November 20, 2011 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #600682
I just dont know what to think – bochurim that are not learning but working are they doing it because they they cannot be bothered really sweating at their learning or they honestly feel learning isnt for them? Because i always thought that if Hashem gave a mitzva of learning constantly, then He must have given the ability to do it- right? I understand that its easier for some and difficult for others, but shouldnt they be working harder at trying, because Hashem wouldnt give them a mitzva they cant do? I feel that girls have to work at tznius all the time, and no one gives them too many excuses just because its hard?So whats the thing with bochurim not learning (all the time)?November 20, 2011 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #1122548
Chagigah 6bNovember 20, 2011 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1122549mom12Participant
no, its not wrong.November 20, 2011 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1122550rebbi gershonMember
are you serious?? I work a full day and after that i go and learn for 3 hours. in the few hours i do learn all i see is people who call themselves “yeshivaleit” sitting and shmoozing in the coffeeroom or even in beis medrash. if these people would only be realistic they would realize that they can be much more productive by working most of the day and only learning a little and actually learning during that time.November 20, 2011 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #1122551rikki2Member
Almost all of us keep kosher all of the time. But only most of us are dressed tzniusdik all of the time. Even though some of us are careful not to hurt people’s feelings at any time, Unfortunately,few of us avoid lashon hara all of the time.
So comparing Torah 24/7 to tznius 24/7 isn’t the fair.
Especially since there are cases where boys are told by their rabbeim to go to work, but no cases of girls being told by their teachers not to dress tzniusdik.November 20, 2011 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #1122552gefenParticipant
and what about Yissachar and Zevulin?November 20, 2011 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #1122553mom12Participant
Truthfully one can work and learn if they want to..
and cover more ground then those learning an entire day!
It all depends on the ‘cheishik’November 20, 2011 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #1122554
1. How many hours a day are you really working on tznius?
2. The Torah tells us “????? ?? ????” which teaches us that one may earn a living. R’ Moshe Zt”l paskens that even if one has everything that they need in order to live, he may nevertheless continue to work in order to amass wealth.November 20, 2011 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #1122555real-briskerMember
rabbi gershon – “All I see” maybe If you would be in the BM you would see different.November 20, 2011 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #1122556
Im only comparing learning to tznius because i have heard many times that its the equivalent for girls. In any case can someone just explain why then did Hashem give the mitzva o learn yomam velayla if people cant do it? What does it say in Chagiga 6b?So why do rebeim tell boys to work? maybe just because they know they are hopeless? Please explain about Yissachar and Zevulun- i heard from the chofetz chaim that although a person works, he must learn at least 8 hours still or something.
Yeah i know that a lot of people pretend to be learning but are wasting their time and that may be worst, but at least they recognize where they should be-no? Honestly im not trying to knock anyone i seriously dont understand, and i hope people who are in that position can explain.November 20, 2011 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #1122557gefenParticipant
“but at least they recognize where they should be-no?”
NO- if you’re in shul and not davening that’s ok too? does that count as if you davened with a minyan? i don’t think so. Just being in yeshiva and not learning is wrong! to whom are you showing off?
Yissachar and Zevulin – one works, one learns. what’s the question? someone has to be able to support those who are learning. yes the workers should learn for at least a few hours but not everyone can learn 24/7.November 20, 2011 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #1122558cvParticipant
“So why do rebeim tell boys to work?”
Maybe because K’tubah states, man should support his wife.November 20, 2011 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #1122559
SA -“In any case can someone just explain why then did Hashem give the mitzva o learn yomam velayla if people cant do it?”
Some have it easier than others, but that is what this world is all about -“Lfom Tzara Agra” But just realize if s/o isn’t learning as much as they can -they shouldn’t be put down for it. Unfortunately, one of the biggest things that others say about Bochurim when it comes to Shidduchim is -that they aren’t Massmidim. I think this is wrong! Who are you to judge what a Massmid is? You can’t judge by how many hours he puts in the Bais Medrash because he could be learning 1 hour out of 12 and a guy who comes for a hour & a half and learns the whole time is a bigger Massmid than the first guy!November 20, 2011 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #1122560yichusdikParticipant
It’s not wrong.
