February 8, 2022 11:49 am at 11:49 am #2058429
With all the rising anti Jewish attacks in so many states and big cities, is this the wake up call to think about packing our bags? It never happens overnight and we all know that antisemitism breaks out in stages with subtle occurrences that are easy to ignore and look the other way. But we are seeing so many adding up and way too frequently. Are we headed towards publicly accepted antisemitism?February 8, 2022 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #2058681Yabia OmerParticipant
The short answer is, unfortunately, yes. This happened in England a thousand years ago, in Spain during the Inquisition, the Holocaust. Ein chadash tachas hashemesh.February 8, 2022 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #2058695
Is any other place better?February 8, 2022 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #2058708
And it happened in Israel twiceFebruary 8, 2022 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #2058701
I am not rejecting a possibility that things can turn sour for Jews at any place/time, but right now if you cross the bridge from Brooklyn into America and avoid several cesspools, you will be OK.
editedFebruary 8, 2022 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #2058716
I’m not sure what other place is better which is the problem however it’s known that all the Empires turned on the Jews especially Edom and America is the empire of the world. As bad as the Israeli government is it’s still our only land that nobody can factually state otherwise, although who knows what will remain of it with the weak government paired up with the immense pressure of the world for a Palestinian state.February 8, 2022 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #2058726February 8, 2022 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #2058729☕️coffee addictParticipant
Hashem is trying to show us a lesson and I don’t think the answer is run away
Hashem is in control of our lives הכל בידי שמים and if Hashem decided you should get a zetz it won’t matter if it’s in America by an African American or by a Russian or Arab
The point of life if to grow and become closer to Hashem not to live in peaceFebruary 8, 2022 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #2058732akupermaParticipant
If the fire pan is too hot, feel free to jump into the fire.February 8, 2022 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #2058743
Commonsaychel, and what’s your point? Are you upset at those who managed to escape Germany etc. since they should have just trusted G-D?February 8, 2022 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #2058741
Meshaneh makom meshanah mazal applies to a yochid; when klal yisroel has a gezerah, running away won’t help. It will follow us wherever we go, because Hashem’s decrees are inevitable.
In europe, jews tried to avoid the gezerah with shtadlonus
In eretz yisroel, they accepted that romel was 2 days away and turned to the ribono shel olam; the chazon ish said that if the yiden in europe would have done the same, there wouldn’t have been a Holocaust there either.
Hashem is everywhereFebruary 8, 2022 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #2058755
Considering the state sanctioned pogroms that took place in Israel last may and a government there that does not see itself as a protector of Jewish lives,rather a ‘state of all it’s citizens’ it would seem that going to ey is not an improvement over the sakkanos that exists to yidden in America.February 8, 2022 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #2058765
Hold on so let me get this straight. Many comments saying running away isnt the solution. Why do you call it running away? Thats like saying you are near an active volcano and have a few days to get elsewhere but you choose to stay in that area since you dont want to be “running away”.
Isnt there an idea of keeping yourself safe? Are you saying those who managed to escape the Holocaust made a mistake? Should they all have just stayed and accepted fate? Also in this case it is different since its possible we are in the last stage of the Golus so maybe its the final push who knows.February 8, 2022 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #2058789
> Considering the state sanctioned pogroms
> you are near an active volcano
Why are you so over-the-top? If you don’t appreciate all goodness that Hashem gives you in current EY/US/UK/Canada/AUS – then you H’V calling His bluff?! It is fine to worry about future, but enjoy the good weather and use it to learn/do mitzvos.February 8, 2022 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #2058793KuvultParticipant
It’s fine. People panic way to easily especially those who live off the Holocaust. Look at history Chanukah, the Greek Govt, Purim, the Persian govt, Bais Sheni, the Roman govt, Spain, the govt (King), the Nazis, the German govt, the Soviets, the Russian govt. The only time Jews faced a real threat was when it was backed by a powerful govt.
The most famous Pogrom was Kishniev. There were 50,000 Jews living there and 49 were killed. A tragedy yes, but a real threat to Jews, No.
