Is the Outrage Over The Killing of Cecil the Lion Justified?

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  • #616118

    mw13
    Participant

    Death threats have been sent to the American dentist who killed Cecil the lion in Zimbabwe earlier this month amid growing anger over the protected animal’s slaughter.

    Tributes to the butchered lion have poured in thousands of miles away at Dr Walter Palmer’s office in Bloomington, Minnesota, where protesters dressed as ‘dentist hunters’ also threw stuffed lions at his house.

    Celebrities including models Cara Delevingne and Candice Swanepoel have also blasted the dentist, calling him a ‘poor excuse of a human being’.

    Palmer claims he had trusted his local guides to meet legal guidelines on his trip to Africa, during which he shot Cecil with a crossbow on July 1 before skinning and beheading him.

    The hunter’s office and practice website have become a target for animal rights activists disgusted by the dentist’s actions, which have resulted in Zimbabwe authorities demanding to speak with him.

    One of the strongest denunciations came from the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA), which said on its Twitter account that Palmer should hang for killing Cecil.

    ‘If, as reported, this dentist & guides lured #CeciltheLion out of the park with food so as to shoot him on private property because shooting #CeciltheLion in the park would have been illegal, he needs to be extradited, charged, &, preferably, hanged.’

    #1154154

    Joseph
    Participant

    Killing animals for sport IS outrageous and should be made illegal. No animal should be killed for no useful purpose. Killing animals for food or skin for clothing is perfectly correct.

    This guy killed for nothing but sport. The outrage is well placed.

    OTOH, the animal rights wackos and psychopaths at PETA called for this guy to be hanged. (On their twitter feed.) Even though what he did was wrong and should be punishable (IF illegal as it should be), it isn’t and shouldn’t be a capital offense. And it demonstrates that the animal crazies value animal life over human life, and are thus far crazier than these hunters.

    #1154155

    GoGoGo
    Participant

    The lion should have run away.

    #1154156

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Yes, but not the death threats. There’s a reason it’s assur to hunt.

    #1154157

    akuperma
    Participant

    He goes to a foreign country as a tourist. Breaks the laws. Destroys a local tourist attraction (a tame lion that was used to attract tourists in a country in which tourism is a big industry). Claims it was a “sport” to kill what was basically a pet (as sporting as if he bought a domesticated cow in order to shoot it with his bow and arrow). And apparently he already has a conviction in the United States for doing the same thing.

    #1154158

    Sam2
    Participant

    I agree with Joseph in general on this, and akuperma is absolutely right in this case. But hanging (which is outlawed almost everywhere as cruel and unusual) or the death penalty in general is way too far.

    #1154159

    midwesterner
    Participant

    The fact that there is on outrage over this lion and not over any other hunting ‘victim,’ is due to having associated personality and near human dignity to it. That is a serious example of how the priorities in this world are so out of order.

    Not saying that hunting is proper. I agree with those before who said that it is not. But this is not about hunting, or it would’ve been all over the news any one of the hundreds or thousands of other times it has happened. This is about elevating an animal to quasi human status.

    As an aside, research shows that this lion earned its position in a fight between he and his brother against a lion who had the position before. His brother (Leander) was killed by that other lion (Mpofu). Mpofu had his leg broken in that fight, and was put down. Not such a sweet little Babmi, our friend Cecil. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Or as Rabban Gamliel put it, “Al d’atfeich atfuch, etc.”

    #1154160

    Sam2
    Participant

    midwesterner: I mean, I’ll disagree with that slightly. I think when an animal is beloved, it matters more. It is far more cruel (and there are more Issurim) to shoot a beloved pet than to shoot a random wild animal.

    #1154161

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, sure, there are nizkei mamon involved, but isn’t the very fact that a particular animal is so beloved indicative of confused priorities?

    #1154162

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Lions are allowed to fight other lions and kill them. It’s not against lions’ laws. But that doesn’t make it any less wrong for a human to kill a lion, especially without a fight. (Shooting another lion is against lions’ laws. Lions never shoot at other lions.)

