Is it time to leave America
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- This topic has 92 replies, 25 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 3 months ago by HaKatan.
February 13, 2022 2:47 am at 2:47 am #2059756
RW > I personally had some dope take a picture of me
R Heinemann warned early about trying to go against public policies, even in perception. He was asked whether it is OK to have a minyan consisting of several families, each in his own yard which would technically compile with the lockdown rules. The question seemed to be out of concern whether this is considered a minyan, as for him it was clearly complying with the letter of the covid law, but the answer was – someone passing by will not see the difference, and as a result of your action someone, somewhere, will get denied a ventilator during a shortage.
You are free to disagree with this psak, of course, but could you please provide your halakhic sources for behaving as you want and blaming the world for possible outcomes.February 13, 2022 8:43 am at 8:43 am #2059831
The “in Germany they also thought it can’t happen here” are making a false analogy. There is a big difference between a situation where a party like the Nazis is ALREADY in power and a situation where they aren’t. A guy living in Germany in the 1920s indeed had no reason to flee and was a lot safer than Jews in most of the rest of the world were at the time. Someone saying we have to leave Germany in the 1920s was making a foolish comment unless he was a novi. While it is possible that the situation in the US could rapidly change just like it did in Germany that possibility exists in other countries as well so there is no reason to go running to them.
Another factor to consider is that the US has far more things decided on a local level than most other countries. It is possible that some of the more liberal states will become unlivable for Orthodox Jews but not the US a wholeFebruary 13, 2022 10:46 am at 10:46 am #2059847
Smerel, that’s not a refutation on the analogy, because the point is that it has happen anywhere – the fact that the situation changed rapidly is exactly the point! It can happen without warning if it’s a gezerah, and we’re not supposed to feel comfortable and secure, saying to ourselves that we are safe in America(or any other country)February 13, 2022 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #2059906
Smerel “While it is possible that the situation in the US could rapidly change just like it did in Germany that possibility exists in other countries as well so there is no reason to go running to them.”
-although the US is the empire of the world currently and has the most Jews. I don’t think anyone is worried about Zimbabwe’s approach to Jews.
“Another factor to consider is that the US has far more things decided on a local level than most other countries. It is possible that some of the more liberal states will become unlivable for Orthodox Jews but not the US a whole”
-what makes you think states such as Mississippi and Kentucky are more welcoming to Jews let alone frum Jews?February 13, 2022 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #2059905
“You are free to disagree with this psak, of course, but could you please provide your halakhic sources for behaving as you want and blaming the world for possible outcomes.”
Avirah my halachic source is that there was no mandate yet it was up to store policy and personal preference. Also as i’ve mentioned they were hunting for pictures of Jews without mask no matter the circumstance even walking outside alone 30 feet away from anyone. Yes everyone could have worn a mask everywhere even inside the house just to make sure they don’t get photographed without one, but that isn’t the point. The point is that Jews got unfairly singled out and it shows you how “normal” citizens can easily get manipulated to help round up Jews.
And even if many frum Jews weren’t wearing masks, there were also many non Jews I’ve seen not wearing but nobody cares about that. Just as all Jewish areas became red zones regardless of how other areas had higher rates.February 13, 2022 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #2059916
HaKatan, you are using a hyperbole when comparing our current situation to galus evsektsia, or you do not know wekk what R Wasserman and others faced. Chofetz Chaim was later lamenting that he ran away from Soviet Russia – he realized that all Rabbis who left for Poland and Lita saved themselves but abandoned the rest of the Jews: remnants of whom came recently as “soviet Jews” that includes Lieberman. Whatever the damage the latter is causing to the observant community in Israel – he moved to Israel; he cares about it; his son is observant. He is more successful, Jewish-wise, to 90% of other Jews who disappeared in Russia physically and spiritually. And he may even help Yidden in ISrael to learn how to earn parnosah and become independent of Zionist government. Gam zu l’tova.February 13, 2022 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #2059917
I think your comparison of status of Jews in EY and US suffers from observational bias: in Israel, you see non-observant Jews as a group, and they are interacting with the observant on daily basis and react to a friction of shabbat/kashrus in their daily life. In US, you see them only in the news and most are quietly disappearing without coming to bother you. It does not mean that they are in a better shape. I think it is opposite – non-religious Israelis are always one step away from stumbling into a shul, or into an observant colleague and learning something, without a danger of immediate intermarriage.
