December 20, 2011 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #838016
HaLeiVi -“I heard of this accusation about companies bribing doctors, but that’s not really what this is about.”
And what percentage are these guys of the total?
“It is just a prevalent attitude that medicine is the best solution.”
It probably is.
“It is a known fact that your kid would get Ritalin for any slight inconvenience in discipline. When you see that half of our youngsters are on one medicine or another what does that tell you, that evolution failed?”
I know of No such fact. Do you have any proof to your claims?
“When you go to someone like that you know that he won’t ignore real medical needs.”
How do you know?
“But, if people were more open minded we would get the benefits of everything.
Conventional medicine has it’s limitations when it comes to auto-immune disease and other non-physical ailments. Perhaps Chinese medicine, One-brain, imagery, or who knows what else should be explored.”
If you read my previous posts, you would have seen that I hold that there is a place for Alternative medicine, just not instead of!December 20, 2011 10:44 pm at 10:44 pm #838017
Why do you ask how I know? I didn’t make any sting operation on them. That is their claim to fame. They call themselves integrated doctors.
I wasn’t trying to play up the bribing issue. It was in the news, and I have no idea how many doctors were involved and how terrible their actions were.
What I say about trigger happy doctors is based people I know, no great national study. But the large amount of medicated youngsters does point to over-drugging.December 21, 2011 2:27 am at 2:27 am #838018
HaLeiVi -“Why do you ask how I know? I didn’t make any sting operation on them. That is their claim to fame. They call themselves integrated doctors.”
The reality is that they will only play Alternative medical doc. I knew s/o who was both and did both, but eventually he moved more & more towards Alternative. Then he only did alternative. So those guys that were mentioned are famous Radio personalities -they are not practicing regular medicine. Maybe their MD knowledge helps them with diagnosis, but you aren’t getting a treatment plan based on regular medicine.
“I wasn’t trying to play up the bribing issue. It was in the news, and I have no idea how many doctors were involved and how terrible their actions were.”
Good, but my point was all the unethical Docs only add up to a very small percentage of e/o who practices medicine.
“What I say about trigger happy doctors is based people I know, no great national study. But the large amount of medicated youngsters does point to over-drugging.”
In my mind if these kids are being medicated and they don’t really have ADD or ADHD, is because of the parents. The parents are either too lazy to properly discipline their kids or they don’t know how. So they opt for the easy way out. They come to the practioner and claim their kid has ADHD, but the problem lies – before they will prescribe meds they have to fit the criteria. The parents know this and answer all the questions in the affirmative so they will get their kids on meds. This isn’t the docs’ fault. How should he/she know the parents are lying?
So if it’s true what you say that there are too many kids on drugs, this is because we raised a “Me” generation. The parents are too self-centered to even care about raising their own kids properly. But it could also be that nowadays there is more awareness to these childhood mental illnesses -so more parents are bringing in their child to be tested. In other words -there always was a lot of kids with ADD or ADHD, but noone -not the parents -not the docs knew about it.December 21, 2011 2:36 am at 2:36 am #838019
Health, you should also mention that many parents unfortunately go to the doctor with the fact that there kids will NOT be allowed back in school if he is NOT on medication.December 21, 2011 3:43 am at 3:43 am #838020
Aries – It could be that you’re right. The practioner has Rachmonus (mercy) on the family and bends the rules, even though he/she knows that the kid doesn’t have ADHD.December 21, 2011 4:07 am at 4:07 am #838021
Health, unfortunately there are many mechanchim who just don’t know how to control a class and were never trained to be mechanchim. They prefer to medicate the kids to gain control of them than work on their own skills in building respect and communication with their students.December 21, 2011 4:15 am at 4:15 am #838022
Aries – After all the topics here about our school system, it seems that the system is really messed up!
Where are the Rabbonim? Some know that we are on the net and are screaming about it, but how come they don’t know what’s going on in the Chinuch world?!?!?December 21, 2011 4:19 am at 4:19 am #838023
Health, unfortunately they do.December 21, 2011 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #838024
What a funny twist to a conversation. We’ll be Dan L’kaf Zchus all doctors, but Rabbonim…?December 21, 2011 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #838025
This thread has more twists in it than challah.
The arguments (not in a hostile sense), created to prove a point, have gone all over the place.