    #1154163

    midwesterner
    Participant

    This animal was hefker. What possible issurim could there be if it is beloved? Maybe d’alach sanei, l’chavrach lo saaved?

    #1154164

    midwesterner
    Participant

    Lions never shoot at other lions because they are too stupid to figure out how. Because they don’t have sechel. Because they are not tzelem Elokim. They are not not-shooting because of some sense of fair play. If they could figure out how, you bet they would.

    #1154165

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Did he know it was Cecil?

    #1154166

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Lions aren’t stupid. They just don’t have opposable thumbs or human skill. Because they aren’t humans. They were never meant to be humans. And they know they aren’t supposed to be human, so they follow lion rules. Even if lions could use guns, a lion wouldn’t be in charge unless there was a fight.

    #1154167

    pcoz
    Member

    Had he gone back in time and killed Cecil before Cecil became famous he could have avoided the free stuffed toy barrage.

    #1154168

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: No. People are allowed to have hobbies. They’re allowed to have icons. And they’re allowed to have pets. There is nothing wrong with being passionate about a hobby. There’s nothing wrong with loving a pet. Loving a pet more than a person? That’s a screwed-up priority. Loving a pet in general? Nothing at all wrong with that. This lion was all three to a lot of people. It had meaning on both a national and personal level. It’s a big deal and not indicative of social problems. It was an icon.

    #1154169

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    I like my neighbor’s dog more than I like any of the people I haven’t heard of.

    #1154170

    writersoul
    Member

    midwesterner: I don’t think that’s the issue- I think it’s more that the fact that the lion was high-profile made the issue of the illegal hunting high-profile as well.

    #1154171

    Did you hear the other story?

    A man traveled to Zimbabwe for an exotic vacation. The night before he left, he got into a fight with a local and killed him. He then hid the body and flew home to Minnesota before the crime was discovered.

    This never happened, but if it would have, how many people do you think would be standing outside this man’s home right now shouting death threats?

    Something to ponder…

    #1154172

    charliehall
    Participant

    He should be forced to reimburse the people of Zimbabwe for the lost tourism revenue.

    I have known many deer hunters in the US. After they bag a deer they eat venison for a month and if they have too much meet they donate it to a homeless shelter. While Jews should not participate in deer hunting, it is not a wasteful sport. This kind of trophy hunting has no rationale and it should be banned worldwide.

    It should also be mentioned that lions are an endangered species. Are we to second guess HaShem and claim that lions shouldn’t exist?

    #1154173

    Health
    Participant

    Why isn’t there demonstrations every time there is an abortion?!?

    #1154174

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Meanwhile, the same people crying over this animal, insist that any woman should be allowed to kill her baby. And sell its organs and limbs.

    It doesn’t take a supreme court decision to show that the values of the nations, and in particular the left wing, are the polar opposite of true values.

    #1154175

    american_yerushalmi
    Participant

    While it was probably wrong to hunt just for sport, he actually did receive a permit from the relevant authorities, so no one has any real basis to object, aside from some absurd emotional attachment — real or imagined — to a lion (!). At the same time, unspeakable atrocities are being committed against human beings throughout the middle east by ISIS, etc., over a million Syrian civilians have been rendered homeless, not to mention kidnappings etc. by Boka Harum in Africa. The headline question here was is the outrage justified? Not if comes in place of indignation against crimes perpetrated against humans! If all we are hearing is the outrage for killing a lion, but not a peep about human suffering, well, it’s totally out of place. A classic example of misplaced priorities.

    #1154176

    As a Jew and since everyone here is Jewish as well, animals are obviously on a MUCH lower level than a human so NO they should not kill the dentist even tho he did something wrong. Does anyone know why he killed it? Is the guy Jewish because he has a Jewish last name?