We are having lone attacks (mostly low level like a punch to the back of the head) by mostly mentally I’ll jerks mixed with a few higher functioning ones like Poway or Pittsburgh. The govt does not support encourage or ignore them. Quite the opposite. A Swastika was found where I’m from and local and state police and FBI all investigated. When the govt turns, then start to worry.February 8, 2022 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #2058803
Kuvult, your view of the isolated attacks is the exact problem. When “isolated” attacks happen one after the other consistently, then yes it is time to give it some attention. And in the recent years there have been too many isolated attacks and accusations of the Jews spreading Covid, Jews not vaccinated, Jews created Covid and control everything. You are certainly aware that things dont happen overnight right? The Holocaust lehavdil did not happen overnight it was a process of at least 6 years since Hitler y”s rose to power and slowly there were more and more attacks on Jews by civilians themselves with the government doing nothing to stop it.
“When the govt turns, then start to worry.”
-Well I think we got a small glimpse of that when DeBlasio and Cuomo labeled all Jewish ares in NYC as “Red Zones” in terms of Covid and restricted only those Jewish neighborhoods and got more brazen about explicitly stating their dangerous and hateful rhetoric despite other non Jewish areas with higher infection rates. That just proves to you that it can happen anywhere.
Im not saying C”VS that something will happen, but unfortunately as you prove from your reply it is just too easy to ignore anti semitism outbreaks and label hem as isolated attacks.
How many Asians were assaulted and how many advertising has NYC put up to “stop Asian Hate”? On the other hand how many shuls and Yeshivas were set on fire, vandalized, in addition to Jews being attacked in the street…how many ads on public transportation have we seen to stop this? Not even one.February 8, 2022 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #2058807
Kuvult > The only time Jews faced a real threat was when it was backed by a powerful govt.
The most famous Pogrom was Kishniev.
The definition of “pogrom” is not just random violence, but violence supported by the government. If Jews were to try fight back, police will join against them. That is what it was in Russia, and not B;H currently, as you are saying.February 8, 2022 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #2058808TRUEBTParticipant
Packing our bags? No. Making a passport, Yes.
Moving to E”Y is definitely be one way to do Tshuva on assimilating with Goyische culture in America. There are other ways to do Tshuva.
Sanhedrin 104a: “The Rabbis comment on the verse “How she dwelled alone.” (Lamentations 1:1).
Rabbah, in the name of Rabbi Yochanan says, “I (=Hashem) said, ‘Israel – dwell separate and secure, the eye of Jacob.’ (Deut. 33:28). Now, they will be separated and alone. It is Hashem’s will that we be separate and alone by willingly separating ourselves from the nations of the world. If we had done so, we would have dwelt securely. Now that we have failed to do so willingly, we will be separated from the nations of the world against our will. ”February 8, 2022 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #2058817
TrueBT- The assimiliation you speak of can be said the same of in Israel. Most people with money will buy expensive cars and houses. What Goyishe culture are you referring to exactly because im pretty sure Boro Park and the like do not seem to be so influenced by Goyishe culture.February 9, 2022 8:17 am at 8:17 am #2058865
When the police do nothing to stop the rioters and arrests and prosecutes Jews who try to defend themselves against the rioters that is a government sponsored pogrom.February 9, 2022 8:18 am at 8:18 am #2058866
Thank you aaq for letting us know how lacking we are in terms of appreciating Hashems goodness.February 9, 2022 8:42 am at 8:42 am #2058894
It says אין יום שאין קללתו מרובה מחבירו there is no day that does not get worse. Maybe, this is for our benefit. The Kli Yakar on ‘ופרצת ימה וקדמה וכו asks why in extreme order? He explains that Meshiach will come when we reach the lowest level, such that we can only rely on Hashem. So we are getting closer and closer to the coming of Meshiach.February 9, 2022 8:44 am at 8:44 am #2058893smerelParticipant
>>>With all the rising anti Jewish attacks in so many states and big cities, is this the wake up call to think about packing our bags?
