February 6, 2014 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #1003312interjectionParticipant
I don’t want to be a shadchan for the following reasons but I do agree that they should get paid.
I think the problem is that people are comparing shadchanim to plumbers when they are actually much more similar to therapists. Not everyone can be a shadchan. It takes a lot more effort than just throwing two names together. To be a shadchan, one needs to have a certain understanding of human nature and of what personality types go together. They have to have guts to redt the shidduch (because there is always the risk that both sides will be mad at them) and they have to have the right level of persuasion to help the couple make the best decision. Most frequently, the one who makes the big bucks is not the one who casually mentions the name to one of the mothers at a simcha; that person usually gets something not much more expensive than a candy tray or some flowers. The one who gets a respectable sum is the one who is on call almost 24 hrs a day for the 2+ weeks from the time the names are redt until the couple gets engaged. However, the 24hr/day job, most frequently, does not get compensation if the shidduch falls through, even if the couple called them 5 times a day for a month.
Being the shadchan is the most important part of the wedding and takes as much skill and much more time as does everything else involved in preparing the wedding. It seems like less work, however if you factor in the time the shadchan put in, as well as putting her/his reputation on the line, the shadchan actually put forth a lot more effort than did anyone other service for the wedding.
It actually is also similar to a babysitter, because first of all, it is a chessed that costs money and second that it is something you can do yourself but it is a massive convenience. The fact that the teenage girl is getting paid does not make it any less of a chessed when was willing to babysit for you despite that she had piles of homework and tests to study for. If you want to use the service, it costs money. No one is chaining you to do the service but the service will cost the provider time, money and aggravation and they deserve compensation.
It is a hard job, it is a time consuming job and it would be an extremely rewarding job if people didn’t compare them to thieving plumbers.February 6, 2014 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #1003313
interjection – so well said!
AZ – I think the jist your last post was excellent. I also think you beautifully stated the misunderstanding without realizing it. When you said that the sense of the thread was that paying the shadchan was an afterthought, I disagree wholeheartedly. Paying the shadchan is a halachic obligation and is necessary. The difficulty (some) posters were having was the attitudes of SOME of the shadchanim toward that process. Not paying the shadchan, the attitudes of SOME shadchanim regarding that process.February 6, 2014 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #1003314
Interjection, I am moche on behalf of plumbers. I have had to use several, and they were all honest.February 6, 2014 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #1003315
The second answer may sound a bit cynical, but I ask sincerely: if you can’t afford the $1000 for the shadchan, how do you expect to pay for a wedding, which costs tens of thousands of dollars”
I am surprised that you would ask such a thing, which to be blunt is not really anyone’s business, but I will nevertheless answer you. I have made two weddings, and we had to refinance our house to be able to afford our share (NOT tens of thousands not even close, I don’t know what type of wedding YOU might make, but that is just not gonna happen in my lifetime, unless the other side pays it or we win the Lottery). We kept costs to a minimum, and I got some help from gemach flowers, gemach gowns, etc., and made beautiful weddings on a very limited budget. Some family members helped us to secure some hachnossas kallah funds, as well. And that is what I anticipate will have to happen again when my other three children get married BE”H. And thank you for the bracha that it should happen soon. Amein for us and for all the unmarried young men and women.February 6, 2014 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #1003316interjectionParticipant
God forbid I am so sorry it came across that way. I wasn’t saying plumbers are thieves. I was contesting the fact that people were comparing shadchanim to thieves, as well as to plumbers. I did NOT mean that plumbers are thieves. I really apologize because I didn’t realize it could be interpreted like that:(February 6, 2014 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #1003317
“As I said, I don’t think it actually happens.”
The OP is proof it happens.February 6, 2014 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #1003318
How? No din Torah as far as I know, no bickering, just a question if there’s a way to ask for proper shadchanus properly.
Interjection, thanks for the clarification.February 6, 2014 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #1003319AZOI.ISParticipant
“to avoid the bickering and potential bad blood”
The OP is proof it happens.
I thought I was done with this thread but I couldnt not respond.
I made my first Shidduch over thirty years ago. Since then Ive never complained to the parties involved when I got no Shadchanus at all and I never said anything but Thank You when I received Shadchanus of any amount. Im not sure where you gathered that I did otherwise. No bickering, no bad blood with anyone. Thats not my style.
Interjection, all I can say is Thank You Thank You Thank You.February 6, 2014 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #1003320
We know for certain their is ill will. this thread proves it. ill will on both sides. just because you and I dont know how many have ended up in a din torah is irrelevant.February 6, 2014 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #1003322
“A Shadchan relative of mine”February 6, 2014 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #1003323AZOI.ISParticipant
“A Shadchan relative of mine”
You caught me. Youre right, Im wrong.February 6, 2014 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #1003324
??? ???? ??? ????February 6, 2014 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #1003325
OK, this thread is about how to ask for shadchanus tactfully. The only way to avoid the necessity for an unpleasant encounter, is to be candid from the outset. Think of it this way – how do potential machetonim best avoid inyanim about support for a learning boy after marriage? They speak candidly to the shadchan from the very beginning, so the boy’s side knows in advance that shidduchim will only be redt to them that are shayach in this area. It is crucial for such a parent to know if the girl’s parents are willing and able to support the couple, how much they will, and for how long. The girl’s parents can weigh in their opinion, as well. If there is no meeting of the minds, the shidduch does not have to be set up, and no one is resentful for being blindsided.