    #1154177

    Matan1
    Participant

    He killed it for fun

    #1154178

    pcoz
    Member

    If the lion killed the dentist would people be worried?

    #1154179

    akuperma
    Participant

    The lion was NOT hefker – he was owned. He was property, and not that of the hunter. He had a permit to kill a wild lion, not a privately owned one. Unless he was drunk, he should have noticed the lion was not acting like a wild savage beast but like a tamed domesticted one that was used as a tourist attraction (normal wild lions go to great lengths to avoid humans – which is why the goyim consider it a test of skill to catch one).

    If an American had gone to Zimbabwe, or anywhere else for that matter, and shot some person for sport he would have been confronted by much than outrage. In the US, had he show someones pet or livestock for “sport” he would have caused outrage, and would have been sued and perhaps arrested.

    #1154180

    ABS-SA
    Participant

    If it makes people feel better, Cecil was 13 Years old. Lions generally live to between 10 and 16 years in the wild and longer in zoos (where they are unlikely to be killed by younger, stronger lions or catch diseases). He had a good innings!

    Also, the money that this guy paid for the kovod of killing an unsuspecting animal does go to conservation and as such it is not wasteful.

    I do however find the whole thing abhorrent!

    #1154181

    mw13
    Participant

    american_yerushalmi:

    At the same time, unspeakable atrocities are being committed against human beings throughout the middle east by ISIS, etc., over a million Syrian civilians have been rendered homeless, not to mention kidnappings etc. by Boka Harum in Africa. The headline question here was is the outrage justified? Not if comes in place of indignation against crimes perpetrated against humans! If all we are hearing is the outrage for killing a lion, but not a peep about human suffering, well, it’s totally out of place. A classic example of misplaced priorities.

    +1. This action may have been illegal and it may have been immoral, but it in no way warranted the fury it engendered. It would have been nice to see even a fraction of this vehemence be directed against the ISIS beheadings, Planned Parenthood selling pieces of babies, or any of the other truly reprehensible crimes against humanity that have taken place recently. Misplaced priorities, indeed.

    #1154182

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Cecil lived in a protected wild life preserve where it was illegal to shoot it. He was lured out of the protected sanctuary into a place where it wasnt illegal to kill

    #1154183

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    The people who are outraged at the killing of the lion are the ones who are objecting civilly. The others are there for a sick kind of enjoyment similar to killing a lion for sport.

    #1154184

    squeak
    Participant

    Those who are pointing out hypocrisy or misplaced priorities of animal rights extremists misunderstand their worldview. Humans are the source of all problems and they support anything that reduces their numbers, including genocide ala ethnic cleansing or ISIS or infanticide. Their utopia would be a world where there were no human births above a fixed ratio, where humans are euthanized as soon as they cease to be productive, and where humans living in areas that were once animal habitats would leave (or feed themselves to the starved displaced animals).

    #1154186

    mw13
    Participant

    HARARE (Reuters) – As social media exploded with outrage this week at the killing of Cecil the lion, the untimely passing of the celebrated predator at the hands of an American dentist went largely unnoticed in the animal’s native Zimbabwe.

    “What lion?” acting information minister Prisca Mupfumira asked in response to a request for comment about Cecil, who was at that moment topping global news bulletins and generating reams of abuse for his killer on websites in the United States and Europe.

    The government has still given no formal response, and on Thursday the papers that chose to run the latest twist in the Cecil saga tucked it away on inside pages.

    One title had to rely on foreign news agency copy because it failed to send a reporter to the court appearance of two locals involved.

    In contrast, the previous evening 200 people stood in protest outside the suburban Minneapolis dental practice of 55-year-old Walter Palmer, calling for him to be extradited to Zimbabwe to face charges of taking part in an illegal hunt.

    Local police are also investigating death threats against Palmer, whose location is not known. Because many of the threats were online, police are having difficulty determining their origins and credibility.

