Is it okay to marry a Zionist?

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  • #1264108

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    I’ve been thinking. (Insert joke about how dangerous that is.)   We were wondering where the smoke was from. What if I had a daughter who was shidduch age, and she met the guy of her dreams, but he turned out to be a shtickle Zionistic? Would it be okay to let the shidduch go through, or must I charge in shouting “I object on the grounds that he is a Zionist!”?

    #1264162

    It depends whether or not you have any good recipes for homemade Greek yogurt.

    #1264180

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    I don’t make Greek yogurt. I don’t have any use for the huge amounts of whey you get after straining the yogurt.

    #1264191

    Joseph
    Participant

    It is the same answer as if she met the guy of her dreams but he turned out to be a shtickle flat-earther. Or a shtickle reform.

    #1264214

    Chaver
    Participant

    It’s a Mitzvah!!! She shouldn’t marry someone that doesn’t wait for Moshiach or doesn’t care about Eretz Yisrael

    #1264221

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    What if the guy turned out to be Satmar?

    #1264251

    Is there something wrong with Satmar? Or even a shtikle satmar?

    Let’s say he has a shtickle temper, or s stickle history if fighting with his neighbors?

    #1264250

    Chaver
    Participant

    What does one have to do/be/think/believe in order to be a Zionist?

    #1264253

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    She should marry him as then easily win him over by showing him kjchusid’s arguments.

    #1264271

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    What would you do then?

    #1264296

    Joseph
    Participant

    KJC didn’t offer any arguments; he just reprinted​ Rav Weissmandel’s presentation.

    #1264316

    mw13
    Participant

    What if the guy turned out to be a Satmar Zionist? Then she wouldn’t be able to show him kjchusid’s posts because he won’t use the internet!

    #1264411

    5ish
    Participant

    Seeing as Zionism is not Judaism, I would be very alarmed if one of my children were intending to marry someone who is not practicing Judaism. That being said, not always is the correct response to try to exert control as this may have even greater disastrous consequences r”l

    #1264421

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Seeing as wearing shoes is not breathing, I would be very alarmed if anyone I knew intended to wear shoes.

    #1264438

    Joseph
    Participant

    I’d marry a Satmar guy off to a Brisker girl.

    #1264437

    Chaver
    Participant

    5ish if as you say that Zionism is not Judiasim then she wouldn’t be allowed to marry someone like that. To marry someone not frum?

    #1264477

    5ish
    Participant

    You are correct, she should not be allowed to marry a Zionist. But there are a lot of things people are not allowed to do that there is no pragmatic way to stop them.

    #1264597

    yichusdik
    Participant

    Is it OK to agree to a shidduch with someone who rejects the words of the Novee Yirmiyahu, particularly perokim lamed and lamed alef? corollary of the question.

    #1264717

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Do I have the right to decide who my hypothetical daughter gets to marry?

    #1264720

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Is it okay to marry someone who is not perfect? What if my beshert meets the girl of his dreams (me) and finds out that she spends time online posting in the coffee room? Would he still be allowed to marry me?

    What if he found out that I’m imperfect in some other way (can’t think of anything but I’m sure there’s something)? Let’s say my middos aren’t perfect. Since having bad middos is not part of Judaism, does that mean I’m a goy and he shouldn’t marry me?

    #1264748

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “It’s a Mitzvah!!! She shouldn’t marry someone that doesn’t wait for Moshiach or doesn’t care about Eretz Yisrael”

    I’m not a zionist, but I wait for Mashiach and I care about Eretz Yisrael. In fact, I care so much that I am posting this out of Eretz Yisrael!

    #1264831

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    His argument is that caring about Eretz Yisrael makes one a Zionist.

    #1264862

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Is there a generally accepted definition of “Zionist”? I’ve tried to figure it out, without success.

    As best as I can determine, it seems to be a flexible political term, like “Jewish State”.

    #1264863

    Joseph
    Participant

    Other people argue that caring about the poor makes one a communist.

    #1264864

    Bookworm120
    Participant

    What’s “shtickle” mean?