If you wouldn’t follow social media and have been around in the seventies you would realize that there is no major increase in these type of attacks.
To quote Rav Avigdor Miller on peace of mind “Don’t read the newspapers! They are going to tell you that hooligans are running around in Boro Park beating up innocent people. They are going to fill your minds with all sorts of problems with all sorts of problems you an do nothin but otherwise never would have heard of” This was fifty years ago. Today substitute social media for newspapers
>>>When the police do nothing to stop the rioters and arrests and prosecutes Jews who try to defend themselves against the rioters that is a government sponsored pogrom.
The first half is exactly happened thirty years ago during the Crown Heights pogrom. The police did not arrest Jews who tried to defend themselves because few tried but the liberal media made it sound as if the Jews were the aggressors or at least equally at fault .
What is a problem is that the increasing hostility to religion in general among the more liberal circles. e.g. Forty years ago The New York Times and those type of publications were anti-Semitic but they did not mock frum people per se. I do think that things will get worse in a general sense in America but not to the degree of needing to run awayFebruary 9, 2022 9:44 am at 9:44 am #2058944BarryLS1Participant
You can delude yourself all you want. Learn from history. Hashem is sending you a message. Ilived on the U. S. For the first 57 years of my life. I can tell you that Israel os infinetly better, perfect no, but much better.
If all the Jews would come home, where Hashem wants us to be, things would change for the better and it send a message that we really do want Moshiach, not just pay lip service to it.February 9, 2022 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #2058951
I was not clear earlier – “the police doing nothing to stop the rioters and instead arresting and prosecuting Jews who tried to defend themselves against the rioters” –
was referring to the events of may in eretz Yisroel which to me were a real sea change, bc I never thought the medina would mamesh be mafkir citizens who live in lod, akko, yaffo and anywhere else Arabs live – which is almost everywhere.
This does not mean one should NOT move to ey, just don’t do it for security reasons bc at the moment I would say ey is less safe for Jews than anywhere else- b’derech hateva of course.
In contrast, De’vayle – from what I can tell Jews are still basically safe in America as well as other western European countries.
However, if you live in a neighborhood tzumished with certain ethnic groups, there is no way of knowing when the hatred those people have for us will explode and if the trend of defund/disrespect/ambush/hunt down the police continues etc. another round of george Floyd type riots might get pretty hairy.
Moreover, So long as the iljlhan Omar/tlaaaab/aoc’s don’t attain too much power American Jewry is fine. It is once they start really calling the shots that you need to really pay attention.
(A large scale right wing reaction to left wing excess that blames the Jews – not wo basis, I might add- is also a possibility, but rather vyte, and not really on the radar at the moment)
This hasnt happened yet. And there is no of knowing what the future holds. Most German Jews and Kal v’chomer eastern European Jews did not think that yimach shmo would do or be able to do what he said he would do. And indeed there was a good number of years even after he came to power before it was too late.
The lesson from that is, once the reshoim gain power, that is the time to fear the future.
Like I said, this hasnt happened yet but to my shikul hadaas the current trajectory is not good and needs to change but the danger zone is still somewhat of a ways off if it doesn’t. Radical political change in a country like america will b’pashtus not come over night and will be easily recognizable before it does.
B’kitzur, definitely not a time to panic, but more vigilance than in the past is indeed warranted bc if indeed the tlaaaaabs of the world take over america will become a different place altogether.February 9, 2022 12:49 pm at 12:49 pm #2059000
Smerel it’s true that if you aren’t exposed to every incident you won’t think of it as much. However the times got a little worse since when did you have literally thousands at pro Palestinian rallies, all who hate Jews not just Israel. And when did you have people burning shuls and yeshivas. The attacks have gotten more brazen and more frequent in my opinion. Also the fact that covid happened and was scapegoated on Jews whether being the ones who created it or the ones who spread it around to people, and having the NYC mayor and governor labeling all Jewish neighborhoods as red danger zones is a little disturbing of how fast things can escalate.February 9, 2022 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #2058962
If it is infinitely better, than it is perfect. There is nothing better than infinitely better.