    Palmer, a lifelong big game hunter, has admitted killing Cecil with a bow and arrow on July 1 near Zimbabwe’s Hwange national park, but said he had hired professional local guides with the required hunting permits and believed the hunt was legal.

    For most people in the southern African nation, where unemployment tops 80 percent and the economy continues to feel the after-effects of billion percent hyperinflation a decade ago, the uproar had all the hallmarks of a ‘First World Problem’.

    “Are you saying that all this noise is about a dead lion? Lions are killed all the time in this country,” said Tryphina Kaseke, a used-clothes hawker on the streets of Harare. “What is so special about this one?”

    As with many countries in Africa, in Zimbabwe big wild animals such as lions, elephants or hippos are seen either as a potential meal, or a threat to people and property that needs to be controlled or killed.

    The world of Palmer, who paid $50,000 to kill 13-year-old Cecil, is a very different one from that inhabited by millions of rural Africans who are more than occasionally victims of wild animal attacks.

    According to CrocBITE, a database, from January 2008 to October 2013, there were more than 460 recorded attacks by Nile crocodiles, most of them fatal. That tally is almost certainly a massive underrepresentation.

    “Why are the Americans more concerned than us?” said Joseph Mabuwa, a 33-year-old father-of-two cleaning his car in the center of the capital. “We never hear them speak out when villagers are killed by lions and elephants in Hwange.”

    #1154187

    mw13
    Participant

    Finally, a voice of sanity:

    #1154188

    oomis
    Participant

    The hunting and slaughter of any animal for sport should always be decried. It is disgusting, abhorrent, and filled with hubris (as is evidenced by the pride that this idiot feels in his accomplishment).That said, I find it curious that all the people who are so outraged over the killing of Cecil (and naming him seems to have humanized him more than is warranted, as there are plenty of other lions who are hunted and killed and no one has protested)have nothing to say about the slaughter of the three Jewish boys in E”Y a year ago, the drowning,fire-setting, beheading, throat-slitting etc. by ISIS and their ilk, or anything that is going on in any foreign country where innocent people are being terrorized and murdered. But let someone hurt one animal in the wild…POW! Let’s string that lion-murderer up and teach HIM a lesson, why don’t we!!!!! Makes me sick.

    #1154189

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Names aren’t only for humans. We give them to inanimate objects like boats and buildings too. Cities, businesses, some plants, why not name a lion?

    #1154190

    pcoz
    Member

    The dentist should have given the lion a filling instead.

    #1154191

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Giving a lion a filling takes real foolish bravery.

    #1154192

    charliehall
    Participant

    “have nothing to say about the slaughter of the three Jewish boys in E”Y a year ago, the drowning,fire-setting, beheading, throat-slitting etc. by ISIS and their ilk, or anything that is going on in any foreign country where innocent people are being terrorized and murdered. “

    Speak for yourself. I have had a lot to say about those other issues.

    #1154193

    yytz
    Participant

    Interestingly, Palestinians stoned to death a striped hyena recently, and filmed it and put it on Youtube, and the striped hyena is even more endangered than lions. No outcry, of course, in this upside-down world.

    As someone quipped, if you’re and liberal having trouble understanding what the big deal about the Planned Parenthood scandal is, imagine they were selling baby lion parts instead…

    #1154194

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    We humans like cute, pretty or majestic-looking animals. Lions look regal, while hyenas look malicious. We also prefer eagles over vultures. Just because vultures are ugly.

    #1154195

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Humans shoot and kill other humans multiple times a day and nobody screams. In NYC 50 people were shot in 25 separate incidents over the weekend, and all people are worrying about is a dead lion and that perhaps his brother was shot as well. Its a good thing CNN sent me that breaking news alert that it wasnt Cecils brother Jericho that was shot, otherwise my week would have been ruined. Meanwhile several dozen additional “brothers” were shot by humans over the weekend in NYC and its business as usual!!