R Schach cared about those Israelis and thought that Hashem cared: he writes that Arab anti-Semitism was min hashomayim, Without it, early Zionists would have gone to U of Cairo and Beyrut and intermarried.February 13, 2022 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #2059962TS BaumParticipant
I heard a story – I’m not sure if it is absolutely true – but it goes like this:
There was once a hidden tzaddik who came to a town and started telling them that the current year, in elul, (he named a specific date), the germans will attack their city and that they should leave before they have a chance to. But they chased him and threw stones at him and called him a “navi sheker” and cursed him out. One carpenter had pity on him and he listened to him – and he ended up being saved, because on that exact date that the tzadik said, the germans attacked his city and everyone else was either killed or sent to a conecentration camp.
We can think that we are totally safe, but who knows? We must be aware, and if there are rumors something might happen, don’t go crazy about it, but keep it in mind.
I agree with most people on here, even if they themselves are arguing, because, I agree that we must trust in Hashem and that everything is gam zu letova and hashgachah pratis.
But at the same time, we must be wary and careful of any red flag. We have hishtadlus, we can’t totally rely on Hashem for everything, because Hashem doesn’t want us to be too lazy, (among other reasons).February 13, 2022 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #2059967emes nisht shekerParticipant
Interesting… I thought with Trump the fix to all the problems was there… One year after he is out of office and the same fools championing Trump are nervous about living in America. Those of us who warned about the destabilization Trump would bring were shouted down and cursed at. Guess maybe time to look in the mirror and realize it was just 4 years of bullying and you really did not have the answers. Maybe DeSantis can save you all.February 13, 2022 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #2060008
Emes, Trump was elected as an opposition to the elite opinion. Different people meant different things, of course. Current administration is either continuing same policies without acknowledging: vaccines, china boycott; or doing something unfortunate and then acknowledging continuity; Afghanistan; or trying to publicly reversing those policies: oil, Russia leading to more disasters, or trying to spend as much as they can fighting future disasters ignoring current ones. Are you one of 30% of people who enjoy it?February 13, 2022 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #2060011
@emes, what destabilization did Trump bring, do you mean Biden?February 15, 2022 10:15 am at 10:15 am #2060483
No, my perception does not suffer from any such bias. Nor is it hyperbole.
(Regarding Rav Elchonon, you can take out a kovetz maamrim and see for yourself.)
Let’s repeat. For close to a century, from even before the terrible date on which the Zionists founded their shmad State in 1948, the Zionists have ACTIVELY shmaded their “fellow” Jews, intentionally stripping their religion away from them. We now see three generations of Jews that are anywhere between either avowedly anti-religious or, at best, somewhat religious and believing in the idolatry of Zionism, all due only to Zionist shmad.
Nothing like that has happened in the USA. In fact, the opposite has occurred. Moreover, there are numerous kiruv and other places throughout the USA, including on colleges, and in communities. So there are plenty of opportunities for unaffiliated Jews to learn about their heritage. Finally, the USA is a religious country (though the left is certainly trying awfully hard to change that) that both believes in G-d and respects religion, including in their army (very unlike the Zionists). The Zionist entity hates G-d and abhors religion, though they do tolerate Judaism to whatever extent is necessary to “control” it and perpetuate their Big Lie of being the “Jewish” State.February 16, 2022 8:10 am at 8:10 am #2060891
HaKatan, there are many ways to skin this cat, here is a statistical one:
12% of American Jews go to (any kind of) synagogue weekly
25% of Israeli Jews do (32% of those who call themselves “traditional”)
27% of Americans go to religious services weekly.
