March 23, 2011 11:37 am at 11:37 am #595853
Do you think its getting to expensive to be frum?
The price of Kosher food (Meat, cheese especially) and even more if you want Hemish brands. Chalav Yisroel can be quite expensive especially Non Milk (ie Ice cream, butter etc)
The price of living in a frum area costs more than a non-frum area (Real estate costs housing prices rents etc)
And ESPECIALLY Yeshiva tuition. I know many people that are either pulling their kids out of yeshiva or having less kids. Yeshiva tutitions are $10K-$20K and sometimes higher (especially for special ed , I think Kulanu costs $40K a year)
Even people with good jobs cannot afford $70K-$80K a year in tutitons (7 Kids x $10K a kid tuitions)March 23, 2011 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #752669GrandmasterMember
Being frum is never “too” expensive.
As far as tuition, move to Brooklyn and pay about $4,000 a year, if not less.March 23, 2011 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #752670BasYisroel94Participant
OK, since I’m not yet in the stage of life where I’m thinking about the price of living (although, now that you meantion it, it seems pretty scary), it may not be fair to write this; but I’ve always been taught and therefore believe that Hashem doesn’t give someone a nisayon greater than they can handle.
Well, although that’s all fine and dandy in theory, It sounds very hard to understand in practice…March 23, 2011 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #752671cleverjewishpunMember
Of course it’s getting too expensive
But thats what happens when Frum neighboorhoods get too big for themselves.
Real estate prices skyrocket due to demand because EVERYONE wants to live in that neighboorhood. And no one wants to dare try living in an upstart community because, “what would their friends in the other neighboorhood say?”
Kosher food prices will continue to rise when each product or resturant needs 4 different hechsharim just to appeal to enough customers to keep them from going under.
Day school tuition is a result of all of these problems.
Mechanchim need to get paid enough to afford housing in an overpriced neighboorhood, groceries,and they need to pay tuition for their girls (if they teach in a boys school) or boys (if they teach in a girls school)
And once again it falls on the backs of the successful professionals to keep this endless cycle afloat.
So maybe instead of just whining about all of this, community leaders and askanim can get involved and solve a real issue and not just some “crisis.”
My idea would be for the rest of America (as i can not speak to the geography of the NY,NJ area) would be for newly married couples to start their own community in an area not so densly populated with religious jews. Within a few years you can have a world class frum community.
But it would require someone breaking ranks..and we all know its the 4th Yarog V’all Ya’avorMarch 23, 2011 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #752672truth be toldMember
Is it getting too expensive to be alive??? If G-d grants life, we must be thankful. Living, yet choosing a lifestlye to commit thousands and thousands of aveiros is not a solution.
Yes, I’m offended at the openning sentence.March 23, 2011 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #752673enlightenedjewMember
This is very true. My wife and I recently went to an OU conference session in Teaneck on the cost of Orthodox living. Many words were spoken but not much substance was said.
What can we do about this?March 23, 2011 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #752674
Cut the Sem in Israel, that should make things easier.March 23, 2011 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #752675
It isnt just the successful people expected to pay, its everyone.
Paying $30K in tuition is not really an option when you make $50K a year (take out $10K for taxes (More if you live in Suburbs as opposed to the City) and $15K to live in NYC area) and before you even eat or pay utility bills you are $5K in the hole to tuition.
And Jobs paying $50K are not so easy to get anymore.
Brooklyn might be $4K in tuition per kid (5 Kids is STILL $20K) , but the real estate costs are higher, have you bought/rented a House/Apartment in Flatbush or Borough Park. So the money just goes elsewhereMarch 23, 2011 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #752676ZeesKiteParticipant
And I thought this is another ‘Get’ thread…March 23, 2011 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #752677
Lets first focus on the things we can actually cut.
Number one in my view is weddings.
As AZ likes to point out, nobody is even getting married and we are spending so much on weddings.
But really, it is absurd that you need to spend a full year’s work on a single night.