    #1154196

    oomis
    Participant

    CharlieHall, I was referring to the rest of the world, all the movie stars and phony liberals who have been saying hang the guy for killing Cecil (and I don’t care that he was named, it’s more that I feel that people relate more to HIM than to other innocent animals that are slaughtered, BECAUSE he has a name and they don’t). I think the dentist is a hunter, and I find hunting fopr sport to be especially loathsome. But there are far worse things going on in the world that cannot elicit even a 10th of the protest that this poor lion has.

    People are screaming about the poor Palestinian infant who was burned to death, allegedly by chareidi settlers (until it is proved that this was not done by Palestinians themseleves as a frameup, I will not believe it just because a magen dovid was painted in graffiti and revenge words were written – Palestinians could have done all that themselves). There was an interfaith prayer vigil scheduled, led by a rabbi and an imam, I believe.

    Where was the same outcry when the little three month old JEWISH baby was murdered? Where was the world outcry and prayer vigil for the people who were murdered amidst their davening? What about the pregnant woman, an only child expecting her first baby, blown to bits in Sbarros Pizza many years ago? And scores and scores of other truly innocent victims have died at the hands of those who are now calling for an Intifada.

    We need to get our priorities straight, call a spade a spade, and as a people worry more about our own tzoros, than about the animal kingdom. Please note, I said worry MORE about our tzoros, which does not mean we should not worry about tzaar baalei chayim. We absolutely should, and we do. But people come before animals. If you are upset about Cecil (as I am ), please encourage others to be at least as worried about Jews.

    #1154197

    pcoz
    Member

    Can I sell baby striped hyena parts to scared dentists?

    #1154198

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Charlie,

    “Speak for yourself. I have had a lot to say about those other issues.”

    Oomis, in her original post said she was referring to those who say ” Let’s string that lion-murderer up and teach HIM a lesson, why don’t we!!!!! “

    Your “outrage” at Oomis indicates that you are among the “Let’s string him up crowd” by your own admission.

    Ponder that, why don’t you.

    #1154199

    apushatayid
    Participant

    The government in Zimbabwe is corrupt. Its citizens are starving and poor. Nobody says a word about this but a lion gets killed, the whole world goes crazy.

    #1154200

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    People have always been crazy.

    #1154201

    mw13
    Participant

    Here we go again…

    (CNN) – Devastated. Heartbroken. In mourning.

    Those are some of the words the Cincinnati Zoo & Botanical Garden used Sunday in a contrite explanation for the death of Harambe, a 17-year-old western lowland gorilla killed on Saturday to save a boy who slipped into the zoo’s habitat.

    The boy was in “imminent danger,” leaving the zoo’s Dangerous Animal Response Team with no option but to shoot the 450-pound gorilla, zoo director Thane Maynard said in a statement on Facebook. Tranquilizers may not have taken effect in time to save the boy while the dart might have agitated the animal, worsening the situation, Maynard said.

    “We are heartbroken about losing Harambe, but a child’s life was in danger and a quick decision had to be made,” he said.

    The words did little to assuage an angry chorus of critics who believed the gorilla’s death was unnecessary. Many blamed the boy’s mother for failing to look after her son. Neither the boy nor his family have been identified.

    Some even suggested the boy’s parents should be held criminally responsible for the incident. An online petition seeking “justice for Harambe” through criminal charges earned more than 8,000 signatures in less than 24 hours.

    Others criticized the zoo for responding with what they felt was excessive force. Demonstrators gathered outside the zoo on Sunday calling for a boycott.

    How far has the world fallen when people cannot figure out who’s life they should be more concerned about, a child or a monkeys?

    #1154202

    newbee
    Member

    Actually, Im not sure what halacha would say about that. Joseph?

    #1154203

    newbee
    Member

    “Here we go again…”

    Saving someones life from imminent danger is very different than going into the jungle and torturing a wild lion to death for no other reason than to take your picture with its corps because you are a rich dentist with lots of money you don’t know what to do with.

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