21% of American Jews say religion is very important
30% of Israeli Jews do, 32% of traditionals do.
you could argue, of course, that given a more religious, and more Jewish, environment in Israel the difference should be larger.
US also had it’s share of Jewish socialists in 1930s and even later who were fighting religion. They simply assimilated and now fight climate change instead of other Jews.
All kiruv work is great, but the number of non-O Jews percentage wise affected by it is very small, and, I think, getting smaller.February 16, 2022 9:44 am at 9:44 am #2060967
Why do you continue to spout hatred of your fellow Jews? Are you filled with guilt for not making aliya? Rabbi Abahu says that the ra’ah is called that because he stands in Babylon (a paradigm for chutz laAretz) and sees a carcass in Eretz Yisrael. The Kotzker says that nothing is more tamei.
The fact of the matter is that more people are learning Torah in Israel than in all of pre-Holocaust Europe. The state supports yeshivot and seminaries, unlike in the USA where there is a wall of separation. Moreover, polls consistently show that Israel is becoming more religious whereas America is becoming less so. Outside of the South and Midwest religion is marginal.February 16, 2022 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #2061085
You’re not addressing my points but ignoring them.
CH”V. Classic Zionist go-to line. The ones who truly hate Jews are the Zionists who make gezeiros against the Torah Jews in the parts of E”Y that the Zionists have invaded, known as the Zionist “State of Israel”.
That “fact” is irrelevant, as mentioned above. The Zionists shmaded and continue to shmad three generations of Jews, as mentioned above. They support Torah to the extent necessary to “control” it, as they have said for decades.
Your idol of Zionism and its State have been called exactly that, an idol, by all gedolim. May Hashem show you the truth of His Torah and save you from this idol.February 16, 2022 1:30 pm at 1:30 pm #2061092Reb EliezerParticipant
The Satmar Rav ztz’l says that if on kisses the Sefer Torah and does not believe in Hashem, makes it an a’z. Similarly, when it comes to the yearning for Israel.February 17, 2022 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #2061536
>>>In fact, the opposite has occurred. Moreover, there are numerous kiruv and other places throughout the USA, including on colleges, and in communities
I’m curious do you any involvement with Kiruv? Do you know that even American Kiruv organizations focus on Israeli Yordim because the typical American college student has so little Jewish identity that s/he wouldn’t go anywhere near a Kiruv center?
I’m no Zionist but I see more and more the truth of what Rav Yaakov Kemintsky said that Hashem wanted the state of Israel because otherwise most of the Jews living there would be assimilated.
Do you know that most of the anti religious activity in Israel today is done through the pressure and funding of secular American Jews not native Israelis
If you want to be such a kanoi go fight with Footsteps and the Reform movement. Not people and ideals who are long dead. As an aside it amazes me how all the big anti-Zionist kanoim in the US would never dream of fighting with the Reform movement or ANY other anti-Torah movement as long as it’s members aren’t ZionistsFebruary 17, 2022 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #2061569
No, American Kiruv organizations do not “focus on Israeli yordim” to the exclusion of American College students as you falsely imply.
Rav Yaakov actually retracted that very statement after learning the Satmar Rav’s sefarim on Zionism, and told that to the Satmar Rav.
If not for the Zionists, Mashiach would have come in 1948, as both the Brisker Rav and Satmar Rav said. That’s first of all.
Besides for that, let’s repeat once again: the Zionist have shmaded at least three generations of Jews, especially the ones under their control in their Zionist State of Israel. That perspective is obvious nowadays, of course, to anyone not blinded by that Zionist idol.
Let’s be even more clear. The very purpose of Zionism and its State was, is and always will be Zionism, which is to redefine Judaism and its people from Torah-based to idolatrous Nation-State/Land/Zionist/Israel-based.
