Is it healthy for yehiva bochurim to learn from a artscroll?

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  • #1672483

    press87
    Participant

    is it healthy for yeshiva bochurim to learn from a artscroll?

    #1672536

    Shopping613 🌠
    Participant

    I don’t think it will cause him physical long term damage.

    #1672647

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    List the pros and cons so we can know what exactly u are concerned about.
    One up side is that you are supporting the owner of a seforim store

    #1672659

    GAON
    Participant

    Cons are obvious, he will never properly learn or master how to learn a Gemara on his own.

    It is one thing people who do not have the time or capacity to learn on your own use it, but why should a Yeshva bachur who has the time and is capable use it.
    Pros – even when you learn on your own, it is always handy when you get “stuck” to have it as a reference or just for difficult words as translator etc.

    Have it for your additional Mesechete to study..

    Bottom line, it depends for whom and when..

    #1672668

    Sam Klein
    Participant

    Unhealthy
    As they will be fooled by themselves thinking that they know the Gemara and remember it when in truth they only know it for 1 time from reading it out of the artscroll Gemara.

    Save yourself from fooling yourself and learn from out of a real Gemara

    #1672670

    akuperma
    Participant

    Healthy yes. The print is quite large and won’t strain his eyes.

    Intellectually, using a translation will probably prevent him from developing the ability to read the original. While artscroll is a good source for looking up a word in context, it is a very dubious translation. Many words are ambiguous and artscroll claims there is only one meaning. Out of necessity, it murders the grammar (which is inevitable in translating between a Semitic and an Aryan language). Many gemara terms are in “legalese” and artscroll is inconsistent in translating them into “street” English rather than into “legal” English.

    The all-Hebrew artscroll gemaras (or the Steinsaltz all Hebrew) are excellent provided one is already able to read modern (Israeli, zionist) Hebrew, Posing gemara language into modern Hebrew poses few of the problems of translating into English.

    #1672672

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    As compared to learning from what?? your question is a bit uncelar. What are the “unhealthy” aspects of learning from artscroll seforim?

    #1672724

    Justajew39
    Participant

    Only to review the Gemara to see if their Pashat was right. But not to learn for the first time. If you don’t understand a word you should look at dictionary/ Morfix

    #1672734

    Joseph
    Participant

    Does anybody in the Yeshiva velt still use a Jastrow?

    #1672733

    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    The irony of these types of questions is that the Gemorah was written in Aramaic because that was the everyday language of the masses . There was nothing intrinsically holy about it. The Amoraim and Tannaim composed it in the language everyone spoke. If the Gemorah was written in modern day USA, it would be in English.

    #1672741

    DrYidd
    Participant

    joseph, no one in the yeshivashe velt has produced anything close to a Jastrow. we need an updated Jastrow given all the academic findings over the cast century +.

    #1672797

    Joseph
    Participant

    I didn’t ask about producing, I asked about using a Jastrow.

    But since you brought it up, who cares about new academics insofar as Gemorah learning is concerned.

    #1672878

    takahmamash
    Participant

    Poor boy learning from Artscroll will probably have less shidduchim redt to him, thereby increasing the shidduch crisis.

    #1672990

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Does anybody in the Yeshiva velt still use a Jastrow?”

    Yes. Why not?

    Artscroll’s translation is not so clearly word-for-word. So, it really doesn’t help the bocher learn Aramaic at all. Also, the way they vocalize a lot of words is just completely wrong, or perhaps just against the pronunciation used traditionally.

    #1673001

    Joseph
    Participant

    Neville: Jastrow isn’t that easy to use.

    #1673006

    funnybone
    Participant

    If you have a son-in-law a talmid chochom, you buy fir him a regular chosson shas.
    If he isnt a talmid chochom, you need to spend much more on an Artscroll shas!

    #1673018

    press87
    Participant

    takes 2 2 tango the pros are that hes learning the cons is that learning from an artscroll is not the proper way to be learning and will prevent you from learning how to learn

    #1673062

    Justajew39
    Participant

    Y

    #1673214

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Neville: Jastrow isn’t that easy to use.”

    I use Jastrow sometimes. What makes you think it’s harder than any other foreign language dictionary?

