September 20, 2012 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #604939
I know about the prohibition of cooking. That’s not what I am asking about. The question is whether it is permitted for a goy to enter a sukkah? What about a goy servant which of course is permitted on shabbos and yom tovim? Is that goy that works for you allowed inside, or does the goy have to hand off the food?September 20, 2012 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #897680cherrybimParticipant
Yes, a goy is permitted to enter and enjoy a sukkah and sometimes it’s encouraged.September 20, 2012 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #897681sheinMember
What would be the possible problem of him entering the Suckah?September 20, 2012 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #897682
I remember seeing in a sefer that a non Jew shouldnt enter the succah as the succah is the “kanfei Hashechinos” and he doesnt belong there.
Additionally I heard in a shiur from Rav Moshe Meir Weiss that one should be very careful about this.September 20, 2012 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #897683WolfishMusingsParticipant
What is your reasoning for thinking that it might be prohibited?
The WolfSeptember 20, 2012 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #897685
I cannot recall if I saw it in mishna berura or in piskei tshuvos, however one of them mention that it’s not appropiate to have a goy in the sukkah.September 20, 2012 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #897686
WIY: That’s ridiculous. It’s against a Mishnah. A Goy can enter a Sukkah. (And I very surprisingly heard a big Rav Mattir having a non-Jew over for a Yom Tov meal if he is in the process of converting. I honestly have no idea how that Heter is legitimate though.)September 20, 2012 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #897687besalelParticipant
the concept cited by WIH that the sukka is kanfei hashchinos and therefore this thing or that thing is not permitted in a sukka is really a problematic concept because i have seen it cited to the point where the sukka is no longer ke’in taduru and therefore, it does appear to place this kabbalistic concept in direct contradiction with halocho which requires that you treat your sukka like your home and do in your sukka what you do in your home.September 20, 2012 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #897688🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
We used to have a guest regularly who was in the process of converting. I remember he would stop by before yom tov to make a kinyon on the food, but I don’t know why that would make sense, then I would be cooking HIS food on Yom Tov. Maybe I am remembering it wrong or forgetting something. Sam2, any thoughts?September 20, 2012 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #897689
Due to the extreme holiness of the Sukkah, it is proper not to invite non-Jews to enter the Sukkah. (See Shach Al HaTorah Parshas Emor and Kaf HaChaim Siman 639:6)
This is not a halachic issue but more an inyan, however strictly al pi halacha it is mutar.September 20, 2012 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #897690cherrybimParticipant
Several years ago I asked a shaila of a reknowned Rav concerning having a goy for the seudah on sukkos and was given the go ahead. Also, goyim were permitted to bring karbanos in the bais hamikdash; so is a sukkah any less kadosh?September 20, 2012 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #897691
WIY: Okay, I’ll be safe in violating this “Inyan” (whatever that means) along with Rabban Gamliel. That’s fine by me. (I don’t actually plan on having any Goyim in my Sukkah this year, but there’s definitely no problem with it.)
And the whole thing doesn’t make sense. “Extreme holiness”? A Sukkah is Tashmishei Mitzvah, not Tashmishei Kedushah. That’s almost like the Chabad “S’vara” that a Sukkah is so holy that it would be inappropriate to sleep in it, therefore they don’t sleep in a Sukkah. It’s ridiculous and Mamash against Halachah. Ein Lanu Eisek B’nistaros. Hanistaros LaHashem Elokeinu V’haniglos Lanu Ulvaneinu Ad Olam.September 20, 2012 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #897692
Sam: You aren’t arguing with WIY. You are arguing with the holy Achronim cited here. You think they didn’t know the counterarguments you present here?September 20, 2012 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #897693
Iced: And those holy Achronim are arguing with the Gemara and our Mesorah. It’s fine. Poskim have some things Al Pi Kaballah all the time. The Kaf Hachayim does it more than others. But saying Ein Lanu Eisek B’nstaros if a valid response and, in this case, Al Pi Nigleh the discussion doesn’t even begin.September 21, 2012 1:54 am at 1:54 am #897694
There are many people who are makpid on kabbalahdik “inyanim” especially those with a chassidish background.September 21, 2012 2:16 am at 2:16 am #897695
WIY: Look, this “Inyan” is an absolute Busha. Or are you really going to try and tell me that Rabban Gamliel “desecrated the holiness of a Sukkah” or something like that by allowing his Eved K’na’ani in? It’s ridiculous and it’s against our Mesorah. If someone wants to say Al Pi Nistar that the idea means something, fine. But don’t bring it into this world.September 21, 2012 2:21 am at 2:21 am #897696
Sam vs. the Achronim.