I fail to see why any shadchan would not prefer to do business the same way, in expressing from the outset the expectation of a specified amount if and when the shidduch goes through. That avoids the need for “tact” etc. later on. This is my fee, payable upon the wedding (or whatever is agreed upon), and a contract should be signed.The person then can decided to avail himself of the services or not. Yes yes, no no. No hurt feelings.February 6, 2014 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #1003326
you are most certainly correct. HOWEVER, they (shadchanim) don’t feel comfortable doing so at the begining, and their lack of comfort level is to a large extent due to how they will be perceived if they were to do it.
in light of that, the question became, what can be done after the fact to tactfuly request shadchanus.
Perhaps this thread will assist in doing away with some faulty notions, and the day may yet come, when shadchanim are comfortable expressing up front what their shadchanus fee is, or some variation of that.
(btw the comparison to mechantanim would be if each time a boy and girl date, prior to date #1 the two sides would sit down and discuss financial arrangement should the couple get engaged. You can well understand that such would be uncomfortable in light of the reality the the overwhelming majority of first dates (it’s probably something like 1 out of 20 for the younger singles) do NOT result in engagement. As such shadchanim would feel silly talking about payment each time before a first date, since it is very unlikely to result in engagement. If the system was that shadchanim were paid date 2/ date 4, then i think it is more likely for such discussion to take place prior to date one.)February 7, 2014 12:26 am at 12:26 am #1003327golferParticipant
AZ, oomis’s piece was clear and correct. And you are wrong.
Someone with the maturity to get involved with people’s lives by redting a shidduch shouldn’t be squirming and stuttering about mentioning –gasp! let me just close my eyes while I type the word– m o n e y.
Shadchanim would do well to be upfront, straightforward and honest about a lot of things. And shadchanus is as good a place as any to start.February 7, 2014 4:41 am at 4:41 am #1003328oyyoyyoyParticipant
i dont know… theres a clear misconception that shadchanim are evil money hungry monsters. when a shadchan mentions money right away people will jump the gun and be like “here we go, all they see is money and were just merchandise to peddle”February 7, 2014 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #1003329
Thank you oyyoyyoy,
You articulated clearly one of the points i was trying to make.February 7, 2014 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #1003330
when money is discussed up front it sets a reasonable expectation from the payer that the payee will perform some sort of service on their behalf. when those expectations are not met, there are disgruntled customers and payers. I hate to say it, a services contract that will hold up in beis din outlining the responsibilities and obligations of both sides, is the shadchans best defense to avoid receiving a candy dish as shadchanus.February 7, 2014 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #1003331
APY, Shulchan Aruch should be sufficient.February 7, 2014 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #1003332
APY- are you suggesting that the reason why some people don’t properly compensate shadchanim after they/their children get engaged/married is due to their sense that the shadchan didn’t perform their duties properly?
or are you simply saying, that a proper contract would solve the problem.
On that point your are correct, it certainly would, but it isn’t done for the various reasons outlined above. And the lack of a proper contract, in no way shape or form alleviates a parties halachic obligation to compensate according to the going rate.
Now here’s a another little tidbit, the vast majority of people who are “shadchanim” and this might even go for every single one of them, began in the profession without any intention of doing it “full time”. They had a idea….. they tried to help someone they knew… and presto they made a shidduch.
To a large extent the difference between those who stay the course, and those who quit early on, is how quickly they saw their first engagement. Inevitably shadchanim (surely ones starting out) go months and months without any “successes” (so long as we erroneously define a shadchans success as engagements made).
If someone decides to try their hand at shadchanus, and goes months without making a enagement, well, they will very likely quit…
People -being human beings- often quit when they don’t see “success” from their efforts.
If they are lucky enough to make a shidduch or two early on, then they are more likely to stay with it when they inevitably hit the dry spell of months and months without making a shidduch.
Continuing onwards, it takes quite a few years until a shadchan reaches the level where they are consistently making 6/7 shidduchim a year. That is typical of people who are very busy shadchanim. (there is a small tiny group of people in the country who consistently make significantly more shidduchim than that per year)
At that point, say each side gives nicely based on today’s going rate and the shadchan recieves on average 2500 per completed shidduch, x seven shidduchim a year.
