve studied this so much; even a formal medical school class; that I’m tempted to think I know something. And that something is that not even the best doctors know anything abut what they are doing. The brain is too complex to fathom. I think there are a lot of parallels with incense on the altar of gold in the synthesis, metabolic processing, and monetary reward of these drugs.December 16, 2011 7:45 am at 7:45 am #837981
I agree charles short. I want to say with tears in my eyes sorrowfully, and sentimentally “Good bye zoloft, its been the best 2 weeks of my life, that I can remember in a long time”….
BUt seriously, there is too high a price to pay.
aries, pleae put up the link or tell us how to google it.December 16, 2011 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #837982
“And that something is that not even the best doctors know anything abut what they are doing”
yep. psychiatric medicine is at best educated guesswork for world class professionals let alone doctor shopping housewives…December 16, 2011 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #837983
soliek i think what we can conclude from this very passionate discussion is that there is reason and justification for popping pills if necessary however one should not go looking for it because it does have potentially dangerous side effects.
there is some veracity to the claim that psychiatrists are script-happy, however they are not the only ones at fault…people DO doctor shop and ultimately the only data upon which a psychiatrist can rely when deciding whether or not to prescribe medication to a patient is what that patient decides to tell him.December 16, 2011 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #837984
Charles Short & ARWSF – You can dream up any consipracy theory you feel like -doesn’t mean it’s true. You can do as much research you want and the pt. doesn’t have to take medication or go to regular medical care. It’s a free country, but stop trying to convince the whole world that you are right!December 16, 2011 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #837985
Aries – +1December 16, 2011 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #837986
Health: actually the part about psychiatrists making at best educated guesses is accurate…December 16, 2011 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #837987
Oomis, before you go jumping down everyone’s throat please understand “
Whoops! Did I do that? I was simply responding to Health, who actually jumped down MY throat for posting about what happened to my mother O”H, as a warning to people to not accept at face value that you are clinically depressed and need SSRI meds.
I stand by what I said. A doctor has the obligation and medical responsibility to ascertain that no PHYSICAL cause is responsible for the symptoms that APPEAR to be depression, before dispensing Prozac,Lamictal,Zoloft, etc. I don’t think you and I are so far apart in our opinions. BTW, I am well-acquainted with people who are bi-polar. A relative of mine was manic-depressive, and a close friend of mine has BPD. I have observed the highs and the lows, some rapid cycling of same.
As to the responsibility of a patient or family member to be on top of things with the doctor – you can only go by what your (trusted) longtime doctor tells you to be the case. My mother’s doctor was very adamant about her having clinical depression, and so were all the many, many doctors who examined her in the hospital. NOT ONE of them ever asked us if she had an MRI, or suggested this should be done, to rule out brain tumors. Her own doctor KNEW her blood tests were odd given her age, BUT NEVER MENTIONED this to us. Are we supposed to be psychic? Had we been told of her elevated prolactin levels, we would have done exactly what we did when he finally DID tell us six months later – we would have questioned its significance and what needed to be done to further test her.
I don’t and never have purported to speak for ALL people. I just want people to learn from our situation to NOT accept at face value that someone is clinically depressed, without checking through all other possibilities that could mimic the symptoms. If you need thyroid medication and take insulin, it will probably not be in your best interests, to say the least. If you are automatically given SSRIs, when a proper exam would show that you really need thyroid medication, that is also not in your best interests. We can only advocate for someone when we are given the tools and full disclosure of medical tests results.December 16, 2011 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #837988
soliek – It depends on the situation. A lot of time the only tool a Shrink has in making a diagnosis is the history. Histories can be inaccurate esp. if the patient has mental problems. But most try to do the best they can. Some will see the pt. a few times before they decide what illness the pt. probably has.December 16, 2011 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #837989
OOmis -“responsibility to ascertain that no PHYSICAL cause is responsible for the symptoms that APPEAR to be depression.”
Again the lectures from s/o who knows more than us. Yes, this is one of our responsibilities, but sometimes this can be ascertained from the history alone.
