July 25, 2010 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #592022Truth1Member
I know to lie is wrong but if you say the truth someone will feel bad… For example the cooking is bad and your asked how is it…. or other examples … add you stories… How do you know what is the right thing to say?July 25, 2010 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #691343arcParticipant
it says midvar sheker tirchak not “only say the truth”. In your examples use common sense.July 25, 2010 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #691344fabieMember
Chazal bring a few examples of when it is pemissible to lie, avoid the truth etc.
Kala noeh vecahsudah
3 things it is permisable to change forJuly 25, 2010 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #691345Aishes ChayilParticipant
Your allowed to lie for sholom BayisJuly 25, 2010 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #691346YTVYTTCBBRKLYNMember
It is not Assur to lie ,only in a beis Din in the gemara there are many examples Rav Kanevisky says this in his Pirush on Measechtas KUTIMJuly 25, 2010 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #691347
Lying for the sake of material personal gain or to avoid facing consequences for one’s actions, is assur. Some types of lying to protect someone from embarrassment or for sholom bayis, are permitted (some, but not all). Hashem lied to Avraham about Sara’s actual words when she laughed at being told she would have a baby. She called Avraham “zakein” and Hashem told Avraham she said SHE was too old.July 25, 2010 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #691348fabieMember
???? ?? ????? ??? ?????: ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???????: ?????, ??????? ?????????.July 26, 2010 2:00 am at 2:00 am #691349Sister BearMember
There is a Gemara, I do not know where, that says its permissable to be ???? for Shalom and it might even be considered a mitzva. Lying is assur, but not everyone says from ???? ??? ????. Most (I believe the Rambam and the like) hold that its falls under ????? ?????, where then it would be muttar to be change around like by Sara, and what the brother’s said to Yosef, and Hashem told Shmuel to go annoint Dovid but to say he was bringing Korbanos.
Being ???? means stressing a different thing, or leaving something out. You are allowed to give the wrong impression, ex. if someone asks where you’re going you could say how do you go…
You do have to be careful not to actually lie. Ex. if doing a prank call (its the first thing that came to mind) you cant say Hi, I’m Bob or wtvr but if they ask whats your name you could say Bob.
If its for personal gain its assur.July 26, 2010 2:23 am at 2:23 am #691350HealthParticipant
You aren’t allowed to lie about a shidduch, but you don’t have to offer the info -they have to ask. Saying tell me about him/her isn’t called asking – they have to ask specifics. Also telling white lies or outright lies -if the person is made to think differently than the reality it’s Genevas Daas. All the cases of the gemorrah that’s mutter fall under Sholom. Redding a shidduch and lying doesn’t fall under the catergory of Sholom.July 29, 2010 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #691351YTVYTTCBBRKLYNMember
Reb Elchonon also said it in Kovetz I frget whereJuly 30, 2010 5:17 am at 5:17 am #691352ronrsrMember
If a bridegroom should ask you if his bride is pretty, you may lie, no matter how bad she looks. To tell the truth would diminish his joy, and in this case, you should lie. I suppose the same is true if your wife should ask you if she looks fat.
The same is true with any nonrefunduable acquisition. You should rave about the wonderful house your cousin just bought, no matter whether it was a good purchase on his part.July 30, 2010 7:24 am at 7:24 am #691353Baal BooseParticipant
lETS UP THE ANTE;
iS IT PERMITTED TO NOT PAY TAXES ON CASH SALES.July 30, 2010 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #691354
Unfortunately, exact Halachos about emes v’sheker are not in the Shulchan Aruch, hence the obvious confusion about lying.
There certainly is no Klal that one may lie for Shalom Bayis. Nor that one may not for shidduchim. One would be hard pressed to find a source in Rishonim that applies Midbar Sheker Tirchak to something which does not cause damage to another.
Beyond that, there is a concept of Hin Tzedek, of one getting used to being a truthly person. But that is not midbar sheker tirchak.
To lie in such which a way which causes damage – that is, to lie when the other person has a right to know – is forbidden. But the underlying concept here is right to know. A Talmid Chacham may lie about those things because the asker has no right to know them.
