August 4, 2010 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #592082
no its chukas hagoyimAugust 4, 2010 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #885170
no its chukas hagoyim
I don’t get your question. Are you asking it based on a tznius angle or on a chukas hagoyim angle?
In any event, I know that pointing this out will only brand me as a heretical unbeliever, but non-Jews also wear shirts with sleeves. And hats. And socks. And ties. Perhaps we should dispense with those as well?
Nonetheless, if you think they aren’t tznius or are in violation of chukas hagoy (however you came to that conclusion) then, by all means, don’t wear them.
The WolfAugust 4, 2010 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #885171
depends when- i.e excersize…August 4, 2010 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #885172
Pants are also chuakas hagoyim and so is socks and shoes and jackets and hats. o come on give me a break! How is shorts chukas hagoyim? I dont get this.August 4, 2010 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #885173
you can say that about anything under the sun. driving a car, using electricity, using a phone. Darcei hagoyim has to actually be relevant to the question (e.g. can I go see a boxing match etc.).August 4, 2010 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #885174
You have the definitoin of chukas hagoyim wrong-its not doing what the goyim do! cuz then we wouldn’t be allowed to breathe and chew normaly because that is also how the goyim do it! From what I remember, chukas hagoyim is doing something that the goyim attribute to avodah zarah-im not 100% sure on that, I have to go check.
Why are we talking about chukas hagoyim though-i thought we were talking about shorts being tznius or not?August 4, 2010 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #885175
cuz then we wouldn’t be allowed to breathe and chew normaly because that is also how the goyim do it!
Technically, I suppose pikuach nefesh would override chukas hagoy in that instance.
The WolfAugust 4, 2010 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #885176
Our general rule of thumb was ok up to about 10 or 11 years old, in public. Beyond that, long pants was the standard. In a men only situation (like a gym, pool or camp) then shorts for adults were still ok.
Oddly enough, camps (the black-hat ones, I mean)seem to turn a blind eye towards older boys in shorts, even though the grounds are packed with girls and women. Kind of a double standard, as they would never allow girl campers to dress down if men were present.
Go figure.August 4, 2010 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #885177
It’s definitely chukas hogoy. V’horaya? My UPS driver wears shorts.August 4, 2010 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #885178
why are people creating a chumra for the sake of a chumra?!!! there is no problem w/ wearing shorts unless you are davening.August 4, 2010 11:12 pm at 11:12 pm #885179
Why not? What would be the issue? It’s not like they are as short as girls shorts.August 4, 2010 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #885180
if we go by solomon’s definition of chukas hagoyim, then judaism would be a bunch of starving suffocated bald nude people. goyim eat, so we can’t eat. goyim breathe, so we may not breathe. goyim have hairstyles, and since we can’t copy any possible hairstyle that goyim use, we are mechuyav to shave bald. and goyim, as was noted, wear shorts, so we can’t wear that. they wear pants, so we can’t wear that either. same goes for shirts, undershirts, shoes, socks, underwear. somehow this doesn’t seem right to me……
sorry solomon 😉 maybe look into the sources to find out what chukas akum is.August 4, 2010 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #885181
To the questioner.
Please explain how you are using the word “tznius” in your question. Why are you limiting the question to boys? Are you certain about men? At what age does boys end and men begin in your question? Are you talking about a 4 year old an 11 year old or a 27 year old?August 4, 2010 11:42 pm at 11:42 pm #885184
to all those who dont understand what chukas hagoi means besides things that stem from avoida zara ther is also a issur to act or dp things that are done davka by goyim breathing and being clothed is not chukas hagoy cuz yidden were always breathing its thingd started by goyim i.e. going to sport stadiums or arenas to watch games many hold that is chukas hagoy the romans started it (side point they made them to watch jews fight bears and lions and how ironic that jews stream to those very arenas) anyway HARAV CHAIM EPSTEIN once said in a shmooz that its assur for bachurim to wear shorts in public he also said tznius does apply to men as wellAugust 5, 2010 12:15 am at 12:15 am #885185
Nonetheless, holtzichfest, there are plenty of things that we do that were started by non-Jews. Take the wearing of ties for example.
Is wearing a tie assur due to the issur of Chukas Hagoy?
Or using a web browser? 🙂 Or is it your contention that Jews used web browsers well before non-Jews did?
The WolfAugust 5, 2010 12:28 am at 12:28 am #885186
stated doesnt mean just that they started it i mean things that are goyish use common sence and dont be like the people who cant acceptAugust 5, 2010 12:33 am at 12:33 am #885187
There are 2 distinct questions here:
1) Is wearing shorts chukas hagoyim?
2) Is it tznius?