“As to the responsibility of a patient or family member to be on top of things with the doctor – you can only go by what your (trusted) doctor tells you to be the case.”
Wrong – did you ever hear of getting a second opinion? So you and your family didn’t keep your responsibility, but you lecture e/o in the medical field what their responsibility is because one guy made a mistake!
“and so were all the many, many doctors who examined her in the hospital. NOT ONE of them ever asked us if she had an MRI, or suggested this should be done, to rule out brain tumors.”
This is not possible to judge up, unless you know what the reason she was hospitalized for and what type of docs saw her and for what reason. It’s not the responsibility of hospital personnel to play Primary care, unless this is the reason she was hospitalized for!December 16, 2011 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #837990December 16, 2011 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #837991
“soliek – It depends on the situation. A lot of time the only tool a Shrink has in making a diagnosis is the history. Histories can be inaccurate esp. if the patient has mental problems. But most try to do the best they can. Some will see the pt. a few times before they decide what illness the pt. probably has.”
agreed. i wasnt knocking the doctors, i was just pointing out that the field and profession is still youngDecember 16, 2011 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #837992
“Again the lectures from s/o who knows more than us. Yes, this is one of our responsibilities, but sometimes this can be ascertained from the history alone”
I don’t know what bee got in your bonnet, Health, or why you are responding to me in such an arrogant manner. It is mamesh not becoming of you. I am done with this conversation with you. I wish you a good Shabbos.
To the rest of the readers, please do not blindly accept at face value what any doctor tells you, and especially when it comes to mental health issues. There could be an underlying physiological reason for the apparent emotional disorder, and when THAT illness is treated, the depression could disappear. As soon as my mom was given hormone replacement for her non-functioning thyroid and adrenal glands, she was her old self overnight.
When someone truly DOES suffer from emotional illness that cannot be eased through cognitive or behavioral therapy, and medication is warranted, then unquestionably that is the route to go, or some combination of meds and therapy may be needed. This is not a lecture. It is my conclusion, drawn from experience. I thought this was a forum where one could express an opinion.December 16, 2011 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #837993
Oomis +1, Agreed. Be your own advocate, ask questions and get answers.December 18, 2011 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #837994
OOmis -“To the rest of the readers, please do not blindly accept at face value what any doctor tells you, and especially when it comes to mental health issues. There could be an underlying physiological reason for the apparent emotional disorder, and when THAT illness is treated, the depression could disappear. As soon as my mom was given hormone replacement for her non-functioning thyroid and adrenal glands, she was her old self overnight.
When someone truly DOES suffer from emotional illness that cannot be eased through cognitive or behavioral therapy, and medication is warranted, then unquestionably that is the route to go, or some combination of meds and therapy may be needed. This is not a lecture. It is my conclusion, drawn from experience. I thought this was a forum where one could express an opinion.”
Now compare this post to your original. Had you posted this in the beginning -I’d have no problem with it. This post you don’t come to any faulty conclusions on e/o in the medical field. You post your feelings based on an incident that happenned to you and you’re telling people to take heed. There was no reason to put down others in the medical field because of your story.December 18, 2011 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #837995
I think the main lesson to learn is that if you go to a electrician he’ll tell you you need fresh wiring, a contractor will blaim the rotting beams, your Mashgiach will blaim your Shmiras Hasdorim, an eye doctor will find your stomach ache in your retina, and a podiatrist can prescribe new shoes for you appendicides. A Psychiatrist prescribes medicine and a therapist gives therapy. Seldom will someone tell you that the problem lies in someone else’s field. Not nessecarily because of haughtiness. They just look within their own specrum to find the solution.
To Health and Aries: It is unfair to try to shift blaim on a patient who relied on a doctor. Since you are in the field you know what to look out for and what a doctor will or won’t tell you. But it is very narrow to expect everyone else to have known what your experience taught you.