Sam, please don’t be embarassed to recognize that Yidden are far better than goyim.September 21, 2012 2:48 am at 2:48 am #897697
Iced: I never said that was the Busha. The Busha was that it would imply that Rabban Gamliel violated the Kedushah of his Sukkah, which is ridiculous. There’s nothing to violate because a Sukkah has no Kedushah.September 21, 2012 3:09 am at 3:09 am #897698
Do did you ever hear about the “Ushpizin”? Do you say the Tefillah in the machzor about the Ushpizin? Do you believe that the Avos come visit us in our Succah? Do you think a goy “belongs” there?
Furthermore, Rabban Gamliels eved was an eved knani and is chayyiv in mitzvos (like an isha) and has a bris milah and his eved was a talmud chacham, dont compare an eved knani especially Rabban Gamliels eved to a stam non Jew, I think you are more learned than that!!!September 21, 2012 4:33 am at 4:33 am #897699
WIY: If a Goy is Assur then a Goy is Assur. An Eved K’naani isn’t a Jew. He doesn’t have Kedushas Yisrael. And yes, Tevi was a Goy and a Talmid Chacham. That doesn’t give him Kedushas Yisrael.
Also, a Sukkah built by a Nochri is Kasher. How does that fit with this? Halachah isn’t about “feelings” or who “belongs” in a Sukkah. Halachah tells us who belongs in a Sukkah. It tells us who is allowed in a Sukkah and who isn’t. If you want to determine that based on who it feels right if they “belong” in there, then Reform Judaism allows you to determine Halachah like that. But last time I checked, in Orthodox Judaism, Halachah tells us how we should feel and not the other way around. Halachah tells us who “belongs” in a Sukkah. Our feelings don’t tell Halachah who “belongs”.September 21, 2012 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #897700ChortkovParticipant
dont compare an eved knani especially Rabban Gamliels eved to a stam non Jew
I don’t understand – what does ‘especially Rabban Gamliels’ mean? If a normal Eved Knani is assur, he is also, and if a normal eved is muttar, so is RGs?
I don’t think anybody argues here on the topic of discussion: “IS IT PERMISSIBLE TO HAVE A GOY IN A SUKKAH” — The answer according to everybody is Yes.
Those Makpid on Kabbalah or Chassidus should better be Machmir – the rest of us who learn Halachah will be fine.
Accurate summary?September 21, 2012 12:54 pm at 12:54 pm #897701popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Sam! I’m a bit surprised by what you are saying in this thread. The acharonim are arguing with the gemara and our mesorah?September 21, 2012 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #897702
The Achronimi do not say that it is Assur.
Only that one should not do it, since there is an issue with theh Kedusha of the sukka.
this has nothing to do with a Goy building a sukka before sukkas, and has nothing to do with Halcha, this is just and Inyan.September 21, 2012 1:17 pm at 1:17 pm #897703mms601Participant
Al pi nigleh.
1. The succah is zecher l’annanei hakavod, which the erev rav where outside of.
2. you don’t bring keep dirty pots in your succah even though you’d it in your house, and this does not violate k’ein taduru.September 21, 2012 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #897704
The problem is that the goy has an adjoining apartment and we share a terrace where I am going to be having the sukkah. Also, I am going to be having guests over and I do not to exclude the goy. The question is whether the possible assur of having a goy in a sukkah outweighs are obligation to be a shining light onto the world. Also, is it possible for the goy the render the sukkah tumah or give it a tzaris affliction?September 21, 2012 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #897705
It is not Assur. only an Inyan.
the sukka does NOT become Tuma. period!September 21, 2012 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #897706yichusdikParticipant
Iced, you wrote “…please don’t be embarrassed to recognize that Yidden are far better than goyim.”
Jews have more responsibilities than goyim and therefore have more potential for zchuyos if we fulfill them. Jews have a special and specific tafkid in the world that goyim don’t have. Jews have the benefit of Torah – but also have the responsibility to fill the world with its light. Jews have had the crucible of persecution and exile to clarify and purify us in a way the goyim will not have.
So if in that respect you mean better, you are right, but better describes it less accurately than chosen.