I propose we simply stop. No half measures. No limiting to 4 piece band.
Meal in your house, and dancing in the shul. That’s it.March 23, 2011 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #752678tomim tihyeMember
Tuition credits would certainly help.March 23, 2011 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #752679PLONIALMONI4Member
I am personally do not know what percentage of the BP/Flatbush community utilize food stamps,Section 8, welfare, WIC, etc. but it is substantial and I am not referring to the system abusers.
Alot of people barely make it from week to week.
We definitely are at the stage where new communities will be established beyond the NYC metropolitan area.
Just a question of timeMarch 23, 2011 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #752680
I am not only talking about people on Food Stamps/Welfare etc
I am talking about working people who have normal jobs.
Even a Doctor who makes $200K a year cannot afford to easily pay $75K in year in tuition (for multiple kids).
In Teaneck the property taxes are $10,000 a year and tuition is $10-$15K a year PER KIDMarch 23, 2011 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #752681pet peeveMember
“living on G-d’s earth is expensive, but His retirement plan is outta this world”.March 23, 2011 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #752682PLONIALMONI4Member
You are only making my comments strongerMarch 23, 2011 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #752683
Expensive indeed. But, did you ever think of our totta in himel? He gives kids, and the money to support them. With every child, comes a malach. Why push him away cause of a little tuition?March 23, 2011 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #752684cleverjewishpunMember
@Truth Be Told and @tryinhhard
Hashem gave us the mitzvah of having children, but you are not obligated to put your own life in danger.
Your comments on how the alternative is to “live a life transgressing thousands of averios” or “pushing away a malach because of a little tuition” are short sighted and incredibly insensitive to the families struggling to make ends meet under the crushing burden of a religious lifestyle
Yes the community is guilty of some excess on the part of weddings and even bar/bat mitzvahs but this in no way justifies the outrageous and skyrocketing rates for an education. Especially for a sub par secular education (if you even believe in such non sense)
The high food prices and real estate prices can be fixed with a few key moves but until we figure out the tuition mess, maybe its better to keep family sizes to a managable numberMarch 23, 2011 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #752685s2021Member
mytake- I agree
PB- I in all seriousness love that ideaMarch 23, 2011 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #752686MindOverChatterParticipant
Are you talking about luxuries or a regular Jewish lifestyle? If the former, than yes, definitely cut your expenses. If the latter… Well, whoever said being frum was ever easy? Kosher food, tuition etc. are all expensive, but I would exchange my lifestyle for no money in the world!!March 23, 2011 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #752687whatrutalkingabtMember
I think the OP didnt mean to sound like it came out. I’m sure he didnt mean that since its too expensive to be frum he’s going off the D. I think he just meant to ask for other solutions to the problemMarch 23, 2011 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #752688mikehall12382Member
it takes a couple of brave families to move and settle elsewhere….there is a frum life outside of NY/NJ….it is more affordable than you think….March 23, 2011 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #752689
Cut the Sem in Israel. Cut the Sem in Israel. Cut the Sem in Israel. Cut the Sem in Israel. Cut the Sem in Israel.March 23, 2011 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #752690
Do you consider Food and lodging a “Luxury” of course many consider living in NYC area a “Luxury” How much is rent in Brooklyn $1600 a month for a 2 bedroom Apartment and if you have 6 kids. A house in Brooklyn will cost about $1M dollarsMarch 23, 2011 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #752691
OK, so what do you suggest?March 23, 2011 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #752692
Cut the Sem. Cut the Sem. Cut the Sem. Cut the Sem. Cut the Sem.
Totally.March 23, 2011 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #752693
I dont have answers only Questions.
it took along time to get into this mess and it will take along time to get out
But I do know this, the Catholic schools charge $3500 a year tutiton and the Yeshivas can charge $15K (or more)
The money is going somewhere.