It sounds like when you visit a government building for the first time and the employees laugh at you for not knowing your way around. Believe me, it is a common reaction. I often see this in any business that a new customer gets mocked for not having worked at the place for ten years. Now that I point it out, please take heed and respond accordingly and thoughtfully to someone who feels like a victim.
Besides, when someone is hurt or suffering, that is not the time for rebuke, even if it would be deserved.December 18, 2011 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #837996
If you’re happy, I’m happy.December 18, 2011 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #837997
HaLeiVi, Not at all, it is very important for people to share their experience so others can learn to advocate for themselves and learn to ask questions. The doctor/patient relationship is not as it used to be when doctors actually had the time to sit and talk with the patient and give information. Today, if the patient or family member doesn’t ask, the doctor doesn’t tell or assumes that they understand or will look it up. They just don’t have the time to give each patient because they are limited by the amount of patients they need to see in a day. Everything is controlled by the insurance companies. Patients are made to feel “tiny” and almost on a conveyor belt system. Move them in and out quickly so we can be efficient. Find the answers and get the patient out of the bed because the insurance won’t pay for the hospital stay. Don’t call in specialists unless it is an emergency because the insurance companies are going to dock the doc for spending/wasting insurance money on unnecessary expenditures and test.
We are not trying to fault anyone, neither the patient or the doctor. Doctors can be wrong, no doubt about it, they are only human and they do make mistakes. So we need to understand that, they are NOT G-d, they are only human and we need to be aware and take our own responsibility seriously. We are as much accountable for our health as the health care providers we choose. We can’t choose what nisyonos Hashem sends our way, we can’t choose what illnesses befall us, but we can choose who we trust with our care. And we can control the questions we ask. As with everything else we have to be a smart and educated consumer and not just be lead blindly, ask questions and then choose wisely. Everyone has the same right and the same availability to call the organizations set up to give referrals and ask questions of them. They did their homework and legwork already for you.
And if we are NOT comfortable with the treatment we don’t risk our health or the health of our family members we get a second opinion or choose another option. We don’t just sit meekly by and deteriorate only to blame the doctor later. The doctor sees many patients and tries his/her best to give the best care to many at one time. But you or your loved one are the only sick person that you are dealing with at one time and you have to take your responsibility seriously as well. It is NOT a matter of fault or blame, too late is too late. Be smart and learn how to be your own best advocate.December 19, 2011 12:31 am at 12:31 am #837998
aries – +1December 19, 2011 12:55 am at 12:55 am #837999
HaLeiVi -I never blamed the pt. or the pt’s. family. What upset me was the attitude – that us medical professionals don’t look for other causes before we diagnose a pt. with mental illness. Ruling out organic or physical causes is one of the basic things we do before such a diagnosis. Is it possible this guy made a mistake? Sure.
Should you warn people about this type of mistake? Why not?
But just realize most medical professionals will not make such a mistake.
Just to end with a story -Many moons ago before I really studied medicine as a Bochur I happenned to be really sick. So I went to the doctor and he gave me a script for antibiotics. I always was interested in medicine and I knew a drop -so I asked him how does he know it’s bacterial and not viral, (even though I had a double ear infection)? (FYI -ear infections can also be viral.) He yelled at me and pulled up my shirt and said see that rash -that’s scarlet fever (Strep infection). Needless to say, I slithered away with my tail between my legs.
But in all reality, now as a practioner, it’s not such a bad question to ask. Why? Because unfortunately, a lot of practioners will give antibiotics without it being a clear cut bacterial infection. While this practice is iffy, giving antibiotics when it’s basically a clear cut viral infection is bad medical care. And you will even nowadays find some that still do this!December 19, 2011 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #838000
I dont want you to confuse the public’s cricitism of the facts, with your role in the field of health.. It seems you are in the health field and are highly knowledgeable and conscientious.
That still has nothing to do with the over prescribing of America. It is a fact and doctors and pharmaceutical companies are all conspiring to put people on more and more drugs that should not even have approval, and with side effects worse than what they are suppose to alleviate. And in far too many cases, pills are being take off the market after it is too late and too many people and families have suffered. Drugs come and go in trends and we can list those drugs endlessly.