I don’t know what constitutes chukas hagoyim so I can’t comment on that but I do know that my Rebbeim hold that wearing shorts in public is not b’geder hatznius. In a private setting, even a very public type of private setting such as a camp, this may be different even if there are women around. But, they are definitely very against wearing shorts on the streets of NY, even if you are exercising. In the gym is another story, but on the way to the gym, wear long pants.August 5, 2010 12:35 am at 12:35 am #885188
The entire clothing line of certain types of Jews (including their hats) can be attributed to goyishe styles. Leave it alone. This will not be a productive thread, IMO.August 5, 2010 1:00 am at 1:00 am #885189
Fortunately, inane idiocy is not chukas ha’goyim. Otherwise, we’d all be in trouble.August 5, 2010 1:14 am at 1:14 am #885190
Yanky55, your UPS driver doesn’t work on Shabbos. Maybe he’s not a goy!August 5, 2010 1:30 am at 1:30 am #885191
holtzich just in case you hadn’t noticed i was being sarcasticAugust 5, 2010 3:15 am at 3:15 am #885192
use common sence
Translation: I can’t answer your question, so I’ll just dismiss it as nonsense.
and dont be like the people who cant accept
Translation: Just take what I say and don’t ask questions.
The WolfAugust 5, 2010 5:15 am at 5:15 am #885193
oiy vey kids
i realized that you dont think we should be starving bald people but you were making fun of the concept of shorts being chukas hagoy only because you never heard of it and thats a huge problem in todays day (end of reply to oiy vey kids) that people dont accept yes certain things are wrong and i dont care if ploini wears shorts to the gym and thats why he is fighting this thread people have to learn to be mikabel stop being stuck up admit that sometimes you are wrong many rabbonim are scared to say things because of the whiplash there gonna get for it and that is plain wrong each person thinks if he is frumer then me then hes fafrumt if hes less frum then me hes modernish many gedolim over the years have spoken about the fifth chelek of shulchan aruch i.e. mesilas yishorim orchois tzadikim theses are halachois too anyway all those who say “voo shteit” prob dont keep the rest of shulchan aruch its just an excuse “voo shteit” its a sickness that must be cured please post the whole post thanxAugust 5, 2010 9:48 am at 9:48 am #885194
Telegrok gets the award for quote of the day. I was in hysterics when I read that!August 5, 2010 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #885195
Good point, but he told me his girfriend is Jewish. Mashma, he’s not 🙂August 5, 2010 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #885196
That’s a very good point, but don’t you think that is also a run-on sentence?August 5, 2010 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #885197
That is why we have to learn English in school.
I have no idea what you are saying, but when I see one long rambling sentence, I dismiss what you have to say without looking at the content.
If you rephrase with grammar, I will be happy to consider what you have to add.August 5, 2010 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #885198
I can’t even begin to imagine why anyone would think it’s a problem.August 5, 2010 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #885199
people have to learn to be mikabel stop being stuck up admit that sometimes you are wrong
This phrase is exactly the problem. All it says is “I’m right, you’re wrong, I don’t have to explain it and you must now shut up and stop asking questions.”
The WolfAugust 5, 2010 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #885200
LOL Telegrok.August 5, 2010 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #885201
again there is absolutely no problem with wearing shorts in public w/ regards to tznius, those who say that it is create an unnecessary chumra.August 5, 2010 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #885202
I wonder if dress should be appropriate for one’s climate. Does it make sense for an Eskimo to go out with a short sleeved shirt and no hat in winter. Does someone living in the Amazon need to go about his daily chores in a fur coat? Does being overdressed in New York City on a hot August day contribute to fatigue and lack of energy to go about one’s daily tasks?August 5, 2010 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #885203
I wonder if dress should be appropriate for one’s climate. Does it make sense for an Eskimo to go out with a short sleeved shirt and no hat in winter. Does someone living in the Amazon need to go about his daily chores in a fur coat? Does being overdressed in New York City on a hot August day contribute to fatigue and lack of energy to go about one’s daily tasks?
So the Bnei Yisrael left Mitzrayyim and walked through the Tundra? Or were they walking through the desert in shorts?
🙂August 5, 2010 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #885204
“Oddly enough, camps (the black-hat ones, I mean)seem to turn a blind eye towards older boys in shorts, even though the grounds are packed with girls and women. Kind of a double standard, as they would never allow girl campers to dress down if men were present”.
That my friend is because men may not see above the knee of a woman! (other than those permitted to him) However if a woman sees the knee of a man, she does not run into any Halachic issues!August 5, 2010 11:59 pm at 11:59 pm #885205
I’m sorry that my words were hard to understand.I hope it didn’t cause any loss of sleep.I didn’t realize that YWN coffee room readers, were of the highest educated people who cant take a paragraph apart.The reason why I didn’t punctuate last post, was because it was a rant.I couldn’t take what was being said so I let it out.In reply to WOLFISH, the sentence you quote is not my own chidush.You are a perfect example of what I said. I just was saying people should think before they make fun of frumkeit! Thank youAugust 6, 2010 12:06 am at 12:06 am #885206
In reply to WOLFISH, the sentence you quote is not my own chidush.You are a perfect example of what I said. I just was saying people should think before they make fun of frumkeit!
In no way did I make fun. I asked you a legitimate question. I’ll even ask it again in plainer terms:
In what way is a tie different vis-a-vis Chukas haGoy than shorts? Why are shorts assur (in terms of Chukas haGoy) and ties not?