    #1673545

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The Artscroll gemara wasn’t made for mainstream yeshiva bochurim. It would be a crutch, and hamper their ability to develop both begginers’ and advanced gemara skills. Many if not most yeshivos don’t have then.

    The purpose of Artscroll, and its tremendous accomplishment, is that it enables balabatim who otherwise wouldn’t be able to learn on their own to do so, or at least to cover more ground.

    The amount of learning that takes place due to the availability of the Artscroll gemara is staggering. It’s a tremendous z’chus for those who invested their time, money, and efforts to publish it. But for the typical yeshiva bochur who can manage without it, using it would hinder his growth.

    #1673570

    writer
    Participant

    Just keep it on the low. And watch out for innacurate translations if there are any.

    #1673575

    yungerman123
    Participant

    DaasYochid, you put it very well. It is absolutely a crutch for mainstream bachurim

    #1673742

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Dass yachid says:

    The purpose of Artscroll, and its tremendous accomplishment, is that it enables balabatim who otherwise wouldn’t be able to learn on their own to do so, or at least to cover more ground.
    ———————————
    Do some honest home work, mr Dass tachid and u may just discover that before “kollel” was invented ,just about every man was a balaboss.
    Some how these ballei varim managed to learn just fine without an artscroll. So don’t align the birth of arscroll with balleibatim

    #1673779

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Who says they managed to learn just fine?

    #1673970

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Just because something was done a certain way in the Alter Heim, doesnt mean it should be repeated

    I mean the Choeftz Chaim learned by Candlelight even after Electric lights were invented.

    There is a reason ArtScroll is there and in many cases by encouraging people not to use it, they are actually hurting the learning as maybe someone doesnt get some words and then loses the meaning of the whole Sugya, and perhaps worse gives up

    #1673982

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    u may just discover that before “kollel” was invented ,just about every man was a balaboss

    1) Artscroll was invented after Kollel.

    2) Many balabatim didn’t learn much gemara before Artscroll, but started learning much more after. The inventors of Artscroll have the z’chus of countless hours of learning.

    #1673983

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Just because something was done a certain way in the Alter Heim, doesnt mean it should be repeated

    I said nothing about the alter heim. In 21st century United States of America, most mainstream bochurim are better off not using Artscroll.

    I mean the Choeftz Chaim learned by Candlelight even after Electric lights were invented.

    Is that a criticism?

    Does it have anything to do with this discussion?

    There is a reason ArtScroll is there

    I didn’t say it shouldn’t be. I just said that some people will not benefit, and in fact will lose out, by using it.

    and in many cases by encouraging people not to use it, they are actually hurting the learning

    But in many cases you’d be hurting them if you advised them to use it.

    #1673991

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    But in many cases you’d be hurting them if you advised them to use it.

    ive actually had this discusion with some good learners and even they told me while they didnt need the artscroll, they felt more people benefited from it than was harmed as the language did pose a significant barrier to many bochrim,

    #1674050

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    DaasYochid ☕Participant

    u may just discover that before “kollel” was invented ,just about every man was a balaboss

    1) Artscroll was invented after Kollel
    MY POINT EXACTLY.
    BALEIBATTIM WAS THE NORM FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS ,YET THEY SOMEHOW JNEW HOW TO LEARN.
    BESIDES, THEE BALLEIBATIM WHO YOU ARE ACCUSING OF NEEDING ARTSCROLL TO LEARN A PIECE OF GEMARA,FOR THE MOST PART ALL LEARNED IN LARGE YEHIVOS,GOT MARRIED AND BECAME BALLEI BATIM.

    2) Many balabatim didn’t learn much gemara before Artscroll, but started learning much more after. The inventors of Artscroll have the z’chus of countless hours of learning.
    ———————————
    Agreed that many gain from it. Thats a given but yo say it was for baleo batim who for the most part went to run of the mill yeshivos, it very wrong.
    I bet your great grandfather,grandfather, father were / balleibatim at some point

    #1674057

    besalel
    Participant

    Z-dad: I think you’re missing the point. Obviously, ArtScroll has an important role to play in the learning of Gemara in general. The question posed was whether a student developing his skills should ever use an ArtScroll. The obvious danger that this boy will never develop those skills is obvious. More than that, like akuperma stated, learning from ArtScroll even occasionally, by someone who has not yet developed the skills can impart misunderstandings about Gemara that will be very hard to reverse.