I work in the field on education. There is a problem with that field. I can be objective about the problems of social promotion of kids, and teachers who “tell” rather than “teach” or those who even dont like kids. But I wont cover up those problems feeling it would be a reflection on me, personally.
Back to our point. You dont have to ask me. You can ask any medical doctor who also practices alternative-complementary medicine, read the news, see the class action lawsuits, and look at the statistics of those being given things like statins, vicodin, ritalin, a whole host of mood altering drugs like zoloft, just for walking in the door with any semblance of a problem.December 19, 2011 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #838001
I know and agree with Health that the doctors job is to help, heal, and prescribe medication that will do just that.
So I am not really upset and blaming the doctor. I am thankful that they are there, and thankful for the man who invented SSRI’s. But I just want people out there to know the actual dangers of getting hooked on them, because there can be serious side effects of trying to get off them. In other words, unless you are severely depressed or OCD or severly disabled by anxiety disorders, please reconsider popping that pill when you could otherwise heal thy self by proper exercise, and self improvement books like “the feeling good handbook” based on CBT techniques.
I during the course of SSRI treatment was so in love with it, I thought “my goodness, is life really suppose to be this smooth a flow?” However, it comes with a high price.
DO YOUR RESEARCH PEOPLE!!! …and never blame the doctors.
I love physicians. I wish I had have become one. But they DO NOT TELL YOU EVERYTHING…neither do the pharm.companies.December 19, 2011 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #838002
BTGuy -I understand your point, but I really don’t agree.
Modern medicine, which is really only less than a hundred years old, has basically evolved to – here is a pill -take it and your problems are over. Alternative medicine has been practiced throughout the ages. Has it really ever helped anyone? I doubt it. It’s more like the placebo effect. Why? Because look at the overall length of a life. The lifespan has increased tremendously in the world due to modern medicine. It was increased by the invention of antibiotics. At the turn of the century the leading cause of death was pneumonia. Now it’s cardiovascular disease. People didn’t live long enough for all things including all the risk factors to even produce cardiovascular disease.
So over prescribing is a matter of perspective. We are in the age where we can develop new technology, so there is a rush. On one hand the need is more imperative than taking precaution. On the other hand we need to have some precautions. Most people who are involved in modern medicine are interested in helping their fellow man. But how do you do this? We live in a capital system – if you want pharm companies to develop drugs -there must be a financial incentive for them to do it.
Does this financial incentive sometimes allow dangerous drugs to pass through? Sure, it does. But what I’ve found in reality is that the development of new drugs takes way too long in this country. In Europe, they are much quicker. The AIDS epidemic forced the gov. to allow some drugs a quicker process. Because of this – basically AIDS isn’t a death sentence the way it used to be. People are now living out their lives with these drugs, almost normal life spans.
So what makes the News? Only when s/o dies because of some drug that slipped through the system. It never makes the news when s/o dies of cancer or other disease and this particular cancer or disease they have developed a cure or treatment for it, but the patient can’t get their hands on it due to the red tape by the FDA – holding it up for years!December 19, 2011 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #838003
I understand your point, but I also dont agree.
Certainly, even a casual listening to such alternative medical doctors as Dr Ronald Hoffman or Dr Ash, etc. reveals countless success stories of people who were able to even get off prescription drugs and avoid the secondary complications caused by nothing other than prescription drugs.
The real point here is not the merits or drawbacks to prescription drugs. The point was that is seems so many people are on zoloft these days.
I will add that prescriptions for all kinds of mood-altering pills are given out to basically healthy people. I would add that ritalin and prescribing numerous other drugs (even over the counter) for daily use for children is through the roof. I would add that statins, from what I hear, are given out like candy. I would add diet pills, not so harmless, are given out by doctors before asking patients to try diet and exercise as a recommendation first, etc..etc…etc.