So, no, the Zionist “ideal”, and practice of the same (meaning shmad) is, unfortunately, very, very much alive, and is, by far, the greatest source of shmad worldwide, far, far greater than the dying “Reform” and whatever damage “Footsteps” has done.February 18, 2022 2:59 am at 2:59 am #2061700
Mashiach ben Yosef did come in 5708. The Zohar says that easch 1,000 years of creation is lagainst one of the first six. That means that 5708 is the sof zeman bittul chametz. There is no greater chametz than the galut.
BTW, Rav Soloveichik said that if not for the creation of the State of Israel Jews would have assimilated completely. Missionaries were using the Holocaust as proof that they were right. RS himself was accosted a number of times during his trips between Boston and New York. The creation of the State destroyed their whole sheeta. This is besides the great mitzvot of establishing a sovereign state in Eretz Yisrael (which was heralded by almost all of the gedolim in Eretz Yisrael, including the Agudaistim), building the Land and being mosser nefesh to save Jews.February 18, 2022 9:17 am at 9:17 am #2061711
>>>So, no, the Zionist “ideal”, and practice of the same (meaning shmad) is, unfortunately, very, very much alive, and is, by far, the greatest source of shmad worldwide, far, far greater than the dying “Reform” and whatever damage “Footsteps” has done.
This comment epitomizes why I look at the more anti Zionist crowd as being badly brainwashed and purely political as opposed to having actually caring about shmad. You can’t reason with such people
Reform, a movement that openly fights against Torah and even has some “rabbis” who openly preach not believing in God? Nu, nu not so bad. Footsteps who I personally who they led off the Derech? Also Nu, nu not so bad.
The main thing is not to be a “Zionist” Whatever “Zionists” are.
I leave you with one thought. There are plenty of Satmar alumni hanging out in Footsteps fighting Torah with them. How many are being led astray by the “Zionists”?February 18, 2022 11:31 am at 11:31 am #2061718
HaKatan notices that Reform is dying and Zionism is not to justify bigger evil of Zionism. Maybe it means that Reform was wrong (more)? They led their communities to full assimilation. I would add that original Zionism is also not around. You describe it how it looks in 1930s, maybe you read some seforim from 100 years ago and did not go out much.February 18, 2022 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #2061771
I’m sorry that the three generations of Jews in Israel that the Zionists shmaded are of no consequence to you. It’s unfortunate that the spread of the heresy of Zionism worldwide is of no relevance to you.
Zionism openly fights G-d far more than does Reform, and has far, far greater influence (including in this very forum) than does Reform. It’s not “nu, nu, not so bad”. Of course Reform is bad. But Zionism, from then until now, is orders of magnitude worse.
It’s too bad that you are preventing yourself from objectively evaluation that the Zionists have and continue to do far greater damage to Klal Yisrael than anything. Reform and Footsteps are a relative drop in that ocean in comparison.February 18, 2022 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #2061784
I don’t think Reform is going away. Maybe to the frum we think most are Orthodox. It’s a fact that the religious Jews are a minority amongst the Jews. In Israel and across the world.February 18, 2022 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #2061774
The original Zionism is very much alive today.
The entire purpose of Zionism is to replace both the Jewish people and the Jewish religion with a godless nationalist/Zionist gentile new Jew.
The Zionists have shmaded now three generations of “Israelis” and are attempting to further shmad the remainder of non-Zionist Jews under their control.
Maybe you are the one who needs to get out a little more and simply observe what goes in in Israel and around the world?February 19, 2022 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #2061884
HaKatan, you seem to repeat the same phrase about 3 generations without adding any proofs or arguments. This is not an interesting conversation.February 19, 2022 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #2061913
Perhaps it’s not interesting to you because you don’t believe obvious facts and plain history?
Zionism is all about replacing G-d and His Torah as the basis of Jews and Judaism with, instead, idolatrous godless Nationalism. This is not in dispute. This is, of course, therefore, the basis of their “education” in schools and indoctrination in their shmad army. In their army, they define what is Judaism, not what is an Israeli “national”. That is shmad.