However, this gets extremely murky. What’s called a “right to know”? What’s called “damage”. Many Poskim have applied this to lie within reason about a girl’s age in shidduchim, because it is irrelevant (not 20 to 30, but what about 24 to 23?). Hence, the right to know evaporates. The waters are murky. Mishaneh Mifney Darkey Shalom – which most poskim apply to even outwardly lying if it so necessary – is a similar concept. Rabbenu Yonah states that one may not lie in such a way to cause damage to another person. Only, when the situation is truly a peaceful one, merely something irrelevant was said or done, and will destroy the legitimate and real peace (and hence there is no real knowledge to be gained) may lying be employed.
It really is case by case to decide what’s called irrelevant and no right to know. If a boy smoked in high school, is that relevant, and has now quit. Or if his family uses plastic? May one lie? The waters are murky, indeed. Hence the happy usage of a local orthodox Rabbi, or at the very least, Husband.July 30, 2010 12:09 pm at 12:09 pm #691355
Not paying taxes is a different issue. The question is a) The obligation of Dina D’Malchusa, which the poskim seem to apply to the United States (Israel, of course, is a different can of worms). But the question is then what is noheg. If the entire USA does not pay taxes, or at least a significant proportion don’t, then the law is not really enforced. We deal with realities. For instance, jaywalking when there is no car in sight presumably would not a violation of Dina D’Malchusa.
But, I personally think that the goverment is makpid on cash sales, certainly for large items when the sum is significant. Has there ever been real enforcement in this area? Or is it in the empty realm of unenforced laws and uncollected fines?July 30, 2010 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #691356
If a bridegroom should ask you if his bride is pretty, you may lie, no matter how bad she looks. To tell the truth would diminish his joy, and in this case, you should lie. I suppose the same is true if your wife should ask you if she looks fat.”
As ebauty is subjective, you may lie, because to him, his bride IS pretty. And if one’s wife EVER asks, “Does this make me look fat,” there is only one right answer, “Honey, you look gorgeous!”
There is always a way to answer a question without techinically lying. The friend of the chosson could always answer, “She is really something, you lucky man!”July 30, 2010 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #691357ronrsrMember
yes, Oomis, but there would be no harm in telling him she is a knockout.July 30, 2010 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #691358postsemgirlMember
If someone asks if you are dating then you are allowed to lie because for tznius reasons.July 30, 2010 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #691359
yes, Oomis, but there would be no harm in telling him she is a knockout. “
I don’t really disagree, BUT – that would already be an exaggeration, and I guess I feel that would be wrong, when there is a less problematic way of expressing the same thing.August 1, 2010 8:49 am at 8:49 am #691360
This all based on the principle of ‘what is the real truth’. When dating – the other person has no right to know if you are dating or not. The chosson truly does see his kallah as beautiful in his eyes, he merely wants positive feedback and encouragement. And the wife? She knows exactly where she stands in objective terms; she wants to know if to her husband she is still queen. The idea is that all of these responses are the real truth.August 1, 2010 12:36 pm at 12:36 pm #691361
MOQ, you’re right.August 1, 2010 1:24 pm at 1:24 pm #691362
Let me even add, to the say the opposite is forbidden, because often the technical truth is a lie. One may not say the truth when one must lie, because the truth is a lie! R’ Dessler writes about this at length. The husband must say that his wife is beautiful (and may not blame the ensuing disaster on his integrity!)August 1, 2010 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #691363HealthParticipant
Moq – In other post discussions you say get to the root of the problem. I’m not a poisek, but if someone asks you if a boy smoked in High School or if the family uses plastic on Shabbos or whatever, why can’t you answer -what is the purpose of this info? Why must one feel as if they have to answer everything? This might shut them up and back off from the question. If they give a good reason, so then you can answer them. If not, you must answer – I don’t know-I’ll get back to you (and never do), or outright lie and say No. You can’t just answer in this case- it might be L.H. or I’ll get back you-I have to ask a shailah, because that’s telling them the answer.August 2, 2010 12:51 am at 12:51 am #691364
If someone asked me such a dumb question as do they use plastic, I would tell them that’s a foolish question, having nothing to do with the menschlechkeit of the family.August 2, 2010 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #691365bptParticipant
I’ll lie about a dress my Mrs wears, even if I don’t like it because she likes it so why make her feel bad. But when a dish is a bomb, I’ll tell her I liked XYZ that was made last week better, because there she has my likes in mind.
Not an outright lie, but not exacly the truth either, so I’d list that one as an off white lieAugust 2, 2010 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #691366bptParticipant
BTW, I’ll proably ask the “plastic” question, but only to determine that our families are truly compatible. Not that I would nix a china only family, but given the choice…
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