The WolfAugust 6, 2010 12:12 am at 12:12 am #885207
One can not just assert that something is “chukas hagoyim”.
One has to show that it is associated with idolatry or immorality; or show that that it is an irrational practice and that idolatry or immorality has to be suspected.
In warm climates shorts are practical, and for men there is no improper uncovering.August 6, 2010 1:28 am at 1:28 am #885208
Telegrok gets the award for quote of the day. I was in hysterics when I read that!
Post of the year contest anyone?
That’s a request to Joseph and squeak to find the thread because I’m too lazy at the momentAugust 6, 2010 1:44 am at 1:44 am #885209
shorts are comfortableAugust 6, 2010 1:51 am at 1:51 am #885211
chukas hogayim!! its mutar to daven with them. stop spreading false halachos over the webAugust 6, 2010 5:44 am at 5:44 am #885212
I did not say that shorts are assur because of chukas hagoy, rather I said it was a matter of tznius (see where I quote Rav Chaim Epstien). Furthermore I was replying to your latest post,in which you quoted me saying,”people have to learn to be mikabel”.In that sentence I wasn’t making the case that shorts are assur because of chukas hagoy rather,I was saying in general the feeling that I got from the posters was that there was fun being made.It seemed to me that it was coming from the mere fact that they never heard about such an issur, and that is what bothered me and caused me to write “people have to learn to be mikabel”. Now you’ll ask what does learning to be mikabel, and making fun have to do with each other?The answer is it stems from not being mikabel and therefore giving them a “right” in their minds to poke fun.August 6, 2010 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #885214
I did not say that shorts are assur because of chukas hagoy, rather I said it was a matter of tznius
I hear. It is not the derech of a Ben Melech to walk in the street with his thighs uncovered.August 6, 2010 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #885215
Here is where I start ranting about the problem I have with the “Yeshivish” world:
There is nothing wrong with boys wearing shorts! If it is hot outside go ahead and wear shorts (The question wasnt can you wear those ’70s basketball shorts, so I’m going to figure we are talking regular normal shorts here)
The “Yeshivish” world has spread its tenticles into every facet of everyones lives and its stifiling! Don’t force your Chumros onto everyone. Shorts is a sensitivity, no more no less. Same as colored shirts, colored pants, and any other rediculous thing the “yeshivish” world can come up with to make themselves a more exclusive “club”. Are you a bad person if you wear shorts? No. Does it mean you daven with any less kavana? No. Do you give any less tzadaka? No.
If the question had been is it tznius for boys to run around with their shirts off you MAY have an argument. But shorts…. Really?August 6, 2010 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #885216
The 8 year old sons of bnei malachim DO walk in the streets with “their thighs uncovered”. Kids wear shorts. google photos of some recent “royal weddings”. I saw a businessman in lower manhattan wearing a suit that had short pants. Maybe in your neck of the woods kids and even men dont walk the streets in a certain way, but in plenty of locales even “bnei melachim” do.August 6, 2010 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #885217
Post of the year contest anyone?
Since no votes were cast for the 2009 POY (only nominations) I say the topic is dead.August 6, 2010 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #885218
no one is forcing anything upon you, do what you wish.
people are expressing their opinions about what they feel to be right, as did you.
some may feel that it would be correct for everyone to follow their opinion, some may not, but no one is forcing anything upon you.
you need to be strong in your convictions and not feel threatened by opinions that differ from yours.
when someone becomes incensed and defensive of opinions that are more machmir, it usually indicates that they feel in themselves that maybe the other opinion is actually correct and they are frightened of that thought. i dont mean you, just in generalAugust 6, 2010 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #885219
Knickers are cute, and NOT shorts.
It is also a matter of what is worn (material, etc.). If someone doesn’t want to wear it, I hear.
I have no problem with my children wearing shorts.August 6, 2010 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #885220
(Note to the mods: C’mon… you’ve got to have some sense of humor…)August 6, 2010 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #885221
when someone becomes incensed and defensive of opinions that are more machmir, it usually indicates that they feel in themselves that maybe the other opinion is actually correct and they are frightened of that thought. i dont mean you, just in general
That’s not really the issue here. I don’t have a problem with people who don’t wear shorts, drink only Cholov Yisroel, are makpid to always wear a hat/jacket by davening, keep Shabbos for 72 minutes, don’t hold by the local eruv* and so on. If that’s the way you want to go, all the more power to you – Chazak V’ematz!
My problem is when people come out and state that when you don’t follow such practices then you are doing something completely assur — as if there is no possible reason to permit. At this point, they are no longer machmir on themselves, they are (in essence) saying that if you do so, you are doing something wrong. *That’s* the point where I stand up and begin protesting. It has nothing to do with an insecurity in my position — it has to do with being told that I’m sinning when I’m simply not following whatever chumra the person is advocating.
* I, myself, don’t use the local eruv. But I would never tell someone else not to — that’s something that they have to decide for themselves.August 6, 2010 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #885222
I’m not offering links to the photos (the mods wouldnt allow the links – im sure) but I am not talking about knickers. I’m talking about shorts.
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