The Zionists have been shmading Jews in Israel since before 1948.
That’s at least approx. 3/4 of a century. That’s easily three generations.
You don’t want proofs; you want to believe in your idol. We just read this morning: “eile elohecha…”February 19, 2022 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #2061943
AAQ – the examples have been discussed on this site quite extensively, but in no particular order:
Telling teimanim that moshiach came and they don’t have to do mitzvos
Army designed for indoctrination and znus
Language designed to corrupt lashon kodesh
Absence of Hashem from declaration of independence, and national anthem
Spreading of lies blaming the gedolei yisroel for the Holocaust
Banning boys from laying tefilin in public schools (in private rooms!)
Absorption of hundreds of thousands of non-jewish immigrants claiming to be Jewish
Telling the world that they are the representatives of the Jewish people
National laws that are against halacha; monetary, civil, religious freedom for avodah zara
Institutional acceptance of the alphabet soup people
Giving perspective Olim free housing…only in nok charedi areas
Trying to control the charedi and dati religious education system
The attempt at making a fake sanhedrin with an am haaretz at its head to do their bidding
Caricature of charedi Jews in Nazi fashion in the media
Need some more?February 20, 2022 2:19 am at 2:19 am #2061964
Avira, I was specifically talking about times closer to ours. Many of the ones you listed are way earlier. Some of the later ones sound more like financial claims – free housing to olim in wrong areas .. control educational system, and political disagreements. Claims that Israeli system is not always according to halakha does not support claims of “shmad”.February 20, 2022 8:28 am at 8:28 am #2061984
1. The yaldei Tehran and Teimanim claims have been debunked by various inquiries, inclyuding one by Menachem Begin’s government , which had an interest to discredit Labor.
2. The IDF is designed to defend Am Yisrael.
3. The Declaration of independence mentions צור ישראל. Do you not believe that this is Hashem?
4. it is a known fact that gedolei Yisrael told Jews not to leave Europe.
5. Where did you get that bit about tefillin?
6. The State definitely is the representative of the Jewish people. If you don;t believe our enemies will tell you otherwise.
7. Dina d’malcuta dina. The state must give religious freedom because then Jews in other countries will not be given religious freedom. This is the state of the world today. ידנו לא תקיפה .
8. Control? Wanting kids to be taught skills so that they can be productive citizens and get off welfare?
9. Who claims that the Bagatz is the Sanhedrin?
10. What caricatures? Anyway, the solution to that and your other claims is for frum Jews to make aliya, accept citizenship 9which many hareidim refuse to do while enjoying all the benefits as “students”) and vote.February 20, 2022 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #2062124
Denying reality, which is the vast majority of your post at 8:28 AM, isn’t very practical.
I will note though that the Chazon Ish noted that there are two types of apikorsim today: those who celebrate Yom haAtzamos and those who blame the gedolim for the deaths of Jews in Europe.
Looks like you’re 2 for 2.
Of course, the Zionists totally omit their anti-Jewish activities before and during WW II, like the Zionists lobbying governments AGAINST accepting Jewish refugees from the Holocaust, which lead to the deaths of untold numbers of Jews in the Holocaust.
In addition, the Nazis were poised to invade Palestine and it was only Hashem’s chessed that stopped them from doing so. The Brisker Rav left Europe for Palestine, during the war, despite the physical danger of going to Palestine, only because of chinuch. He felt that it was better to risk the physical danger in Palestine.
editedFebruary 20, 2022 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #2062128
Avi, this is just buying straight into the attempts I mentioned hook line and sinker – you literally believe whatever the zionists tell you, without any independent inquiry and thought process. Citations of proofs to all of my claims(army construction, etc) can be found in “the empty wagon”. If you believe (in error) that you’re allowed to read apikorsus books as long as you’re “strong”, then you shouldn’t have any trouble reading an uncomfortable anti zionist book, as even you have to admit that denial of Hashem is worse than denial of Zionism (I hope).
