Is it mutar to be an organ donor?

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  • #601935

    soliek
    Member

    well…is it? i know that autopsies are mutar when they will save another life, do organ donations work the same way?

    btw i mean the organ donor thing on teh back of your license…after youre dead

    #853559

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Seems to me that most poskim hold it is assur, but that there are some who hold it is muttar. I have seen a “halachic organ donor” something or another. But my rebbeim never said to do it.

    #853560

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    lol,

    I was going to post the same thing (actually about donating while alive)

    but anyways it’s assur for organ donations after death

    #853561

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    coffee, I expected you to say something about donating your piano too.

    #853562

    soliek
    Member

    why though? i mean you have the potential to save a life, there are jews on the organ donor list…

    #853563

    golden mom
    Member

    because we believe in techias hamesim and how will your body dig itselg out (burry with a branch in hand to dig our way out) if you are missing body parts

    if for whatever reason ch”v somebody looses a leg or st they burry it i guess so the person will have it after techias hamesim

    #853564

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    If you wait til you die it goes random. only live donors choose their receipients

    #853565

    Ctrl Alt Del
    Participant

    Tricky tricky tricky… Although there are many things that can be donated without technically being injurious or fatal to a patient (cornea, piece of the liver, skin, blood vessels, one lung, one kidney, yada yada yada…), at the time this decision becomes relevant, a person might be considered a goses in which they are not even allowed to be touched for fear that even a touch might cause them to die. I’m pretty sure that after actual death though, (yeah yeah the whole death controversy) nothing can be harvested. IMHO, Im no Rabbi.

    #853566

    Sam2
    Participant

    Organ donations after death should be a Chiyuv because of Pikuach Nefesh. And in a case where there is no Jew in need of a kidney or lung, it is still a Chiyuv of Pikuach Nefesh Mishum Eivah. Even now, many countries won’t send organs to Israel because too many Jews aren’t donors. It’s a complete Pikuach Nefesh. Hands down.

    #853567

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Organ donations after death should be a Chiyuv because of Pikuach Nefesh. And in a case where there is no Jew in need of a kidney or lung, it is still a Chiyuv of Pikuach Nefesh Mishum Eivah. Even now, many countries won’t send organs to Israel because too many Jews aren’t donors. It’s a complete Pikuach Nefesh. Hands down.

    Hands down, huh?

    Why would you make a statement like that, when you know very well that most poskim hold you should not?

    #853568

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Not having all your body parts for tchiyas Hameisim is one thing. What you give away when alive is still different from what is a part of a person when they die. Anything with too much blood on it ends up buried. I know that certain IV lines are not removed after death if the contain a certain amount of blood or will cause bleeding. The first time I lost a sister they wanted to take a biopsy after she died and we were told no. I think (I was young so I could be wrong) they got permission for a minimal amount of blood though because there was a need to determine if she had a certain infection, meaning the families health was a concern.

    #853569

    hello99
    Member

    If the donor is truly dead and the issue is only Kavod haMeis, there are grounds to permit it due to Pikuach Nefesh. However, most organs can only be donated while the heart is still beating. According to most Poskim that brain death is not dead in Halacha, this is murdering one person to save another and is not permitted.

    #853570

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: I have spoken personally to many leading Poskim about this. I feel it is a tremendous Pikuach Nefesh and that any Posek who refuses to let people do this is Machshil es Harabbim and Gorem Sakanas Nefashos for many Jews, especially those in Eretz Yisrael where European countries won’t send organs because a very high percentage of Israelis (mostly the communities whose Rabbis won’t let them donate organs) refuse to be organ donors.

    #853572

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Syag,

    Good point

    #853573

    hello99
    Member

    Sam: “any Posek who refuses to let people do this is Machshil es Harabbim and Gorem Sakanas Nefashos for many Jews”

    Those are very irresponsible words to write about a Rav who prevents murder!!!

    #853574

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 -“PBA: I have spoken personally to many leading Poskim about this.”

    And did they agree with you or hold you are wrong?

    #853575

    uneeq
    Member

    I saw Rav Ovadia Yosef in Yechave Da’at is mattir to give a low-risk kidney donation.