But if you mean it simply by virtue of being a Goldstein, Levine, or Nussbaum, and that a Jew who tarnishes his mesorah by being a thief or an abuser or a criminal is any “better” than a non Jew – especially a non Jew who lives a good and moral life, you would seem to me to be hopelessly deluded and unjustifiably chauvinistic.September 21, 2012 1:55 pm at 1:55 pm #897707Oh Shreck!Participant
A Yovon in Sukkah?!?September 21, 2012 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #897708
Yichus: Jews are much much better and greater than goyim in ALL respects. Period. It’s not even a close call.September 21, 2012 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #897709
We may in essence and potential be better in that we have a Neshama and they dont so we come from a higher place from under the kisei hakavod and we have a greater mission in life and all that…but that doesnt mean in practice that every Jew is better than every non Jew. There are many non Jews who keep the 7 Noahide laws and many Jews which are OTD and dont keep the Torah so the non Jews who do what they are supposed to do are better than the Jews not doing what they are supposed to do. This is an important distinction. There are and have been plenty of Jews that are very bad evil cruel people that have murdered molested robbed and done other terrible things and they are worse than a non Jew. It is easier, way easier to be a good non Jew than to be a good Jew.September 21, 2012 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #897710dafbiyunParticipant
sam2: 1.The Rambam defines an eved canani as one who has left the status of being a goy but has not yet reached the status of kdushas yisroal.Accordingly,any discussion of tevi is not on point.
2.With respect to the Lubavich minhag not to sleep in the succah their reasoning is a bit different(and perhaps even more krum) than simply “it is to holy to sleep in”. The argument,as I undertand it, is that since we can not percieve the Shichina when sleeping in the succah, as the Mittlle Rebbe apparently did, we are all mitzta’ar from the recognition of our lowly level which in turn patters us from sleeping in the succah.September 21, 2012 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #897711yichusdikParticipant
Bernie Madoff better than Raoul Wallenberg?
Levi Aron better than Johann Reuchlin?
Achan Ben Carmi better than Rachav?
Seriously?September 21, 2012 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #897712
Yichus: Yes, in all cases. The Jew is intrinsically better than the comparitive sheigetz. Even if the Jew didn’t recognize and utilize his intrinsic goodness.September 21, 2012 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #897713BaalHaboozeParticipant
It is brought down that one should avoid having a goy come into his sukkah, because the sukkah has Kedushas HaChil, the holiness of the area of the Azarah in the B”H where goyim were not allowed to enter.
Also that’s why we shouldn’t have a goy put up the s’chach. Because since that is the ikkar part of the sukkah (zeicher the Annanei HaKovod).
It is also called the Tzail DimiHeiminusa. The sukkah is infused with tremendous kedusha.
Therefore if one has a goyish neighbour or friend that wishes to see his decorated sukka, either invite them before sukkos or on simchas torah.September 21, 2012 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #897715
One should not have a goy as a friend ever, any time of the year.September 21, 2012 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #897716
BaalHabooze: And maybe one shouldn’t sit in a Sukkah either because it’s Assur to sit in the Azarah? Come on. A Sukkah isn’t even Tashmishei Kedushah. It’s Tashmishei Mitzvah. Your Retzuos Shel T’fillin have more Kedushah than your Sukkah.September 21, 2012 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #897718yeshivaboy613Member
I dont even hear your shaila! why wouldnt he.September 23, 2012 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #897719
What if the goy is an idolator? I know everybody is going to want to bring Avraham Avienu and inviting the melachem into his home and this and that…fine. But should I have the goy clean his feet before coming into the sukkah then or have him wash in another way? Even if you want to say, and we’ll say like a previous poster who says the sukkah cannot become spiritually contaminated, it still seems like the right thing to do. I understand that halacha is halacha and nowehere does it say there is an issur to bring a goy into a sukkah but that does not mean it is mutar!September 23, 2012 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #897720
Bamorga: Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. If there’s no Issur then why isn’t it Muttar?September 23, 2012 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #897721popa_bar_abbaParticipant
A better question is whether an ???? ??? is kosher for schach, since it is gidulei karka.September 23, 2012 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #897722
Just because there is no explicit issur does not make something mutar. Halacha cannot cover every single possible situation and the misha berura as such does not have a section dealing with goyim in the sukkah. That is what needs to be interpreted.September 23, 2012 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #897723
Bamorga: That is ridiculous and borderline (and I’m only adding the word borderline to be nice) Apikorsus. We have a Mesorah and a Halachah that does cover every scenario. And if this precise case isn’t mentioned in specific detail, then the general rule is. There is no rule Assering having a Goy in a Sukkah. Hence, it’s Muttar. We are a religion that believes in a Mesorah that tells us what’s right and wrong and tells us what’s Assur. If you want to make up your own “Halachos” based on… (I have no idea, what are you basing it on?) then Orthodox Judaism is not for you.September 23, 2012 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #897724
There are things that shouldnt be done because they dont conform to the letter of the law, other things because they dont conform to the spirit of the law. There are things that shouldnt be done due to sensitivity to the spirit of the law.
