Is It Tzniyus For Boys To Wear Shorts

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  • #592082

    solomonZ
    Member

    no its chukas hagoyim

    #885170

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    no its chukas hagoyim

    I don’t get your question. Are you asking it based on a tznius angle or on a chukas hagoyim angle?

    In any event, I know that pointing this out will only brand me as a heretical unbeliever, but non-Jews also wear shirts with sleeves. And hats. And socks. And ties. Perhaps we should dispense with those as well?

    Nonetheless, if you think they aren’t tznius or are in violation of chukas hagoy (however you came to that conclusion) then, by all means, don’t wear them.

    The Wolf

    #885171

    blinky
    Participant

    depends when- i.e excersize…

    #885172

    postsemgirl
    Member

    Pants are also chuakas hagoyim and so is socks and shoes and jackets and hats. o come on give me a break! How is shorts chukas hagoyim? I dont get this.

    #885173

    LBK
    Participant

    you can say that about anything under the sun. driving a car, using electricity, using a phone. Darcei hagoyim has to actually be relevant to the question (e.g. can I go see a boxing match etc.).

    #885174

    funny613
    Member

    You have the definitoin of chukas hagoyim wrong-its not doing what the goyim do! cuz then we wouldn’t be allowed to breathe and chew normaly because that is also how the goyim do it! From what I remember, chukas hagoyim is doing something that the goyim attribute to avodah zarah-im not 100% sure on that, I have to go check.

    Why are we talking about chukas hagoyim though-i thought we were talking about shorts being tznius or not?

    #885175

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    cuz then we wouldn’t be allowed to breathe and chew normaly because that is also how the goyim do it!

    Technically, I suppose pikuach nefesh would override chukas hagoy in that instance.

    The Wolf

    #885176

    bpt
    Participant

    Our general rule of thumb was ok up to about 10 or 11 years old, in public. Beyond that, long pants was the standard. In a men only situation (like a gym, pool or camp) then shorts for adults were still ok.

    Oddly enough, camps (the black-hat ones, I mean)seem to turn a blind eye towards older boys in shorts, even though the grounds are packed with girls and women. Kind of a double standard, as they would never allow girl campers to dress down if men were present.

    Go figure.

    #885177

    Yanky55
    Member

    It’s definitely chukas hogoy. V’horaya? My UPS driver wears shorts.

    #885178

    yechezkel89
    Member

    why are people creating a chumra for the sake of a chumra?!!! there is no problem w/ wearing shorts unless you are davening.

    #885179

    Sister Bear
    Member

    Why not? What would be the issue? It’s not like they are as short as girls shorts.

    #885180

    if we go by solomon’s definition of chukas hagoyim, then judaism would be a bunch of starving suffocated bald nude people. goyim eat, so we can’t eat. goyim breathe, so we may not breathe. goyim have hairstyles, and since we can’t copy any possible hairstyle that goyim use, we are mechuyav to shave bald. and goyim, as was noted, wear shorts, so we can’t wear that. they wear pants, so we can’t wear that either. same goes for shirts, undershirts, shoes, socks, underwear. somehow this doesn’t seem right to me……

    sorry solomon 😉 maybe look into the sources to find out what chukas akum is.

    #885181

    apushatayid
    Participant

    To the questioner.

    Please explain how you are using the word “tznius” in your question. Why are you limiting the question to boys? Are you certain about men? At what age does boys end and men begin in your question? Are you talking about a 4 year old an 11 year old or a 27 year old?

    #885184

    holtzichfest
    Member

    to all those who dont understand what chukas hagoi means besides things that stem from avoida zara ther is also a issur to act or dp things that are done davka by goyim breathing and being clothed is not chukas hagoy cuz yidden were always breathing its thingd started by goyim i.e. going to sport stadiums or arenas to watch games many hold that is chukas hagoy the romans started it (side point they made them to watch jews fight bears and lions and how ironic that jews stream to those very arenas) anyway HARAV CHAIM EPSTEIN once said in a shmooz that its assur for bachurim to wear shorts in public he also said tznius does apply to men as well

    #885185

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Nonetheless, holtzichfest, there are plenty of things that we do that were started by non-Jews. Take the wearing of ties for example.

    Is wearing a tie assur due to the issur of Chukas Hagoy?

    Or using a web browser? 🙂 Or is it your contention that Jews used web browsers well before non-Jews did?

    The Wolf

    #885186

    holtzichfest
    Member

    stated doesnt mean just that they started it i mean things that are goyish use common sence and dont be like the people who cant accept

    #885187

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    There are 2 distinct questions here:

    1) Is wearing shorts chukas hagoyim?

    2) Is it tznius?

    I don’t know what constitutes chukas hagoyim so I can’t comment on that but I do know that my Rebbeim hold that wearing shorts in public is not b’geder hatznius. In a private setting, even a very public type of private setting such as a camp, this may be different even if there are women around. But, they are definitely very against wearing shorts on the streets of NY, even if you are exercising. In the gym is another story, but on the way to the gym, wear long pants.