You believe the high rate of prescription drugs are based on a valid need, which coincidentally happens to be high, and there is no variable regarding marketing strategies between pharmaceutical salespeople that impact upon the physicians. I believe different.
Perhaps someone here is in pharmaceutical sales and can let us know if they feel they impact doctors along their regular sales routes, with certain drugs via sales pitches and incentives. Yes, incentives.December 20, 2011 4:03 am at 4:03 am #838004
Actually in the book I am reading on CBT by Dr. David Burns “The feeling good handbook” which is like the second most recommended book by psychiatrists to their patients on a reading list out of 1,000 most recommended books…. He says that once in Boston or some place around there, he was at a convention with pharmaceutical companies and their representatives and doctors and there was a pharmaceutical salesman who said a joke off the record that their policy is “Don’t ask- don’t tell” when it comes to side effects off some of the psychotropic drugs. And that means that sure there are known seide effects, but its better not to relate that information if they are not anyways asking you about it.December 20, 2011 4:11 am at 4:11 am #838005
drugs are osur midoraisah.December 20, 2011 4:12 am at 4:12 am #838006
I think there is misunderstanding between the pharmaceutical companies pushing their product and offering incentives for prescribing their drugs “over” other choices and over prescribing drugs. There is a difference. The point being if a patient needs a prescription they try to sell the doctor on using their brand of medication as opposed to their competition and that is why they leave samples for both doctor and patient to try. They don’t make money off of samples, and doctors are not supposed to give out bunches of samples, only one sample to get started or to try before writing the script. However, we all know doctors who try to help patients who can’t afford the script and hand out samples as much as they can.December 20, 2011 4:20 am at 4:20 am #838007
actually drugs are a mitzvah. thats what my rav said. and hes a big posekDecember 20, 2011 4:39 am at 4:39 am #838008
BTGuy -“I understand your point, but I also dont agree.
Certainly, even a casual listening to such alternative medical doctors as Dr Ronald Hoffman or Dr Ash, etc. reveals countless success stories of people who were able to even get off prescription drugs and avoid the secondary complications caused by nothing other than prescription drugs.”
I have met many people like you that have been brainwashed by the alternative medicine quacks. I’ve listened to those guys on the radio too. I’m not against certain types of alternative therapies, but the concept of their way is right and modern medicine is wrong is just a hoax! The place for alternative medicine is in addition too or where modern medicine has no cure or treatment, so there is nothing to lose. These guys are more phoney than the Pharm companies. They make it sound as their way of medicine is a new thing and it’s the best thing since sliced bread. I already posted that these therapies have been around for hundreds or thousands of years, and the only thing that changed the human being life span was the advent of modern medicine.
“The real point here is not the merits or drawbacks to prescription drugs. The point was that is seems so many people are on zoloft these days.”
So why does this bother you?
“I will add that prescriptions for all kinds of mood-altering pills are given out to basically healthy people. I would add that ritalin and prescribing numerous other drugs (even over the counter) for daily use for children is through the roof. I would add that statins, from what I hear, are given out like candy. I would add diet pills, not so harmless, are given out by doctors before asking patients to try diet and exercise as a recommendation first, etc..etc…etc.”
This I disagree with. Zoloft and mood -altering drugs are not given out to healthy people. These people suffer from mental illness. Same with Ritalin. Statins are given out to prevent Cardiovascular disease. And who says PCP’s don’t first tell their pts. to diet & exercise? Some pts. can’t and some don’t want to, then there becomes the need to manage them with medications.
Are you denying the fact that there is such a thing as mental illness?
“You believe the high rate of prescription drugs are based on a valid need, which coincidentally happens to be high, and there is no variable regarding marketing strategies between pharmaceutical salespeople that impact upon the physicians. I believe different.
Perhaps someone here is in pharmaceutical sales and can let us know if they feel they impact doctors along their regular sales routes, with certain drugs via sales pitches and incentives. Yes, incentives.”
I never said there is “no variable regarding marketing strategies between pharmaceutical salespeople that impact upon the physicians”.