Infinite means that whatever number I give you, you can give me a number higher as a means of measurement for its value.February 9, 2022 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #2059018LostsparkParticipant
“Move to eretz yisreal”
Every time I hear or read this I can feel the persons regret doing so, and the need for someone else to confirm that living there is something to strive towards.
Until Moshiach, I’m good.February 9, 2022 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #2059026charliehallParticipant
“A Swastika was found where I’m from and local and state police and FBI all investigated. ”
A few years ago someone reported swastikas in front of my house to NYPD. I was in shul, davening Shacharit. I got a text message to come home ASAP, and by the time I made it home, the entire block was crawling with NYPD officers trying to find any evidence regarding who was responsible. The swastikas were gone within a few officers — NYPD has an entire unit dedicated to eradicating hateful grafitti.February 9, 2022 9:45 pm at 9:45 pm #2059101☕️coffee addictParticipant
I feel the same way with a lot of places not just eretz yisraelFebruary 10, 2022 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #2059336HaravPhilDaBoiParticipant
you are all deluding yourself
previously on the jewish history channel all attacks on the jewish population on whole was when a single figure held all the power and all the people agreed with that figure
Nazis are obvious. so is the Spanish inquisition those are where the people of the country rely heavily on the government for guidance and you have a clear majority that agreed with you.
but america is different (hopefully). we have a democratic republic where free business is promoted
you simply dont have a singular religion to which most people sympathize to
more so the country is divided clean in half in terms of political views
you also dont have it to where a single person can take power
maybe this time it will be different?
all you can do is hope, buy a passport and a gun, and be readyFebruary 10, 2022 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #2059353
Haravphil, what’s a gun going to help you. The only thing to do in such a danger is escape.February 10, 2022 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #2059357
Jews of pre war Germany: “there will never be a persecution drom Germany… we’re safer here than anywhere else in the world! Anti semitism is illegal here! They’re on our side!
Jews of America in 2022: a Holocaust could never happen here! There’s so much diversity! The government is on our side!February 10, 2022 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #2059365Amil ZolaParticipant
So where are you planning to go rightwriter. Do you you have a plan with a destination?February 10, 2022 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #2059392
Australia? Canada?February 10, 2022 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #2059415
Ujm Australia and Canada aren’t known for their love of Jews.
Amilzola, I haven’t planned yet and hoping it won’t ever come to that but obviously the only safe place for Jews to go is likely Israel. Yes the government is bad and it’s surrounded by Arabs but it’s the only place on earth where the land is rightfully welcoming to Yidden.
Avirahdeara, good observation, if you ever read Elie Wiesel’s personal account in the book Night, as he entered Aushwitz he told his dad, surely the crematoriums can’t be real right, they can’t be burning people in the 20th century how would the world let this happen! And his father replied, the world has no care for us Jews, anything is possible even in these modern times.
It was so unimaginable to the mind that even seeing it with their own eyes was barely comprehensible. Wiesel also narrated how when they rounded up the Jews of Hungary and lined them up it was surreal and felt he was seeing something out of the churban Beis Hamikdash and not reality.
So it’s not as if “back then” a Holocaust was expected and unsurprisng. 70 years ago which is not that long ago, the times were very modern, there were big yehivas and shuls, congregations, doctors and businesses. And most never could have imagined such a thing would take place.
Actually the most frightening part of Wiesel’s account was when he mentioned a specific person who would collect tzedaka and was well known in the community, was suddenly rounded up along with all other Jewish “foreigners” and was taken to an area where they all had to dig their graves and shot one by one. He managed to survive and went back to the town to warn all the Yidden. They refused to believe him. He said I don’t want money or anything I just fought my way to get back here only to warn everyone. But they ignored him and called him crazy. Until the day where the whole community was rounded up and transported, and he ran to the houses and yelled “I tried to warn you”!