There are too many points which need clarification or are just wrong (except for mine, lol).
All in all, you picked up on a good point that I am sure was unintentional because that is what happens when an argument is created to prove a point, rather than the facts resulting in one’s point of view.December 21, 2011 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #838026
Halevi, lets get real here. Everyone has a hand in this, not just the doctors, not just the parents OK? The schools are as much to blame as anyone else, they are not blameless and they are NOT clueless so lets NOT leave them out of the equation. To do so is to be deaf, dumb and blind. If you want to be honest about a problem then we have to be honest about the problem and face up to the truth. You can’t choose who to blame because its ok to blame the parents but hands off when it comes to demanding that Roshei Yeshivas and mechanchim be accountable and responsible.
Parents and mechanchim share a partnership in raising and educating children. We have to look in both areas honestly when there is a problem and we have to hold both sides of the equation equally as responsible when they are successful and when they are not.December 21, 2011 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #838027
Aries – +10December 21, 2011 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #838028
Doctors have valuable skills and education. But these days they lack chochma.
The variable behind the prescription of all these drugs is hugely economic.
There is no way doctors are writing out the same scripts, so quickly, to such a large degree, not knowing what is going on with their colleagues and the pharmaceutical companies seeking profits.
In a land where tobacco companies are allowed to sell their deadly poison, the pharmaceutical companies have free reign to put out whatever they want, charge what they want, and get away with what they want unless they settle out of court. The only reason they run tests, etc., is because they make money on those projects. TONS of money.
Are people being drugged too easily? Absolutely! Are children being thrown into the pit of this alleged ADD/ADHD too quickly? Absolutely!
Hopefully no one needs such a thing, but hospitals send people home based solely on economic reasons rather than medical. Well, it is similar with doctors who are prone to find a pill for each person’s ailment; the reason is economics (profit).December 22, 2011 1:20 am at 1:20 am #838029
BTGuy -“Doctors have valuable skills and education. But these days they lack chochma.”
If you think they all are stupid, you have the choice in this country not to use them.
“The variable behind the prescription of all these drugs is hugely economic.”
So what? When you go to your grocery store -does he sell you his products at cost? You’re living in some dream world! But they aren’t giving people drugs they don’t need!
“There is no way doctors are writing out the same scripts, so quickly, to such a large degree, not knowing what is going on with their colleagues and the pharmaceutical companies seeking profits.”
So they know it -so what?
“In a land where tobacco companies are allowed to sell their deadly poison, the pharmaceutical companies have free reign to put out whatever they want, charge what they want, and get away with what they want unless they settle out of court. The only reason they run tests, etc., is because they make money on those projects. TONS of money.”
One lie after another, except for they “charge what they want”.
But we aren’t living in Communist Russia -our system is capitalism.
“Are people being drugged too easily? Absolutely! Are children being thrown into the pit of this alleged ADD/ADHD too quickly? Absolutely!”
Proove it! Until you do – I’ll say Absolutely NOT!
“Hopefully no one needs such a thing, but hospitals send people home based solely on economic reasons rather than medical.”
That’s because hospitals are a business.
“Well, it is similar with doctors who are prone to find a pill for each person’s ailment; the reason is economics (profit).”
What does one have to do with another? In spite of your conspiracy theory, Docs get No ($) kickbacks from Pharm companies! The reason they prescribe drugs is because this is called practicing medicine!
After reading your comical post, I think you got the Yom Tovim mixed up. It’s Channuka, not Purim!December 22, 2011 4:20 am at 4:20 am #838030
I have a serious question for all those that think doctors are getting a kick back from the pharmaceutical companies. How exactly are these drug companies keeping track of which doctor is prescribing how much of their drugs to which patients?
Do you think doctors keep a running list every time they write a prescription? Do the scripts go from the pharmacy to the drug companies? Do you think the pharmacy keeps a list of which doctor prescribed which drug for the drug company to see?
Please explain exactly how the doctor is benefiting and how this is monitored?December 22, 2011 5:11 am at 5:11 am #838031
And by the way, I have had the experience of really needing a certain prescription that my insurance company did NOT want to pay for. So insurance companies do not eagerly agree with doctors when it comes to just handing out drugs, and my doctor had to fight for me.December 22, 2011 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #838032
Just because we have different opinions does not mean you have a right to be rude and insulting. Try to be objective, if you can.