Pirkei Avos, 2:2
Rabban Gamliel ben Rabbi Yehudah HaNassi would say: Beautiful is the study of Torah with the way of the world, for the toil of them both causes sin to be forgotten. Ultimately, all Torah study that is not accompanied with work is destined to cease and to cause sin.
Rambam Hilchos Talmud Torah 3:10
Anyone who decides to be engaged in Torah [study] and not to work, and will be supported by Tzedaqa – this person desecrates God’s name – Chillel es Hashem
And of course, we are commanded to be koveyah itim for studying Torah. The mashmo’us of being koveah time is that much of one’s time is not engaged in Torah, but in other pursuits, such as work, which are sanctioned and expected by halocho.
This is not to say that those who have a skill and talent beyond the norm shouldn’t be learning full time – aderaba, they should be fully supported. But it does indicate that at least according to Rabban Gamliel and according to Rambam, it should not be the norm for every bochur.November 20, 2011 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #1122561
Chazal tell us that to fulfill the mitzvah of learning yomam valayla one needs to…
I cannot finish the sentence because chazal said not to publicize the minimum requirement so that people will not satisfy themselves with this amount. Rest assured that this amount can be easily met by someone who works.
Never in our history did the masses learn all day. Never.
For those who can do so PRODUCTIVELY it is wonderful. But there is no requirement for everyone to do so. Those who waste their time in Yeshivos and Kollelim will have to answer for bittul zman and depleteing the funds from those who are shteiging with mesiras nefesh (not to mention taking money from hard working baalei baatim who give from their hard-earned money to support their learning).November 20, 2011 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #1122562
But not working more than learning? And only married men who need to support their wives it seems!November 20, 2011 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #1122563
Please allow me to correct myself. There was a time in our history when the masses learned Torah all day. During our 40 years in the midbar when food fell from the sky and water poured from a rock.November 20, 2011 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #1122564
Sof Davar: Also during Malchus Chizkiya.November 20, 2011 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #1122565
skiaddict -“But not working more than learning?”
Maybe this is ideal, but in our day & age -most of the time this isn’t practical.
“And only married men who need to support their wives it seems!”
What happened to supporting yourself when you don’t have a wife?
Not so long ago -kids would start working at around 6 years old.
The very top of the kids would stay in learning after that time to become the ones in Melechas Hakodesh. What you see nowadays in the Frum world is a new creation -it was never like this since the time of Matan Torah!November 20, 2011 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #1122566
skaddict: But not working more than learning? And only married men who need to support their wives it seems!
Can you explain why either of these requirements “seem” to be the case. Is there a source for this or is it merely a hergesh or prevailing wisdom?November 20, 2011 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #1122567
“Also during Malchus Chizkiya.”
I am aware of the gemara that says that they were all chachamim. Where does it say that they did not work?November 20, 2011 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #1122568
It says they would threaten those who would leave the Beis Medrash with beheading. I don’t think they were able to work.November 20, 2011 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #1122569ToiParticipant
shaychis?November 20, 2011 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #1122570Josh31Participant
“Also during Malchus Chizkiya.”
They had the booty from the defeat of Sancherev.
About 15 years after the fall of Sancherev, Chizkiya passed away, and we had (probably) the steepest spiritual decline in history.