    #885188

    oomis
    Participant

    The entire clothing line of certain types of Jews (including their hats) can be attributed to goyishe styles. Leave it alone. This will not be a productive thread, IMO.

    #885189

    telegrok
    Member

    Fortunately, inane idiocy is not chukas ha’goyim. Otherwise, we’d all be in trouble.

    #885190

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Yanky55, your UPS driver doesn’t work on Shabbos. Maybe he’s not a goy!

    #885191

    holtzich just in case you hadn’t noticed i was being sarcastic

    #885192

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    use common sence

    Translation: I can’t answer your question, so I’ll just dismiss it as nonsense.

    and dont be like the people who cant accept

    Translation: Just take what I say and don’t ask questions.

    The Wolf

    #885193

    holtzichfest
    Member

    oiy vey kids

    i realized that you dont think we should be starving bald people but you were making fun of the concept of shorts being chukas hagoy only because you never heard of it and thats a huge problem in todays day (end of reply to oiy vey kids) that people dont accept yes certain things are wrong and i dont care if ploini wears shorts to the gym and thats why he is fighting this thread people have to learn to be mikabel stop being stuck up admit that sometimes you are wrong many rabbonim are scared to say things because of the whiplash there gonna get for it and that is plain wrong each person thinks if he is frumer then me then hes fafrumt if hes less frum then me hes modernish many gedolim over the years have spoken about the fifth chelek of shulchan aruch i.e. mesilas yishorim orchois tzadikim theses are halachois too anyway all those who say “voo shteit” prob dont keep the rest of shulchan aruch its just an excuse “voo shteit” its a sickness that must be cured please post the whole post thanx

    #885194

    mamashtakah
    Member

    Telegrok gets the award for quote of the day. I was in hysterics when I read that!

    #885195

    Yanky55
    Member

    Feif-

    Good point, but he told me his girfriend is Jewish. Mashma, he’s not 🙂

    #885196

    Yanky55
    Member

    Holtzich-

    That’s a very good point, but don’t you think that is also a run-on sentence?

    #885197

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    holtzichfest:

    That is why we have to learn English in school.

    I have no idea what you are saying, but when I see one long rambling sentence, I dismiss what you have to say without looking at the content.

    If you rephrase with grammar, I will be happy to consider what you have to add.

    #885198

    dunno
    Member

    I can’t even begin to imagine why anyone would think it’s a problem.

    #885199

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    people have to learn to be mikabel stop being stuck up admit that sometimes you are wrong

    This phrase is exactly the problem. All it says is “I’m right, you’re wrong, I don’t have to explain it and you must now shut up and stop asking questions.”

    The Wolf

    #885200

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    LOL Telegrok.

    #885201

    yechezkel89
    Member

    again there is absolutely no problem with wearing shorts in public w/ regards to tznius, those who say that it is create an unnecessary chumra.

    #885202

    yitzy99
    Member

    I wonder if dress should be appropriate for one’s climate. Does it make sense for an Eskimo to go out with a short sleeved shirt and no hat in winter. Does someone living in the Amazon need to go about his daily chores in a fur coat? Does being overdressed in New York City on a hot August day contribute to fatigue and lack of energy to go about one’s daily tasks?

    #885203

    squeak
    Participant

    yitzy99

    Member

    I wonder if dress should be appropriate for one’s climate. Does it make sense for an Eskimo to go out with a short sleeved shirt and no hat in winter. Does someone living in the Amazon need to go about his daily chores in a fur coat? Does being overdressed in New York City on a hot August day contribute to fatigue and lack of energy to go about one’s daily tasks?

    So the Bnei Yisrael left Mitzrayyim and walked through the Tundra? Or were they walking through the desert in shorts?

    🙂

    #885204

    real shtark
    Participant

    bp totty

    “Oddly enough, camps (the black-hat ones, I mean)seem to turn a blind eye towards older boys in shorts, even though the grounds are packed with girls and women. Kind of a double standard, as they would never allow girl campers to dress down if men were present”.

    That my friend is because men may not see above the knee of a woman! (other than those permitted to him) However if a woman sees the knee of a man, she does not run into any Halachic issues!

    #885205

    holtzichfest
    Member

    I’m sorry that my words were hard to understand.I hope it didn’t cause any loss of sleep.I didn’t realize that YWN coffee room readers, were of the highest educated people who cant take a paragraph apart.The reason why I didn’t punctuate last post, was because it was a rant.I couldn’t take what was being said so I let it out.In reply to WOLFISH, the sentence you quote is not my own chidush.You are a perfect example of what I said. I just was saying people should think before they make fun of frumkeit! Thank you

    #885206

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    In reply to WOLFISH, the sentence you quote is not my own chidush.You are a perfect example of what I said. I just was saying people should think before they make fun of frumkeit!

    In no way did I make fun. I asked you a legitimate question. I’ll even ask it again in plainer terms:

    In what way is a tie different vis-a-vis Chukas haGoy than shorts? Why are shorts assur (in terms of Chukas haGoy) and ties not?