I will respond now but will try to avoid discussing things with you in the future as it is hard to keep our discussion going in a straight line.
I said: Doctors lack chochma (wisdom). You insinuated I think they were all stupid. I dont even have to respond to that one.
I said: Economics and profit is the big variable behind prescription drugs. You said, “So what?” Actually, you undermined and augmented your own argument.
I implied doctors are in cahoots and not acting solely on their own, based on their own assessments. You also said, “So they know it – so what?” The implication here is they are going along with trends (prescribing trends), to which you agreed. Again, you are not holding to your own original argument.
I suggested in a land where tobacco companies can sell poison, the pharm companies have free reign, and make tons of money. You said I was lying, but also that we are not communist Russia and we have free enterprise.
Regarding the ADD/ADHD classification being given out like tissues to someone who has a cold, you asked me to prove it. This issue is so prevalent, you can find other sources to prove it as there is too much to type on the subject. But you cannot attribute this concern to me only. You must be aware of the issue.
You also affirmed my point about hospitals basing how long someone stays on economics (and this often conflicts with what is medically sound), and said, “That’s because hospitals are a business.” Well, a doctors practice is not a business? Unless they are Albert Schweitzer or someone…Its a business….insurance…mercedes….second home…golf club dues….shoes with tassles…the whole nine yards. Doctors want to earn a good living and have a right to do so. Pharmaceutical companies and salespeople do not have that same right if it means putting chemicals in bodies without the utmost in care and discretion.
Basically, they can get rich putting the country on one pill or another. Do you really think the ethics are there to hold back? On a world-wide level? lol
All in all, you claim that prescription drugs are issued solely on medical decisions and there is no issue of over prescription of drugs in America for economic and financial reasons, AT THE SAME TIME you just supported the exact argument/reasons of those who claim there is a problem.
I apologize if my points were upsetting to you on a personal basis, but you agreed with them in your last post. Hopefully, whether people agree or not, they learn something from rigorous disagreement, which does not get personal.December 22, 2011 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #838033
I disagree on the Hospital issues. Hospitals keep patients as long as their insurance coverage will allow. Every patient and every coverage is different. Every hospital is forced to conform to what the insurance plan will pay for. It is NOT the choice of the hospital. The hospital will do everything in its power to make sure the patient can stay as long as they need to. If the beds are not filled the hospital does NOT make money. It is in their best interest to keep the beds filled. However, if they will not get paid by the insurance companies, they have no choice but to send the patients they can’t fight for, home.December 22, 2011 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #838034
Listen, I think it is more important we get along and are amicable, at least.
It does not matter to the world that we have different opinions, but if it leads to negative, that affects the world, and us as individuals.
I understand you are in the health field and I respect your knowledge and what you do. I am not in the field, and as a health care consumer, I guess it is natural we have differing outlooks on the same industry. And as you know, people can find supports for practically any point of view in the world.
Peace.December 22, 2011 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #838035
Aries, I agree with what you say. In fact, I don’t really ‘blame’ anyone, because it is an attitude that is prevalent rather than a desire to medicate. Most people form their opinion based on their occupation. An economist will be able convince you that WWII was caused by bad economics and an anthropologist will be able to convince you that it was caused by the desire to dominate, or as an offshoot of evolutionary science. Therefore, while a therapist will try to talk and coach a psyciatrist will think of medicine very quickly.
For the past 100 years or so we’ve the approach that man controls all. It is only natural in this atmosphere not to refrain from interfering with the body or mind.
My complaint was about the sudden shift, from the refrain of blaming a doctor to the ease of blaming Rabbonim. It just flowed so easily, three posts in a row, and agreed to so readily.December 22, 2011 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #838036
Halevi, it wasn’t a shift, it was a flow from the conversation. It wasn’t a matter of blame it was a matter of seeing where the source of the problem was. When you peel back the layers you have to be prepared to see the whole truth and not be blinded to what you don’t want to see.
No one is immune from making mistakes this includes doctors, pharmacies, hospitals, insurance companies, parents, mechanchim and Rabbonim. We are all human.December 23, 2011 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #838037
BT guy -“All in all, you claim that prescription drugs are issued solely on medical decisions and there is no issue of over prescription of drugs in America for economic and financial reasons, AT THE SAME TIME you just supported the exact argument/reasons of those who claim there is a problem.”