Yes, there is such a thing as Pharm reps and they do give presents to docs -mainly food. So do you really think now the medical professionals start doing unethical things? Is this what you have been brainwashed to think?
In the rest of the world esp. politics, people buy others with cash (bribes), (they call it donations to political parties -they even allow certain types of money called “soft” money -whatever this means) this doesn’t happen in the medical field. The only thing that occurs with these soft presents is that when the practioner decides to write a script for the pt., he/she will pick the company that they like. 99.99% of practioners Will Not do anything Unethical such as writing a script to a pt. which the pt. doesn’t need!
I have a question to you -how come there are so many people in the Frum community that believe in Alternative medicine, much more than the rest of the nation?December 20, 2011 4:42 am at 4:42 am #838009
wow that looks like a copy and paste job if i ever saw oneDecember 20, 2011 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #838010
We are all over the place on this.
Are there doctors who are more than worth their weight in gold? Absolutely, BH.
Is the medical establishment acting ethically and properly in all cases? Clearly not!
One fact does not undermine another.
But Health, what is your opinion on the latest trends I am hearing about?:
1. Giving people some sort of cholesterol prescription even if their numbers are good; to be used as a preventative. It seems entire office buildings are on it and it causes weight gain.
2. Putting people on a cocktail of multiple high blood pressure prescriptions – as a first response- to blood pressure levels that a decade ago were considered normal, and today are called pre-hypertension, or something like that, again, as a first response to the problem.
Finally, because there are some awesome doctors, no one should need, who are truly great, does not mean we should take offense at the pushing of pills by many doctors who are influenced by pharmaceutical salespeople to prescribe the latest flavor of the month/year.
Also, we should take a look at the drugs that FDA says are ready to go to the public, only to find out the poisons they contain, the damage they cause leading to recalls (or not), and the great expense related to the importance of the drug (supply and demand).
I am sure if there were undercover investigations, the pharm/medical establishment, as a whole, would not come up clean. I believe prescriptions are not given out truly based on scientific determinism.December 20, 2011 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #838011
BTGuy -“Is the medical establishment acting ethically and properly in all cases? Clearly not!”
This I don’t believe. Do you have any proof to this? Or are you referring to a few bad apples? Again most medical professionals are on the up & up.
To say differently is to believe in all these conspiracy theories that are out there.
“But Health, what is your opinion on the latest trends I am hearing about?:
1. Giving people some sort of cholesterol prescription even if their numbers are good; to be used as a preventative. It seems entire office buildings are on it and it causes weight gain.
2. Putting people on a cocktail of multiple high blood pressure prescriptions – as a first response- to blood pressure levels that a decade ago were considered normal, and today are called pre-hypertension, or something like that, again, as a first response to the problem.”
You have to be more specific. I don’t know exactly what you are talking about. But if you want me to guess – I’d say this is research. There are theories out there -that people wouldn’t get so much Cardiovascular disease if even avg. people were given these meds. So I would assume that people put on cholesterol and/or BP drugs, that you’d mentioned, are part of some study.
Research is done to find out if your hypothesis is true or not. As far as I know, they haven’t changed the guidelines of when these drugs should be prescribed, as of yet.
“Finally, because there are some awesome doctors, no one should need, who are truly great, does not mean we should take offense at the pushing of pills by many doctors who are influenced by pharmaceutical salespeople to prescribe the latest flavor of the month/year.”
Whether the practioner decides to push the latest flavor of the month like you say, he/she would never give it to a pt. that doesn’t have some sort of medical problem and this issue needs medication. Sometimes a practioner will push the latest & the greatest, not necessarily because he/she believes the Pharm rep., but because he/she doesn’t know. So how does he/she find out if it’s really like the Rep. says? They try it out on their pts. This isn’t using their pts. as guniea pigs because this drug has already been approved by the gov.!
“Also, we should take a look at the drugs that FDA says are ready to go to the public, only to find out the poisons they contain, the damage they cause leading to recalls (or not), and the great expense related to the importance of the drug (supply and demand).”