    The Wolf

    #885207

    Josh31
    Participant

    One can not just assert that something is “chukas hagoyim”.

    One has to show that it is associated with idolatry or immorality; or show that that it is an irrational practice and that idolatry or immorality has to be suspected.

    In warm climates shorts are practical, and for men there is no improper uncovering.

    #885208

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Telegrok gets the award for quote of the day. I was in hysterics when I read that!

    Post of the year contest anyone?

    That’s a request to Joseph and squeak to find the thread because I’m too lazy at the moment

    #885209

    solomonZ
    Member

    shorts are comfortable

    #885211

    rabbi P
    Member

    chukas hogayim!! its mutar to daven with them. stop spreading false halachos over the web

    #885212

    holtzichfest
    Member

    Dear Wolfish:

    I did not say that shorts are assur because of chukas hagoy, rather I said it was a matter of tznius (see where I quote Rav Chaim Epstien). Furthermore I was replying to your latest post,in which you quoted me saying,”people have to learn to be mikabel”.In that sentence I wasn’t making the case that shorts are assur because of chukas hagoy rather,I was saying in general the feeling that I got from the posters was that there was fun being made.It seemed to me that it was coming from the mere fact that they never heard about such an issur, and that is what bothered me and caused me to write “people have to learn to be mikabel”. Now you’ll ask what does learning to be mikabel, and making fun have to do with each other?The answer is it stems from not being mikabel and therefore giving them a “right” in their minds to poke fun.

    #885214

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I did not say that shorts are assur because of chukas hagoy, rather I said it was a matter of tznius

    I hear. It is not the derech of a Ben Melech to walk in the street with his thighs uncovered.

    #885215

    Sacrilege
    Member

    Here is where I start ranting about the problem I have with the “Yeshivish” world:

    There is nothing wrong with boys wearing shorts! If it is hot outside go ahead and wear shorts (The question wasnt can you wear those ’70s basketball shorts, so I’m going to figure we are talking regular normal shorts here)

    The “Yeshivish” world has spread its tenticles into every facet of everyones lives and its stifiling! Don’t force your Chumros onto everyone. Shorts is a sensitivity, no more no less. Same as colored shirts, colored pants, and any other rediculous thing the “yeshivish” world can come up with to make themselves a more exclusive “club”. Are you a bad person if you wear shorts? No. Does it mean you daven with any less kavana? No. Do you give any less tzadaka? No.

    If the question had been is it tznius for boys to run around with their shirts off you MAY have an argument. But shorts…. Really?

    #885216

    apushatayid
    Participant

    The 8 year old sons of bnei malachim DO walk in the streets with “their thighs uncovered”. Kids wear shorts. google photos of some recent “royal weddings”. I saw a businessman in lower manhattan wearing a suit that had short pants. Maybe in your neck of the woods kids and even men dont walk the streets in a certain way, but in plenty of locales even “bnei melachim” do.

    #885217

    squeak
    Participant

    Post of the year contest anyone?

    Since no votes were cast for the 2009 POY (only nominations) I say the topic is dead.

    #885218

    no one is forcing anything upon you, do what you wish.

    people are expressing their opinions about what they feel to be right, as did you.

    some may feel that it would be correct for everyone to follow their opinion, some may not, but no one is forcing anything upon you.

    you need to be strong in your convictions and not feel threatened by opinions that differ from yours.

    when someone becomes incensed and defensive of opinions that are more machmir, it usually indicates that they feel in themselves that maybe the other opinion is actually correct and they are frightened of that thought. i dont mean you, just in general

    #885219

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    apushatayid:

    Knickers are cute, and NOT shorts.

    It is also a matter of what is worn (material, etc.). If someone doesn’t want to wear it, I hear.

    I have no problem with my children wearing shorts.

    #885220

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    (Note to the mods: C’mon… you’ve got to have some sense of humor…)

    #885221

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    when someone becomes incensed and defensive of opinions that are more machmir, it usually indicates that they feel in themselves that maybe the other opinion is actually correct and they are frightened of that thought. i dont mean you, just in general

    That’s not really the issue here. I don’t have a problem with people who don’t wear shorts, drink only Cholov Yisroel, are makpid to always wear a hat/jacket by davening, keep Shabbos for 72 minutes, don’t hold by the local eruv* and so on. If that’s the way you want to go, all the more power to you – Chazak V’ematz!

    My problem is when people come out and state that when you don’t follow such practices then you are doing something completely assur — as if there is no possible reason to permit. At this point, they are no longer machmir on themselves, they are (in essence) saying that if you do so, you are doing something wrong. *That’s* the point where I stand up and begin protesting. It has nothing to do with an insecurity in my position — it has to do with being told that I’m sinning when I’m simply not following whatever chumra the person is advocating.

    The Wolf

    * I, myself, don’t use the local eruv. But I would never tell someone else not to — that’s something that they have to decide for themselves.

    #885222

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I’m not offering links to the photos (the mods wouldnt allow the links – im sure) but I am not talking about knickers. I’m talking about shorts.

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