    #1674053

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “felt more people benefited from it than was harmed”

    I don’t think he denied that in terms of number of people. We’re talking about a specific group of people who is enrolled in an institution with the specific aim of training them to learn without translation. I don’t think it needs a lengthy explanation as to why falling back on a translation would hinder one from reaching this goal. It’s sort of a silly discussion to begin with.

    #1674119

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    they felt more people benefited from it than was harmed as the language did pose a significant barrier to many bochrim

    Even if that’s true, it’s because the norm in mainstream yeshivos is not to learn with Artscroll; in fact they don’t allow it. So those who do end up using it might be the minority who wouldn’t learn at all if they didn’t have it.

    #1674120

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    MY POINT EXACTLY.
    BALEIBATTIM WAS THE NORM FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS ,YET THEY SOMEHOW JNEW HOW TO LEARN.

    Many didn’t.

    #1674121

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    THEE BALLEIBATIM WHO YOU ARE ACCUSING OF NEEDING ARTSCROLL

    Where does the word “accuse” belong in this discussion?

    THEE BALLEIBATIM WHO YOU ARE ACCUSING OF NEEDING ARTSCROLL TO LEARN A PIECE OF GEMARA,FOR THE MOST PART ALL LEARNED IN LARGE YEHIVOS,GOT MARRIED AND BECAME BALLEI BATIM.

    Some did learn in yeshiva, and some didn’t. Some of those who learned in yeshiva still benefitted from Artscroll. Some didn’t.

    Undoubtedly, unfortunately some who would have been better off not using it did, but overall, it’s hard to complain about a publication which helped bring about a massive growth in the number of people learning gemara regularly and the number of hours of increased learning it brought about.

    Thats a given but yo say it was for baleo batim who for the most part went to run of the mill yeshivos, it very wrong.

    Not for all, but for many. I would agree that a balabus who spent his non working hours learning out of a regular gemara would lose by switching to an Artscroll, but there were and are a it of balabatim who learn many more hours because of the Artscroll gemara.

    #1674122

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I bet your great grandfather,grandfather, father were / balleibatim at some point

    Yes, and some undoubtedly would have learned a lot more has they had easier access to the gemara, such as Artscroll provides nowadays.

    #1674123

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It’s sort of a silly discussion to begin with.

    I never would have thought my expressed opinion here was so controversial.

    #1674138

    too geshmak
    Participant

    Should a 3rd grader use a calculator to do his homework? Most would agree that he shouldn’t. I, as an adult use a calculator for most of the arithmetic that I perform on a daily basis in my field of work, despite the fact that I could do it almost as quickly on paper. However it’s still important that I learned all the basic concepts of arithmetic in my early school days. A yeshiva bochur is learning how to learn. Yes as a balabus he will use the artscroll to learn his daf yomi, even though he doesn’t need it and there’s nothing wrong with that.
    Additionally his skills that he honed in yeshiva will help him with every other sefer he may open for the rest of his life, where there may not be an English version, whether hes looking up a halachah, preparing a dvar Torah for his shabbos table, or any other topic he wants to learn.

    #1674372

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    These are just wild guesses, but I can assure you its not 100% to 0%

    Perhaps 70% of bochrim the Art Scroll is a hinderance to learning , but for 30% its nessasary, Do we sacrafice the 30% who cannot learn without it or do we hurt the 70% who can

    #1674438

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Takes2-2tango,

    “MY POINT EXACTLY.
    BALEIBATTIM WAS THE NORM FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS ,YET THEY SOMEHOW JNEW HOW TO LEARN.”

    Some did, but many did not.

    “BESIDES, THEE BALLEIBATIM WHO YOU ARE ACCUSING OF NEEDING ARTSCROLL TO LEARN A PIECE OF GEMARA,FOR THE MOST PART ALL LEARNED IN LARGE YEHIVOS,GOT MARRIED AND BECAME BALLEI BATIM.”

    Like high school math, unfortunately there are some people who did what they needed to do to “graduate”, and don’t use it too much after that.