If you have 23 kids in a class at $10K tution each, thats $230K in tution per class. pay the teachers $50K and you are left with $180K per class
If you have 20 classes in this school you are left with $3.6 Million for other expenses like Adminstration ,insurance, utitlies e , building maintaince etc . Which do not add up to $3.6 Million.March 23, 2011 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #752694YW Moderator-80Member
im pretty sure the Rabbis are pocketing those extra millions
probably to pay for their private islands they own and live on in the summerMarch 23, 2011 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #752695
I said In Israel. In Israel. In Israel. In Israel. In Israel.March 23, 2011 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #752696
Other than cutting down on wedding which I totally agree
I dont think anyone has any real solutions.
I dont know where the money is going, Unless its totally mismanged .
I can also tell you I doubt people working at Yeshivas (Rebbes, Morahs, Secular Ed teachers) are making $50K a year. The actual number I heard is about $10K a year. I just picked that number because I thought it was a fair salary for someone in ChinuchMarch 23, 2011 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #752697
The money is going somewhere.
Where do you think it’s going? Do you agree with Mod. 80?March 23, 2011 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #752698
If you have 23 kids in a class at $10K tution each, thats $230K in tution per class.
If they are each paying that much. They are not.
pay the teachers $50K and you are left with $180K per class
Is there only one teacher the whole day? You want to pay all the day’s teachers a combined 50k? Does that include the cost of their benefits and the school’s share of their FICA?March 23, 2011 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #752699WolfishMusingsParticipant
But I do know this, the Catholic schools charge $3500 a year tutiton and the Yeshivas can charge $15K (or more)
Off the top of my head:
The Catholic Church has a centralized hierarchy and system. We do not — by us it’s usually every small group for itself.
The Catholic Church has about a billion more people supporting it than we do. The cost of the school gets spread among far more people — and that’s true even just at the diocese level (leaving aside any funds the local systems may or may not get from Rome).
The WolfMarch 23, 2011 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #752700TheGoqParticipant
don’t forget to pay the underappreciated office staffMarch 23, 2011 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #752701
Oh they are paying the money, Try to get a discount on Tuition, its humilating and not easy and if you have a real job, they are not going to give it to you anyway.
If you Make $70K the board will consider you “Rich” even though you have 6 kids in Yeshiva at $10K each. Many Schools will kick you out if you dont pay.
$50K (Assuming $25K for religious and $25K for Secular) was the combined pay for a full time teacher. About what a public school teacher might make. But Actually its probably less.
editedMarch 23, 2011 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #752702
The actual number I heard is about $10K a year.
Not in the schools charging 10k+ in tuition.March 23, 2011 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #752703
Why stop at frum? Know how much it costs to get / stay married? Raise kids? Eat more than bread / water?
Good things, worthwhile things, in life cost money. Things needed to be Frum are no different.
It doesnt “cost”… it PAYS!March 23, 2011 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #752704
“It doesn’t “cost”…it PAYS!”
Well said.March 23, 2011 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #752705
Read this, with the comments. You aren’t the first person to not properly understand a school’s actual expenses and income, and you won’t be the last.March 23, 2011 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #752706
First get me a teacher earning $50k…. Then, I might agree w/you that schools/yeshivas are on a tight budget.March 23, 2011 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #752707
Its not my own; the quote is an old one;
Qualtity workmanship doesn’t cost.. it pays!March 23, 2011 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #752708
First get me a teacher earning $50k…. Then, I might agree w/you that schools/yeshivas are on a tight budget.
So you think the yeshivas have loads of extra money around?March 23, 2011 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #752709
Interesting Letter and comments.
But it seems to me the #1 issue is the books, lots of people are speculating on the books (On either side of the issue).
Nobody can say for sure if the Bais Yaakov is running a surplus or a deficit since the President of BYBP is not opening the books for people to see.
Most non-profits have CFO’s and compliance employees (Including such places as OHEL)
It is important to have books everyone can believe inMarch 23, 2011 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #752710
Since you mentioned BYBP by name, did anyone see the full page ad in Hamodia announcing that all is well and the ship is not sinking, and the school is not closing.