    #1264867

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Right. And my point was that it doesn’t.

    #1264870

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Regarding the op, personally, I wouldn’t say no to someone who is a shtickel zionist.
    I think there are two basic issues:

    1. What does it mean that he is a shtickel zionistic? Are there any practical ramifications, and if so, what are they? For example, if the guy would send his kids to the same schools as your daughter would and has the same type of Rav and wouldn’t dream of sending his son to the army, respects the (Chareidi) Gedolim and the Chareidim, and the only practical ramification is that he has a bar-b-que on Yom HaAtzmaut and/or says Hallel without a bracha, I don’t see what the big deal is.

    2. #1 may have to be qualified depending on your daughter’s background/upbringing. When I wrote #2, I was thinking of myself. For me, coming from the background I am coming from and having the friends, social setting, and mentality that I have, it might not necessarily be such a big deal. My age also may make a difference.
    On the other hand, if you are talking about a girl who is coming from a very insulated, super-Israeli-Chareidi background, it might be a bigger deal.

    But even so, if she is happy and they have similar goals and values, and he has good middos, and #1 holds true, I wouldn’t recommend objecting.

    #1264879

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Semantics, nothing more.

    #1264884

    Nechomah
    Participant

    Bookworm, Shtickle means “a little bit” or a piece. It is a Yiddish word. In an example above, someone said they want a sthickle chocolate cake, that means they want a piece of chocolate cake.

    In the case of being a sthickle Zionist, it means the person being spoken about is a little bit Zionistic.

    #1264891

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Does not equal.

    #1264892

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I don’t think it’s just semantics.
    I thought (and still think) that he was trying to imply that someone who is not a zionist doesn’t care about EY.
    Is that what you meant, Chaver? If not, please clarify, because it does sound like it.

    Thanks!

    #1264893

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I don’t think it’s just semantics.
    I thought (and still think) that he was trying to imply that someone who is not a zionist doesn’t care about EY.
    Is that what you meant, Chaver? If not, please clarify, because it does sound like it.

    Thanks!

    #1264934

    mw13
    Participant

    Methinks DovidBT has hit the nail on the head:

    Is there a generally accepted definition of “Zionist”?

    If one is talking about the stream of Zionism that attempts to replace Judaism with secular nationalism, then Zionism is bad.

    If one is talking about the stream of Zionism that loves Eretz Yisroel because it is the land in wich we can best serve Hashem, then Zionism is good.

    If one lumps all of Zionism into one big boat and insists that it must all be labeled either the absolute kefira or one of the ikkurei emunah, Zionism is something to be debated ad nausem in the coffee room.

    #1264950

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    As expected, best can of worms ever.

    #1264956

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    When Frum people talk about Zionism, they don’t usually mean either one or the other exactly although it probably has some aspect of both.

    They are talking about some type of Religious Zionism which of course can mean many things.
    At the smallest level, it would probably mean celebrating Yom HaAtzmaut in some fashion. At a larger level, it can mean sending ones’ sons to the army and/or daughters to Sheirut Leumi, it can reflect itself in the types of schools one sends his kids to and the type of Rabbanim he follows and the types of neighborhood he would live in.

    #1265029

    mw13
    Participant

    As expected, best can of worms ever.

    Me & my deleted “Lack of Tzniyus is Out of Control” thread are personally insulted 😉

    #1265059

    Avi K
    Participant

    Reb Yidd, if he is only a shtickle you should object.

    LU, to where does a shitickle send his kids? Do they go to a Chariedi school until a certain age and then to a Zionistic school or vice versa. Do they go to a Charieidi school and have an after-school Zionist group or vice versa?

    In any case, she does not have to listen. Rav Moshe Soloveichik objected to Rav Joseph Ber’s choice (her parents were maskilim – and they also objected). The latter wrote him a very respectful halachic teshuva proving this. RMS told his friend that his son was right.

    #1265089

    As expected, best can of worms ever.

    Can of worms = troll thread. Not the best ever, but still excellent.

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