Lehavdil elef havdalos and that nothing even remotely similar should ever take place anywhere in the world, but always keep on mind our history and look at the patterns. The Jews always lived in big Empires of the world and those countries always turned on them eventually, despite how difficult it would be to believe that something could happen.February 11, 2022 1:41 am at 1:41 am #2059430
Avira > there will never be a persecution drom Germany…
Indeed, when Fritz Haber was visiting Atlantic city in ~ 1910, he was shocked to see the sign “no Jews allowed”, even as his hosts explained that this is just for East European Jews, not for German professors like you. He replied that he never saw anything like that in Germany.February 11, 2022 5:47 am at 5:47 am #2059451
“Ujm Australia and Canada aren’t known for their love of Jews.”
RW: And which countries, exactly, love Jews more than Australia or Canada?February 11, 2022 8:49 am at 8:49 am #2059477
You will know when it is the time to leave when you hear the blast of the shofer, then then we are sadly in golus and we need to endure it.February 12, 2022 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #2059605Zaphod BeeblebroxParticipant
Not even sure where to begin here. Like many other people, I too experienced an anti Semitic attack, nothing too serious, just some crazy people yelling at me a couple of times in stores. Guess what? I dealt with it. I had absolutely no problem getting in these peoples faces and standing up for myself, and I felt safe while doing so. And In every case, management and spectators had my back. You can wax poetic about Israel all you want but the facts are that when there, I feel a lot less safe simply walking down the street, or going on the train, because there I actually have to worry about getting stabbed or pepper sprayed, or getting a rock thrown at me or what have you. And I know for a fact that while many of you would strongly stand up for yourselves in America, in Israel you’d be scared to witless to do anything but run. Anyone who disagrees must be either extraordinarily brave or dumb. So much for the let’s move to Israel it’s safer argument.
As for the omg we’re all gonna be wiped out if we stay here sentiment, sorry to burst your bubble but the average citizen isn’t as dumb or hateful as you might think. You just don’t see them on the news, because a bunch of people jumping up and down yelling slurs at Jews makes for much better footage. Most of the none Jews I’ve met have seemed genuinely interested in Jews and our culture, because they’re intelligent to know that that the idiotic diatribe they see on cnn can’t possibly be even a fraction of the bigger picture. This isn’t just middle aged business men btw. These are the college kids everyones convinced are getting brainwashed, and the young professionals who are actually employed taxpayers who’s say actually means something. So yeah, we aren’t in danger of extinction here, and I’m not just saying that cuz my head is in the sand.
On a more humorous note, none of the feared pogroms and whatnot could ever happen without the backing of a person very high on the power totem pole. Assuming a person like that does come into power, here’s how the scenario plays out. If it’s a democrat and all of Hollywood is clamoring for blood, every redneck with a gun would be out in force, if not to protect us, then simply to oppose them. And if a republican is the one yelling, every millennial democrat with a chip on their shoulder will attack them with everything they’ve got, if only so they can livestream it and prove to all of tik-tagram that they love all people and are fighting injustice to whatever burnt out slogan helps them sleep at night. In short, take a chill.February 12, 2022 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #2059716
@Zaphod,”As for the omg we’re all gonna be wiped out if we stay here sentiment, sorry to burst your bubble but the average citizen isn’t as dumb or hateful as you might think.”
Sorry to burst your bubble but I think the average citizen already proved you wrong (the whole COVID era) by taking pictures of people, especially Jews not wearing a mask and posting it everywhere just because the government told them to. And if they dont start off hateful since they are just following orders, they later do become hateful. And that was without even being offered a reward they were just being “good helpful citizens”.
I personally had some dope take a picture of me and other Jews inside a fast food place and it was before the mandates, it was up to the store policy and that store didnt have a mask policy. Im sure you’ve seen the countless other photos of “maskless” Jews all over even if those situations didnt require mask wearing.