I dont know why you shake off “inyanim” “chassidus” and kaballa. Halacha is the nigleh of kaballah. Whether you like it or not when we wave a lulav and esrog it keeps away the bad ruchois. That is a fact that isnt halachic but you must know that the halacha is just the outside but theres a lot more going on than what meets the eye. Maybe take the time to learn some nistar and get in touch with pnimius hatorah.September 24, 2012 12:10 am at 12:10 am #897725
Sam2: I beg to differ. If Halacha and Mesorah covered every detail there would be nothing to learn or interpret. The logic that just because it is not a codified issur means something is mutar is nonsensical. I think it is apikorus to not to try to figure out what chazal would want us to do about the goy.September 24, 2012 3:06 am at 3:06 am #897726
Bamorga: Chazal told us what to do about the Goy. Chazal had Goyim in their own Sukkos. But I guess you are more sensitive to the “hidden Issurim” of Torah than Chazal were. And it’s our job to understand Chazal and Mesorah, not to invent new ones. Everything is found in Torah. Are you really so arrogant to think that you have found an Issur that Chazal and all the Rishonim missed? Your idea abrogates Mesorah entirely. Why look at what the Halachah is? We should just try and figure out what Chazal wanted us to do on our own because of course they couldn’t tell us? It’s arrogance, it’s denying our Mesorah, and it’s pure Apikorsus.
WIY: Lulav being M’ratzeh for the Ruchos is in Nigleh too. Look, we have a tradition that when Nigleh contradicts Nistar we have to Pasken like the Nigleh. The basic explanation that I have from my Rebbeim is that Nistar explains and complements the Nigleh. But all of Halachah is found in Nigleh. In fact, I was once told by a huge and well-respected Talmid Chacham not to worry if I ever found that Nigleh contradicted Nistar. The reason we Pasken by Nigleh is that all of our Nistar is based off Shittas R’ Shimon, so if there’s ever a contradiction it’s just that we don’t hold by R’ Shimon in that matter but that the other Tannaim also had Nistar to explain their Shittos as well. But Halachah L’ma’aseh, Ein Lanu Eisek B’nistaros.
I am calling troll on this entire thread, by the way. I just noticed that the same person began the thread with a question and now all of a sudden has a clarity on it like it’s a Halachah L’moshe Misinai. I’m not sure why this poster decided to push this random agenda, but I’m calling troll.September 24, 2012 3:51 am at 3:51 am #897727
It is very common to have things that al pi halacha is mutar but al pi nistar it should be avoided. I dont think that nistar is saying assur just saying strongly that one should avoid it. Thats not a stira. A stira would be if shulchon aruch says flat out that a non Jew may be in the succah and nistar says no he may not be. However in our case halacha didnt say one way or the other so taking on the nistar aspect is recommended when possible.
I just want to clarify that I am not racist or bigoted in any way and I make sure to treat non Jews with respect as human beings however I do recognize that “ata vechartanu mikal hoamim, ahavta osanu veratzisa vonu veromamtanu mikol halshonos vekidashtonu…”September 24, 2012 5:27 am at 5:27 am #897728
WIY: And I’m saying that that can’t be in this case because we have a precedent from Chazal themselves. So while it might be that the idea of a Goy doesn’t mix with the idea of a Sukkah, in practical life there is no reason to avoid allowing the former inside the latter.September 24, 2012 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #897730BaalHaboozeParticipant
“BaalHabooze: And maybe one shouldn’t sit in a Sukkah either because it’s Assur to sit in the Azarah? Come on. A Sukkah isn’t even Tashmishei Kedushah. It’s Tashmishei Mitzvah. Your Retzuos Shel T’fillin have more Kedushah than your Sukkah.”
I NEVER said that sukka takes on the HALACHOS of the Azarah! You have this funny shittah, just because you seem to be knowlegable in actual halacha le’ma’ayseh, there are a whole slew of seforim who teach us of important inyonim, and divrei soyd that are also torah. when the sefer I quoted said that it had a built-in kedusha, I also explicitly quoted that “one should AVOID having a goy come into his sukkah”
No Issurim, NO halachos, just an inyan that it is inappropriate to have a goy come to your sukkah.
There is only ONE place in the entire year where we have choshuva guests, none other than the 7 Ushpizen- not in your house, not in ANYWHERE but to your holy sukkah.September 24, 2012 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #897731
I already explained to you that an eved kenani is different. They have mila, tevilah and are chayyiv in some mitzvos knashim. I dont think halacha or kabalah equates a non Jew with an eved kenani so we have no precedent.September 24, 2012 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #897732shmoolik 1Participant
They are not kosher for scach maybe ok for decoation
in the future they will come to the rebuilt Bayit and celebrate Sucot
according to the Navi Zecharya as mentioned in the haftara of first day Sucot
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