They have a new board (no names listed), they have a Rabbinical advoisory board (these names, they listed). No mention of what chnaged in the $$ dept, though.
And to think, we were worried they were gonna fold. (yeah, right.)March 23, 2011 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #752711
The following specific comments address the books:March 23, 2011 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #752712
Its unfortunate we went a little OT here, but those anti-books comments missed the point. MY point was its getting expensive, not if yeshivas are hoarding money.
The president of BYBP took out an ad in Misphacha Magazine asking for money. As a donor I do have to the right to know where my money is going.
The Better Business Bureau rates charities, One of the criteria to be a recommended charity is to have your books open.
Now maybe you dont think its anyones business what the books are, and thats fair, but if someone IS going to give it is their business. Nobody wants to give to charity if they think they money is being abused.
People dont even want to give to charity if their money goes to pay the phone bill or electric billMarch 23, 2011 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #752713
What’s with all the government funds schools get? Is it not part of their income? Where is all that money going to? For the schools under a mosed (meaning not privately run), there should be no talk about too little money. What is Building Fund money for? According to what I know, these buildings come from their father (the rabbi) who bought them after the war. Why are we, the parents, being choked?March 23, 2011 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #752714
Yes, zahavasdad, it’s expensive to be frum. But it’s also a much more satisfying way of life, even in this world. And blaming the schools for overcharging (which, IMHO, is ridiculous since most run on a deficit even though waste is kept to a minimum) doesn’t help pay the bills.
BTW, no yeshiva or BY that I know of will insist on $50,000 tuition if your income is only $70,000. They’re not dumb, they know how to add.March 24, 2011 2:44 am at 2:44 am #752715kishke 4 shabbosMember
how about lowering the standards… (weddings…)March 24, 2011 2:52 am at 2:52 am #752716jonasMember
Try comparing per pound prices on chicken, beef, gallon of milk, BBQ chicken at a takeout place. It is exORBITANTMarch 24, 2011 9:08 am at 9:08 am #752717m in IsraelMember
When reading all the uninformed opinions in these type of discussions, it is easy to understand why schools don’t want to open up their books to everyone and anyone! That being said, I have no doubt that if someone who intends to make a large donation asks to see the books, he would be shown them.
But more to the point, zehavasdad, your numbers are very confusing. Generally speaking schools that are charging over $10,000 in tuition are paying their teachers SIGNIFICANTLY more than your numbers. (Generally the schools with higher tuitions are the more MO schools or the out of town schools. I taught secular studies in a somewhat MO school in the NY area 10 years ago and was making over $30,000 for the 3/4 of a day that I worked. I’m sure it’s more now.) Even the more “yeshivish” schools, whose tuitions are much lower, and who, contrary to your accusation, do give significant breaks, especially to families with many students in the same school pay teachers much more than $10,000! The operating expenses of schools are also often misunderstood.
Of course there are always ways to be more efficient and save money, and some schools are run better than others. But the crux of the tuition crisis is that it is expensive to run a school, even in the most efficient way. Just to give a frame of reference, as of 2005, in the public school system, NY spent $14,119 per student, and NJ $13,800! And this does not include Limudei Kodesh obviously. . . To be fair, NY and NJ are among the highest spending states, and government can’t do anything efficiently, but the point remains that education is expensive.
The Catholic school system is suffering financial difficulties of their own, despite the fact that the schools are mostly funded by the church hierarchy. In fact just 2 years ago the NY Diocese closed a number of Catholic schools in Queens as they could no longer afford to run them. They also converted quite a few schools throughout the city into “parish schools” where the local church becomes responsible for supporting the school, and “academies” where there is some sort of joint support (I’m not familiar with all the technicalities). Additionally, although their tuition levels are much lower, they very rarely give any tuition breaks (although some do have family discounts). Overall the whole model is financially very different.
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