We arent saying pack your bags, but its a fact that anything can happen, and fast.February 12, 2022 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #2059713
If you encountered the gemutliche Germans before the war, you would have said that they love Jews too. It never changes – chazal call antisemitism a halacha. Not a societal anomaly, not something that comes and goes or is only in a minority of people. Not something a kumbaya or courses on the Holocaust, or guilt trips (literally, trips to Europe) can fix.
Halacha yaduah she’eisav soneh ea yaakov. It’s as immutable as any other halacha. They hate you. They probably don’t even know it themselves, but if there’s a gezerah, they will almost certainly sell you out. They will protect themselves with your life if not participate in the shooting squads themselves.
Halacha yaduah – it’s known, painfull6, tearfully known. You should learn it too.February 12, 2022 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #2059727
P.S. The State of Israel is as much in Golus as is Iran, Russia, America, Venezuela, France and Germany.
P.P.S. More Jews are killed for being Jewish in the Israeli Golus than in the Iranian Golus, German Golus or American Golus.February 12, 2022 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #2059730
ujm, more than German Golus? Maybe if you are including the Churban and all the years before and after. Second of all noone is saying life is perfect in Israel, in fact its far from that due to government and other. But dont you agree that Israel “the land” is the only land where a Jew can rightfully say that land belongs to them? I just feel that no matter what anti semitism in a land of goyim is scarier than in a land that is part of you. In other lands its called anti semitism, in Israel its called war.February 12, 2022 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #2059734
RW: I’m referring to the time since the establishment of the State of Israel.
My point is that the State of Israel is in a state of Golus.February 12, 2022 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #2059738
Rw, the land is only ours when Hashem gave it to us bzchus the avos. We forfeited the rights to it when we sinned and we will regain them once again with the geulah shlaima bemhayroh, not the egel hazahav of zionism.February 12, 2022 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #2059737
Israel is still golus we know that. But you are saying more Jews died in Israel since 1948 than in the Holocaust?February 13, 2022 2:47 am at 2:47 am #2059745
Rw, he was saying that post Holocaust, more Jews died because of their Judaism I’m Israel than anywhere else, even in America where there were/are way more Jewish people in the populationFebruary 13, 2022 2:47 am at 2:47 am #2059752
Avira where do you get this information? The land itself always belongs to the Jewish people it cannot be forfeited since it’s promised to be ours.February 13, 2022 2:47 am at 2:47 am #2059754HaKatanParticipant
There are a number of very big differences between the two.
Eisav sonei liYaakov is axiomatic, but its practical application depends on, essentially, the degree of separation between Klal Yisrael and the umos. That’s what the Beis HaLeivi wrote on “hamavdil bein kodesh liChol, bein or liChosech, bein Yisrael laAmim…”.
As Rav Miller Zatza”l wrote, before the war, you had whole towns that were frum that became haskala towns. Numerous -isms, including, of course, Zionism, ensnared numerous Jews in their heretical nets. The Satmar Rav wrote how gedolim in the years before WW II said it would be a miracle if something did NOT happen to the Jews there.
Since WW II, however, almost everywhere, there has been an enormous tidal wave of recovery from the war and return to Torah. In the US, for example, the Torah landscape is massive relative to the little that existed before and immediately after WW II.
The only exception is, of course, the Zionist State of Israel, which shmaded and continues to shmad at least three generations now, though some of whom (but certainly not all) have come back to the Torah and, despite the Zionists’ many evils, there are many yeshivos there.
So, if your concern is safety in galus, you probably do not want to be under the Zionists which Rav Elchonon Wasserman called the worst galus of all, the galus of the Yevsektzia. Particularly when looking at a pig-eater like Yvet Lieberman, this becomes all the more apparent, though that applies similarly under the prior atheist Zionist Prime Minister Milikowsky (AKA “Netanyahu”) and all the others that preceded the pseudo-kippah wearing current Zionist PM.
Any claim that Israel is a “safe haven” for Jews is not only delusional but also simple Zionist idolatry. The Zionist mess, on every level, including both spiritual and physical, in the portions of E”Y that they have invaded, are nothing to envy.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.