Moshe and Yehoshua, on the other hand, presided over a more successful transition from living off the Maan to fighting for and then working the land. Perhaps Moshe’s harsh speech when two tribes sounded like they wanted to wiggle out of military service helped.November 20, 2011 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #1122571littleappleMember
gefen:if you’re in shul and not davening that’s ok too? does that count as if you davened with a minyan?
actually even if the tenth man is sleeping he still counts in the minyan.November 20, 2011 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #1122572moi aussiMember
yichusdig, I wish all the mechanchim who preach and brainwash the young boys and girls, would understand your hashkafa, you put it brilliantly.November 20, 2011 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #1122573apushatayidParticipant
It is impossible to learn all the time. One must daven, eat and sleep at some point every day.November 20, 2011 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #1122574akupermaParticipant
One should always strive for perfection, but be realistic enough to realize that only Ha-Shem is perfect.November 20, 2011 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #1122575mik5Participant
in order to fulfill the mitzvah of learning day and night, all you have to do is learn 2 halachos in the morning & 2 halachos in the evening, and say Krias Shema twice a day (morning & evening). This applies to people who work and, alas, can’t spend much time learning our holy Torah.November 21, 2011 2:54 am at 2:54 am #1122576Josh31Participant
By having the Mitzvah of learning open ended, much more enthusiasm for actual learning can be generated.
Nothing kills the excitement of a class more quickly than by making it mandatory.
With taxes, every pays exactly what is owed, not one penny more.November 21, 2011 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1122577apushatayidParticipant
One many not be able to learn “all the time”, but one can certainly be an eved hashem, all of the time in whatever they do.January 8, 2016 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #1122578HashemisreadingParticipant
Learning Boy Vs. Working Boy:
I want a boy who is LEARNING.
….Learning from his mistakes.
….Learning from the mistakes of others.
….Learning how to give without expecting anything in return.
….Learning how to forgive others for their shortcomings.
….Learning how to find true emes in a world brimming with sheker.
….Learning how to take no for an answer.
….Learning how to accept the will of Hashem when life gets stormy.
….Learning how to utilize the tools Hashem gave him to become a better eved Hashem.
….Learning how to find good in the frustrating nuances that happen throughout his day.
….Learning how to grow and become A BETTER HIM.
I want a boy who is WORKING.
….Working towards a greater goal.
….Working on his middos a little bit more each day.
….Working on strengthening his relationships with his rebbeim.
….Working on improving his relationships with his family and friends.
….Working on deepening his connection to Hakadosh Baruch Hu daily.
….Working on giving life all he’s got.
….Working on thanking Hashem for all the little things in life.
….Working on finding hashgachat Hashem in everything that happens to him throughout his day.
….Working to overcome his natural negative tendencies.
….Working on bringing Mashiach a little bit closer every day.
….Working on growing and becoming A BETTER HIM.
THIS is the person I want to marry. Just learning? Only working?! Forget that idea! I want BOTH. 🙂January 8, 2016 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #1122580LovelymeMember
My husband and I encourage our sons to work after high school if they want to of course they have chavrusas at night. It’s not the money, if they want to get married and have a family one day they will need to support themJanuary 8, 2016 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #1122581
HIR -“Learning Boy Vs. Working Boy:”
I don’t know anybody who fits your description in your post, except for me!January 8, 2016 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #1122582HashemisreadingParticipant
Health: so then you may be the person I’m looking for!!January 8, 2016 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #1122583
HIR -“Health: so then you may be the person I’m looking for!!”
But first read my post that I started – “Who wants to be a Tzaddikes like Rus”.January 10, 2016 2:47 am at 2:47 am #1122584
And this thread got seriously creepy.January 10, 2016 4:42 am at 4:42 am #1122585MammeleParticipant
Health: didn’t you say (about a week ago) that you’re not trying to convince any girls to marry older guys since they think with their emotions? Anyway, this isn’t a dating site… And your negative opinions about others isn’t helping you here or IRL.January 10, 2016 6:51 am at 6:51 am #1122586
Mammele -“Health: didn’t you say (about a week ago) that you’re not trying to convince any girls to marry older guys”
“since they think with their emotions?”
They’re exceptions to every rule!
“Anyway this isn’t a dating site… And your negative opinions about others isn’t helping you here or IRL”
I didn’t say that I’m 100% included in that criteria. I don’t think there is such a person, but maybe there is.
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