    #1674445

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    I do not have a yeshiva background, unfortunately, and have experience both using Artscroll independently and learning with a regular Vilna shas at shiurim. Both the Artscroll and the shiurim provide translations, so I don’t see that as the big difference maker.

    Pros of Artscroll
    1. You can make forward progress independent of a shiur.
    2. The elucidation and extensive comments help incredibly with understanding what’s going on.

    Cons of Artscroll
    1. The layout does not encourage proper review – I find that I remember much less from the sugyos I learn with Artscroll alone, and it does not become “mine”, if that makes sense.
    2. The translation does not capture the pithy language of the gemara, and I find the latter to be much more engaging.
    3. You don’t pick up on the words and phrases that are key to unlocking what’s going on, and can then be applied elsewhere. In other words, Artscroll does not teach you how to learn, so there is no path to becoming less reliant on it.

    #1674450

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    zahavasdad,

    “Do we sacrafice the 30% who cannot learn without it or do we hurt the 70% who can”

    My understanding is that the yeshiva cares about the process as much as or more than the result. Therefore, if 30% can’t learn without it, the yeshiva should be helping them to learn how to learn without it.

    #1674459

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Artscroll does not teach you how to learn, so there is no path to becoming less reliant on it.

    Would you say that the shiurim you paticipate in give you a path to independent learning, or would a chavrusa be required for that?

    #1674463

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    My understanding is that the yeshiva cares about the process as much as or more than the result. Therefore, if 30% can’t learn without it, the yeshiva should be helping them to learn how to learn without it.

    Some just cant and telling someone to try harder wont make it so. Different Bocherim have different learning capabilities

    #1674465

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    My understanding is that the yeshiva cares about the process as much as or more than the result.

    I would word that differently, although this is probably what you meant:

    The yeshiva cares about obtaining skills (reading, analysis, etc.) as much as or more than learning that specific sugya.

    #1674469

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Some just cant and telling someone to try harder wont make it so. Different Bocherim have different learning capabilities

    It’s not just telling them to try harder, it’s giving them the help to obtain the skills.

    The percentage that can’t even with help is much, much less than 30%, and they’re usually not in mainstream yeshivos.

    #1674476

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    DaasYochid,

    “Would you say that the shiurim you paticipate in give you a path to independent learning, or would a chavrusa be required for that?”

    I think the shiurim provide a path, but it is a painfully slow one. Learning with a chavrusa and a shiur is the best option.

    #1674477

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    DaasYochid,

    “I would word that differently, although this is probably what you meant:

    The yeshiva cares about obtaining skills (reading, analysis, etc.) as much as or more than learning that specific sugya.”

    That is exactly what I meant, but I don’t see what was problematic with my wording.

    #1674488

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Because obtaining skills is a result of the process, not the process itself.

    #1674508

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “I never would have thought my expressed opinion here was so controversial.”
    It’s not, and I agree with you.

    I think people are misunderstand the OP as being about the greater discussion of pros/cons of Artscroll (maybe that is what he wants to discuss and we’re misunderstanding).

    I was under the impression that he was referring to someone currently in yeshiva. Meaning, it’s not anything like 70% 30%. It’s 100% of the bochrim who are following the rules are not using Artscroll. The question is about a subset of the population, not the whole population. Obviously, Artscroll is a positive when you consider the whole population. We aren’t ignoring the lesser-educated masses out of meanness here, we’re ignoring them because they were not the subject of the question.

    #1674528

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    is it healthy for yeshiva bochurim to learn from a artscroll?

    I was under the impression that he was referring to someone currently in yeshiva. Meaning, it’s not anything like 70% 30%. It’s 100% of the bochrim who are following the rules are not using Artscroll. The question is about a subset of the population, not the whole population. Obviously, Artscroll is a positive when you consider the whole population. We aren’t ignoring the lesser-educated masses out of meanness here, we’re ignoring them because they were not the subject of the question.

    If you are going to phrase it that way, then the answer is I DONT KNOW and nobody knows either, Every Bocher is different. Until you know who the bocher is, you cannot answer the question. If he doesnt need it, then its a negative, but if he cannot learn without it because of his language skills then its absolutly nessasary

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