They represent judaism the way McDonalds represents fine dining. I am a Jew, and there are hundreds of thousands of other jews who the state does not represent. Believing it to be avodah zara, I would literally let myself be killed rather than admit to it. Rav boruch ber said that zionism is yehereg velo yaavor. (See harav hadomeh lemalaach)
Teimanin kidnapping have been debunked? Really? Tell that to my friend’s grandfather who was KIDNAPPED and grew up in a secular ashkenaz house until his “parents” confessed to him that they were hired by the government. He became a baal teshuva and is close to rav amnon Yitzchok, who has a similar story.
Denial of their suffering and literal shmad is the same as Holocaust denial; actually, it’s worse, because we don’t face any threat from Germany anymore, but we do face a constant threat from the zionist regime that we are forced to live under.
Rav chaim brisker said it best – “the velt thinks that the zionists want a state, and that in order to have a state, you need to be frei, but really it’s the opposite…they want a state in order to be frei!
AAQ, the army is just as much a shmad tool now as it was then. They still encourage znus, have indoctrination classes on zionism, and promote a militarism foreign to our people.February 20, 2022 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #2062160MarxistParticipant
There is a difference between stating that some Gedolei Yisrael told Jews to stay in Europe and laying the blame for the death of Yidden at their feet.February 20, 2022 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #2062161
I think you guys have a legit an interesting debate, but it is outdated. I am claiming that current Israel is not permeated by original Zionism. The anti-religious left is now more into global liberal ideas; traditional, mostly Sephardi, Jews were not affected by it to begin with. What you have is – a state consisting of multiple Jewish groups, many of who are not observant or partially observant. It is the same as in other countries, except that all of them share the bus. In other countries, you simply do not meet these people and do not depend on them. Maybe, Israel gives you an opportunity to show these Jews – who mostly were not religious before they came to Israel – the beauty of Torah. Instead, you are hating them. Look at Yonah and Kikayon. Do you have no chesed to this small country populated by Jewish people?February 20, 2022 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #2062177YalkutYosefParticipant
It’s so sad to see people so many frum people who don’t even think about moving to Eretz Yisrael. Even if America is safe and treats us well, how can someone have Yirat Shamayim and not want to be in our land? This has nothing to do with Zionism, Eretz Yisrael is a the foundation of yidishkeit. Just look in the Torah almost every Parsha speaks about the praises of E”Y. Not to mention the countless times in Chazal. See for instance ketubot 110- 111 It’s better to live in EY even in a city of goyim than in Chu”l even in a Jewish city, whoever lives in chu”l is like living without a G-d, like he’s serving acids Zara etc.February 21, 2022 8:35 am at 8:35 am #2062319
Yalkut – yep, ravina, rav ashi, rabba, rava, rav yosef, rav kahanah, they ALL were “compared to one who has no god” – they could have moved, they didn’t. It’s preposterous and itself a form of avodah zara; that the land has intrinsic qualities aside from its given, stated purpose. Those gemaros have meforshim; you should learn them instead of just quoting random aramaic words that you’re copying from zionist rabbis’ literature.
Ever learn vayoel moshe? He shreds beyond measure any argument from those gemaros; utterly gutted – you should check it out sometime if you live in an area where they wouldn’t put you in cherem for being seen reading it.February 21, 2022 11:44 am at 11:44 am #2062453
Avira, there were early amoraim interested in moving to E’Y and Israeli ones that considered leaving E’Y an aveira. This does not happen later on – probably a combination of hardships in E’Y and Bavel becoming true center of learning. Would help if you bring the quotes that you referring to so that we see both sides of the issue.