This is a conspiracy theory. Almost all drugs approved are safe for use. I already posted that sometimes there are a few that slip by. The gov. takes way too long to produce drugs for the market in this country.
“I am sure if there were undercover investigations, the pharm/medical establishment, as a whole, would not come up clean. I believe prescriptions are not given out truly based on scientific determinism.”
More conspiracy theories. But people who have these theories are Not just a bunch of quacks, whom nobody cares about. Our Gov. is afaid of them and that’s why it takes much longer here in the US to put drugs out to market, than other countries. I’m not like the gov. who is scared of public opinion and lawsuits. I believe it is a Chiyuv from the Torah to bring as much drugs as quickly as possible to market to save as much lives as possible. “Well if you do that -there would be tons of dangerous drugs on the market?” Obviously, I’m not advocating -No testing, just a lot quicker. Just like our gov. was more scared of the AIDS lobby (probably because this disease started amongst the Toeiva population and they yield the most clout – more than any other group) than these conspiracy theorists and therefore the AIDS drugs was pushed through the process real quickly -so also all drugs should be speeded up. And you didn’t end up finding any AIDS drugs that had dangerous side effects.December 20, 2011 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #838012
i think we should just declare all women insane and mandate anti-depressants…problem solved?December 20, 2011 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #838013
I highly doubt that doctors would push cholesterol drugs if the patient has no need for it. There is always an issue of side effects which could be liver damage for one and patients who are on cholesterol medication have to be monitored by blood tests. So no neither patients nor doctors would agree to do that just in case or for slightly elevated levels. A doctor would first recommend exercise and fish oils.
As far as medications for high blood pressure, that is also not the first defense. A doctor would also first recommend a change in diet, exercise, stress alleviation, etc. The doctor would also have to be monitoring that patient for High Blood pressure. In other words, it would have to be a series of visits that show that each time the patient came in, the pressure was high and the patient had headaches, etc. If the patient could not bring the pressure under control by themselves and there was no change at the next visit, which the doctor might have recommended be two weeks later to check, then the doctor might suggest medication because it should not be left untreated.
Doctors are walking a very fine tightrope since everything they do is scrutinized and could be reason for a malpractice suit or investigation. Medicate and that could be a problem. Don’t medicate and that could be a problem. Refer out and that could be a problem with the insurance company, don’t refer out and that could be a problem with malpractice. Doctors are not pill pushers and they are NOT playing games with the lives of their patients.
Again I say a patient has to be an educated consumer. Find a doctor you can trust and ask question. You have to be THE advocate for your own good health and welfare, the doctor is only a member of your team.December 20, 2011 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #838014
I heard of this accusation about companies bribing doctors, but that’s not really what this is about. I don’t think of the doctors as mean spirited. It is just a prevalent attitude that medicine is the best solution. I know of several such instances and I’m acquainted with the mindset. It is a known fact that your kid would get Ritalin for any slight inconvenience in discipline. When you see that half of our youngsters are on one medicine or another what does that tell you, that evolution failed?December 20, 2011 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #838015
Health, I share your sentiments regarding the all-doctors-are-crazy mantra. However, those two doctors you mentioned are, in fact, conventional doctors, as well. When you go to someone like that you know that he won’t ignore real medical needs.
Your mention of the life span of past years doesn’t really tip the scale. Nobody is trying to discredit the benefits of anti-biotics or surgery. Also, most alternative methods being given attention to weren’t around all these years. They are mostly new age stuff. In the past, people weren’t aware of what to keep away from.
Now I’ll agree that there is no tested way of knowing which alternative method works best, other than hearsay. And of course, you shouldn’d trade in going to a doctor for drinking Indian cow tea. But, if people were more open minded we would get the benefits of everything.
Conventional medicine has it’s limitations when it comes to auto-immune disease and other non-physical ailments. Perhaps Chinese medicine, One-brain, imagery, or who knows what else should be explored.
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