    #853576

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Sam2,

    1) would have expected you to say its darkei hoemori, that seems to be your standard response of late.

    2) Its nice to say that you spoke to many poskim, you don’t say who they are. More importantly, and this is telling, you didn’t say that the agree with you. Which would be a pretty good indication, to me at least, that they did not agree with your hypothesis. Also known as a “boich sevarah”

    3) You did not deal with the real issue which is why your svoroh is completely baseless. Pikuach nefesh is not docheh retzicha. Organs used for transplant are almost always harvested while the donor is still halachacially alive thereby killing the donor. That is the issue that has to be dealt with. Your ignoring the real issue makes your agenda transparent. BTW human sacrifice is also ossur mdarkei hoemori,

    #853577

    Ender
    Participant

    If i am not mistaken, donating organs for a transplant is never a problem. The problem is that when you sign up to donate on your diver’s license, they can also use your organs for research, which is assur.

    Post-mortem almost all donations are for research, because after the person is dead it is much less effective to use the organs for transplants.

    #853578

    squeak
    Participant

    Buried with a branch in hand…. never heard of this. Is this a valid minhag of certain groups, or is it like having a bell line?

    #853579

    besalel
    Participant

    while i certainly recognize the very valid halachik arguments against organ donation it is comments like the one made by golden mom that make me wonder what int he world has happened to our judaism. to think that we cannot save a life because we will be missing body parts at techiyas hameysim is so far removed from the way the torah wants us to think that it is absolutely scary to imagine that there is a huge chunk of frum yidden that walk around thinking like this.

    #853580

    soliek
    Member

    “Post-mortem almost all donations are for research,”

    did not know that.

    btw…on the subject of live donors…this kind of pertains…whats the halacha concerning braindeath?

    #853581

    A Heimishe Mom
    Participant

    The only Rabbanim that I have seem mattir it are considered “fringe” Rabbanim. As I understand it, there are multiple issues – when they take it (definition of death), as well as the need to bury all body parts. Harvesting parts that can be lived without (cornea, liver, as someone else said) would also kill the patient as one in such a condition could not survive the operation. Once dead you can’t take anything. I don’t think there is a difference wether the parts are used for people or for research – in fact, research can save 100s or 1000s of lives, not just one. There are many places where you can donate while alive to people and for research – blood, half liver, one kidney, and for research you can even donate skin!

    #853582

    besalel
    Participant

    a heimish mom: i suggest you learn more about the over 200 orthodox rabbis that allow organ donations. please visit teh halachik organ donor website which identified them. you will find that calling them fringe rabbis is really a big mistake.

    #853583

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Good enough for them, good enough for me.

    #853584

    greatest
    Member

    All the rabbis allowing this are pretty much MO rabbis.

    #853585

    Sam2
    Participant

    I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear before. I only meant donations after the person’s heart had stopped beating for everyone, even though I personally think Rav Schachter is right that you can have a heartbeat without the person being alive (a heart in a bathtub can beat for almost 24 hours after it is removed from the body).

    #853586

    ED IT OR
    Participant

    mo, or, rr, It’s called Yeshiva World News

    #853587

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear before. I only meant donations after the person’s heart had stopped beating for everyone

    Cessation of breathing is the criterion (R’ Dovid Feinstein in his father’s name).

    Since, as other posters have pointed out, most organs are only useful if harvested from a live person, so your statement, “that any Posek who refuses to let people do this is Machshil es Harabbim and Gorem Sakanas Nefashos for many Jews” is baseless.

    #853588

    oomis
    Participant

    Cessation of breathing is the criterion (R’ Dovid Feinstein in his father’s name).”

    Many people (heart attack, drowning, or choking victims for example) have stopped breathing, but can be resuscitated. That does not sound like the best criteria. Is there more to that definition alone that you did not post?

    #853589

    Sam2
    Participant

    DaasYochid: Those posters are wrong. Every organ is usable nowadays if harvested within an hour of death, sometimes more. It was true 10 years ago that they needed organs from a live person. It’s not true today. And while often organs are more useful if harvested before death, the transplant lists are so long and there are people who will die before a live donor comes along that the doctors will use these organs as well.