Let’s consider a “what if” history – Zionists do not move to E’Y and current E’Y looks like Jordan and Iraq at best or Syria and Iran at worst. There are several Jewish communities existing peacefully in general, with no mmodern avoda zora, under duress, and occasional mass murder. Would you move there?February 21, 2022 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #2062715
No, it is not outdated but current. The Zionists in the Zionist State still target Chareidim and the Torah, and are still essentially the same Zionists as their predecessors (less “labor” more “militancy”, but that’s not relevant). Zionism is all about changing the Jew and his religion from Torah-based to godless and idolatrous Nation-State based.
This is evil, heretical and offensive to every believing Jew, except for those who worship that idol of Zionism. It is not history; it is current, even more so, in some cases, with the current band of thug Zionists in power in the Zionist State.
No, to be clear, nobody hates the Jews in Israel who the Zionists shmaded and who don’t know any better thanks to that Zionist shmad. But that Zionist shmad should certainly be recognized for the horror, multi-generation, that it is, rather than being ignored in favor of idol worship of Zionism.February 22, 2022 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #2063092
Hakatan, you are not listing facts, just expressing your feelings. How can we discuss? Just going by need, I see people complaining about financial and work related battles. Is Lieberman Zionist? I don’t think so, he may not like charedim, although his son is, he may not appreciate Torah in general, but his issues are not Zionism. Unless you are calling everyone who disagrees with you politically ZionistFebruary 22, 2022 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #2063102MarxistParticipant
I think it’s also important to point out that even at the beginning of Zionism there were differences amongst the leaders as to what the movement entailed. Achad Ha’am is different from Herzl, for example. And Ben-Gurion was different than Begin in later times. It’s not always best to group them all under the label “Zionists” without explaining what exactly is meant.February 22, 2022 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #2063131
Marx, there are different shades of it, but all (including “religious” ones) believe that judaism is a nation not determined solely by our relationship to Torah. They believe in other things, which is why rav elchonon vasserman said that “zionism is avodah zara, and religious zionism is avodah zara mixed with religion”February 23, 2022 2:33 am at 2:33 am #2063138
The facts have all been listed, and they are not feelings but facts.
Liberman is not a Zionist? The very name of his party which he heads is pretty indicative that he is.
Those differences do not make for a practical difference. It’s been explained many times, but certain people seem unwilling to believe it.
The shmad that underlies all of those idolators is that the Jewish people and faith would need to be changed to an idolatrous Nationalist/land-based godless people and faith.February 23, 2022 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #2063505
HaKatan, I understood Lieberman’s party name referring to his party leading Russian olim towards being – and being accepted – as part of Israeli society, rather than “Rusim”.
I looked up 10 principles that his party was formed for. True he refers to Jabotinsky’s ideas, but if you count from the top – most of it is about being “strong on defense”. Maybe we need to define what you see as “Zionism”. Are you accusing him of too much hishtadlus instead of “relying on Hashem” to protect Jews? I would say this is a legitimate haskafa disagreement.
Security policy based on initiative and preemptive action.
Solution of the conflict through a comprehensive regional agreement and the exchange of territories and populations.
Without loyalty there is no citizenship – Military or National Service for everyone who reaches the age of 18.
Death penalty for terrorists.
Adopting the Shamgar Report (which restricts the things the Israeli government can offer as part of a prisoner exchange) as the sole basis for all future prisoner exchange.
In the case of a dilemma between the unity of the land and the unity of the people, the unity of the people comes first.
Yes to Judaism – no to religious coercion.
Support for Jewish settlement as part of the Zionist ideal and concept of security.
Immigration of Diaspora Jews as a central national goal.
A socio-economic ideal in line with Ze’ev Jabotinsky’s five basic needs that should be guaranteed by the government: Food, Housing, Clothing, Education and Healthcare.February 25, 2022 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #2064194
His party platform is only part of the issue. You didn’t consider that every Zionist (and party) has signed on to the Zionist “Jerusalem Program”, which is heretical and idolatrous Zionism.
The “definition” of Zionism is not an issue. Also, anything that removes Hashem from the equation is, of course, beyond the pale and not a “hashkafa” dispute. But that’s almost besides the point.
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