You misconstrued my post either on purpose or by mistake. I don’t have the time in life to go back and forth with you. Whatever misconceptions you have, I’m sure you have had them for a long time. I’m not going to change them and am not that interested to.
What I want to clear up is why I’m not contradicting myself.
Yes, Doctors practice medicine to make money. Yes, Pharm companies make and sell drugs to make money. In spite of your conspiracy theories – one has nothing to do with the other. Doctors don’t make more or less $ depending how many drugs they give out. They charge for the visit, not for prescription drugs! And I really don’t know why you think they do. Yes, the more drugs Pharm companies sell -the more they make. Why should a doc want to push drugs on pts. if they don’t make money off how many drugs they prescribe? They have one goal to giving drugs and that is to help the pts., whether you believe it or not!December 24, 2011 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #838038
Listen , i haven’t followed the thread since page 2 probablly, but my initial quesiton/curiosity still remains. SO DO YOU THINK A LOT OF WOMEN in general, in our community, today are on Zoloft or not?
curious minds would like to know….December 25, 2011 1:13 am at 1:13 am #838039
There is no way of knowing unless people or women are willing to discuss if and what medications they are taking. I highly doubt anyone would be willing to discuss it because it is private and no one else’s business. Unless one were to do an anonymous survey to try to asses that answer you will never know and even then you will never know if you are getting the truth or not.December 25, 2011 1:30 am at 1:30 am #838040
I agree Aries. We cannot know unless people divulge personal information.
However, I assume that within the chassidishe little world I live in , there probablly are quite a number. I am assuming that because of a few comments I’ve heard from different people. One was from a Child Protection worker who works within and she mentioned (obviously off the record) that there is a lot of ladies on anti depressants around here.
Secondly in 2 different conversations I have had with 2 different friends alluded to this fact. That being that it is indeed, in need and being used by many.
My conclusion is ..what? I don’t know. I guess I just feel sad for them, for myself and for anyone who has to resign their brain over to this for mild depression.December 25, 2011 2:26 am at 2:26 am #838041
My problem with it is it appears that antidepressants act only as placebos for mild to moderate depression, and the chatter I read back and forth between psychiatrists on medical websites gives me the impression that they mostly aren’t prescribing them except for severe depression anymore, that it is family docs handing out these prescriptions like candy. there is a serious concern I recently became aware of, that in the LONG TERM, these drugs are causing harm – they change your serotonin receptors in your brain, and that may be permanent – nobody knows. and it isn’t natural or fixing a chemical imbalance either – lack of serotonin was disproved as a cause of depression 2 decades ago – nobody knows if it is a chemical imbalance or what the heck is the cause of depression, even today! withdrawal from antidepressants can be very difficult for some people, but the docs never warn you about that. Your brain adapts to the drug, and if you go off the meds, you can be a total wreck.
For mild to moderate depression, the most effective treatments known are counseling, getting a lot more aerobic exercise, increasing social support, using a light box in fall and winter if there is a seasonal component to your moods and stuff like that. there are self-help books at the library and a lot of those books have good advice in them. If your depression is mild to moderate, why take the risk of medications when they appear to work no better than placebo according to even the drug companies’ data when there are proven strategies with no risk? these strategies are STILL bona fide depression treatment.
Why are we running to pop pills?December 25, 2011 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #838042
ARWSF – “but the docs never warn you about that.”
They warn about the most common side effects. If you pick up any book like “The Pill Book” which is made for consumers -you’ll see they mention the possibly of adverse effects when the drug is stopped.
While the info you found is correct (based on a study published in JAMA in Jan 2010) -Your conclusions are NOT. This is what happens when Non-medical personnel peruse all the stuff on the net. You have the right to not take any meds you don’t want to, but you have NO right to tell e/o to do the same based on some info you dug up. You have NO right to Diss all Practioners whom prescribe Meds in mild to moderate depression!
Your conclusion is not what the authors’ of the study (that you dug up) came out with, but you think you have the right to come to any conclusion you want to, even if the ones who did the study disagree!
“Are antidepressants the right treatment? Not necessarily, according to a study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (Vol. 303, No. 1) in January.
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