    #853590

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    PBA: I have spoken personally to many leading Poskim about this. I feel it is a tremendous Pikuach Nefesh and that any Posek who refuses to let people do this is Machshil es Harabbim and Gorem Sakanas Nefashos for many Jews, especially those in Eretz Yisrael where European countries won’t send organs because a very high percentage of Israelis (mostly the communities whose Rabbis won’t let them donate organs) refuse to be organ donors.

    Sam: I am going to blast you. It doesn’t mean I don’t respect you; it just means I’d like to impress you with how wrong you are here.

    I get that some poskim hold it is muttar, and even a mitzva. And that according to those poskim it is sakanas nefashos perhaps.

    That does not mean that the rov poskim who hold it is assur are being machshil people. This is a valid machlokes- you will not find poskim holding that the other side is illegitimate, as you make it out to be.

    You really should have more respect for poskim who disagree with poskim who you agree with. Particularly since your agreement or disagreement is really just a matter of liking the outcome in the case. (Sorry, I know you know a lot of torah, but you are not competent to take sides in this, and that is just how it is.)

    #853591

    Health
    Participant

    Sam2 – And you didn’t answer my question!

    “And did they agree with you or hold you are wrong?”

    #853592

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: I understand. I know that I get a ton of flak for this opinion. I also feel that voicing this opinion is more than worth it. It’s not that I feel that the other side is Halachically illegitimate. I just feel (very, very, strongly) that they have missed the point, are not completely aware of the physical facts, and have therefore created a situation where Israel is denied organs to save Jewish lives because too many Jews won’t be organ donors. They might have valid claims, but I have yet to hear one (T’chiyas Hameisim, Kavod Hameis, Nivul Hameis, and a few others I won’t repeat here) that would be enough to stop someone from saving a life. Not calling brain stem death Misah is a valid argument but someone can have a card saying that organs can only be donated after cessation of a heartbeat. I see no reason whatsoever to oppose such a thing. Nivul Hameis/T’chiyas Hameisim should never be enough to allow a person to die.

    From Wikipedia:

    The rate of agreement to organ donation is only 45%, which is 50% lower than the rate in most Western countries.[7] The percentage of people who hold an organ donation card in Israel is only 10 percent;[8][9] in Western countries the rate is 30-40%. As a result, there are about 1,000 Israelis currently on the “waiting list” for organs, and it is estimated that roughly 10% of them die annually, due to a lack of donations.[3]

    That’s 100 precious Neshamos every year that could have lived longer.

    #853593

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I am confident that Hashem will not punish me for listening to my rebbeim and rov poskim on this matter. I am sure Hashem has enough kidneys in his bank account for me.

    #853594

    cherrybim
    Participant

    “I am sure Hashem has enough kidneys in his bank account for me.”

    Tell that to the scores of Yidden who have been anxiously waiting for many months and longer for a compatible kidney donor. Time is running out for them.

    #853595

    Health
    Participant

    cherrybim – So give them yours!

    #853596

    real sources
    Member

    Mr.Sam2

    Since no doctor accepts the halachic defintion of death, we are in no position to permit organs donations which are done by doctors without any regard for halacha.

    The overwhelming majority of leading poskim reject brain death. Even if you accept brain death at some point, there’s a whole separate issue of allowing the doctors to determine when brain death is.

    Since a majority of poskim prohibit organ donation, (among them Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and Rav Eliezer Waldenberg who were very close to many medical experts) it is prohibited to donate organs.

    PS I’ll take the gehenim for all those who follow the leading poskim and are asked after 120 why they listened to them and not sam2!

    #853597

    cherrybim
    Participant

    “So give them yours”

    Highly inappropriate and insensitive comment in light of those Yidden who are critically ill.

    While disagreeing with Rav Moshe, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and Rav Eliezer Waldenberg have no issues with organ donations from live donors, i.e., kidney; liver parts; blood; bone marrow; or any other organ donation fitting within their criteria of live donor.

    #853598

    sushee
    Member

    The issue is that taking an organ will kill the person (i.e. cause heart failure.)

    #853599

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    “I am sure Hashem has enough kidneys in his bank account for me.”

    Tell that to the scores of Yidden who have been anxiously waiting for many months and longer for a compatible kidney donor. Time is running out for them.

    What is that supposed to mean?

    Hashem also has enough ability to heal them outright, and doesn’t do so.

    My point was that if we aren’t suppose to donate organs, then we can safely assume that Hashem isn’t going to cause more of us to die for that. We can safely assume Hashem runs the world and can make those who He wants to live, live; and those who He wants to die, die; regardless of whether we decide to donate organs.

    #853600

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Is there more to that definition alone that you did not post?

    Good point. I suppose he means irreversible cessation of breathing. Otherwise, a person holding his breath would be halachically dead.

    #853601

    ambush
    Participant

    <i>a heimish mom: i suggest you learn more about the over 200 orthodox rabbis that allow organ donations. please visit teh halachik organ donor website which identified them. you will find that calling them fringe rabbis is really a big mistake.</i>

    Take a look.

    I recognize Rabbanim there, although the major poskim are missing from this website, authorizing it.

    And this is not a simple topic any way you looks at it.

    #853602

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Saying Hashem can heal is nonsense

    Should one not take Medicine, because HASHEM CAN HEAL?

    What if someone says, I dont want Chemo because only hashem can heal….

    Surgery should be prohinited because “HASEHM CAN HEAL”

    #853603

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Saying Hashem can heal is nonsense

    Should one not take Medicine, because HASHEM CAN HEAL?

    Are you talking to me? I’m not exactly sure how you are responding.

    All I said was that we should follow halacha, and not worry about the consequences, because the same G-d who told us to follow halacha also runs the world, He can work it out for us however He wants.

    If you disagree with that, there is nothing more I can say. I don’t like to debate the ikarim of Judaism, on this site. (On other sites, I do. I get a kick out of making fools of people. Especially since they think they are so intellectual by virtue of being anti-frum, and that we are simpletons. Oh, I get such nice kicks. But I’m nice on this site.)

    #853604

    Health
    Participant

    cherrybim -“Highly inappropriate and insensitive comment in light of those Yidden who are critically ill.”

    No, it’s not. Practice what you preach!

    #853605

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    zahavasdad -)

    Saying Hashem can heal does not mean don’t take medicine. It means don’t worry if the only medicine for the illness is located on a faraway island surrounded by cannibals, or located in the body of someone who won’t give it up. If it is in reach, grab it. If it is out of reach, than Hashem either doesn’t mean for you to have it, or he will find a different way for you to get it. He can heal, He doesn’t need our permission.

    #853606

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Zahavasdad,

    I don’t think you meant it the way it came out, so I’ll explain where I think you misunderstood popa.

    I think you understood him to mean that since we rely on Hashem, we don’t need to do organ donations. By extension, we shouldn’t need to go to doctors either, you point out, which proves the fallacy of the original assumption.

    However, popa didn’t mean that we don’t do organ donations because Hashem heals anyway. He meant that we don’t do organ donations because we hold they are assur. Even if we would end up causing loss of human life, we would still follow halacha (such as in a case where avodah zarah, giluy arayos, or shfichas domim come into conflict with pikuach nefesh).

    What popa is adding, however, is that he doesn’t believe that the Ribono Shel Olam will allow anybody to die as a result of His children following His rules, and that He has at His disposal any number of ways to heal someone. I agree with popa.

    Popa, correct me if I misunderstood you.

    #853608

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    DY: That’s precisely what I mean. Thanks for elaborating it.

    #853609

    brainy
    Participant

    R’ Moshe Feinstein in a T’shuva (YD 2:174) http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=919&st=&pgnum=290, says that it is in fact a mitzva to donate an organ after death to save a life. The issue is that the organs are largely useless after complete cessation of heart function.

    Many want to claim that brain stem death is Halachic death even while there is still heart function, (organs donated at this point would still be valuable). Some claim that this position was agreed to by R’ Moshe. But whether R’ Moshe actually held this position although he never wrote it clearly in a T’shuva is a matter of great controversy and is at the heart of the debate about Halachic organ donation.

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