That is whopping $17,500 (and often the average per shidduch is NOT 2500 total)
And the time effort and energy that is required to make 7 shidduchim a year, is was beyond (see interjections post earlier on this page) what that same person if they chooose could expend in many other fields using similar skills that a shadchasn uses (think sales), and they would bring home many times that amount of money if they were in a different field.
Is there any wonder, why so many potential shadchanim leave and go into other fields where they are
a. more appreciated
b. better compensated
c. have better quality of life
and surely they can find other avenues to do chesed.
and who loses out when shadhcanim leave the “business”
the singles who don’t have enough people to properly service their shidduch needs…
If we as a community would like their to be more people redding shidduchim, then it might behove us a community to figure out ways to make sure shadchanim are better appreciated and better compensated.
In a previous post I outlined two such suggestions.
(the reason this is relevant to this thread, is that the issue of how shadchanim are currently compensated stems from a underlying under appreciation/under realization of what is involved in redding shidducim on a consistent basis.
I have no doubt, that if people knew of the effort involved, then people would tell the caterer/florist/hall/clothing store, etc. I apologize that i can’t afford anything more than a candy dish as payment for the beautiful wedding you made, but i absolutely must pay the shadchan………
By the way, do you know which people tend to give the nicest shadchanus?
Shadchanim themselves. To people who make their kids shidduchim.
Because they DO appreciate what it takes…February 7, 2014 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #1003333
AZ – another well written post, thank you.
To add, not argue your last point, I don’t believe that shadchanim are under compensated because of what you stated (under appreciation etc) I can’t speak for anyone outside of my own experience (though many feel free to do so) but I think that many of us do not believe we are under compensating. I think that for so many of us who do NOT promise thousands to the couple, and do NOT make weddings for tens of thousands of dollars, we believe with all our hearts that a thousand dollars, which is a treasure in our eyes, is something HUGE to give someone. So is $500. If halacha allows it, but you feel it isn’t enough to make a shadchan feel worthwhile, I am sad for them. Truly. Many of us do community work that requires at least as much time and trouble, but if someone handed me $1000 for something I did for them, I would be overjoyed at my good fortune, I would not feel under compensated.
And trust me, with the work I do dealing with people who are hungry, I get how much time is involved, but I would never make it your responsibility to pay my bills.
I’m hoping this gives you another viewpoint, we do appreciate, we just have different views on what we need to feel well compensated.
So it may be the low end of the range, but I would NEVER think of it as under compensating, because to many of us it is a fortune.February 7, 2014 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #1003334
so long as the amount given is sanctioned by halacha, i have no problem.
I didn’t say 500 isn’t enough for a shadchan to “feel” worthwhile, I wrote it simply isn’t enough to enable shadchanim to stay in the field.
It’s the reality of life as is evidenced by the drop out rate amongst shadchanim and the clear dearth of available shadchanim relative to the communal need.
And as you clearly agree, if $500 is NOT sanctioned by halacha, then it is not correct to give that to a shadchan, anymore than it is to give it to the caterer whose bill is a few thousand dollars.February 7, 2014 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #1003335
I’m with Syag.February 7, 2014 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #1003336
HOWEVER, they (shadchanim) don’t feel comfortable doing so at the begining, and their lack of comfort level is to a large extent due to how they will be perceived if they were to do it.”
Sorry, but if it is an “accepted and well-known practice” to be paid a “going rate” then most people expect the shadchan to charge for the service, by your own acknowledgement. It’s just a matter of defining the parameters. And just as with any other business, the customer should be told the price before agreeing to the service.February 7, 2014 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #1003338
(btw the comparison to mechantanim would be if each time a boy and girl date, prior to date #1 the two sides would sit down and discuss financial arrangement should the couple get engaged.”
I cannot speak for other people, but my close friend married off her eldest son, a serious and extremely bright fulltime learner, and believe you me, she was VERY upfront with the shadchan that the ONLY girls to be redt to her son were those whose families wanted a fulltime learner for their daughter and wanted to pay for full support of the couple.
If anyone wanted to be redt to him, but were not willing (or able) to do so, they did not accept the shidduch, because full financial support was what they were looking for, and he had several offers waiting in the wings who WERE willing to do so. I will not address the pros or cons of such a requirement in a shidduch, because my own personal views differ greatly, and I believe a chosson should support his kallah, even while he is in Yeshivah. I recognize that other people have a differing, valid opinion.
The point is, you don’t wait until the couple is dating for the parents to express their needs regarding something so crucial. If you are upfront with a shadchan about the things that are fiscally important to youOR to the shadchan, you avoid misunderstandings. If I can tell a shadchan my daughter will never go out with a guy who smokes (even a “little”), then that shadchan knows that that really nice, perfect Marlboro Man will not be buying her an engagement ring in this lifetime, so don’t waste his OR her time by trying to redt the shidduch.February 7, 2014 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #1003339
Just to be clear, a shadchan can very easily ascertain the financial support issue prior to setting up a date. In interviewing a girl’s parents, one of the questions should be, “What is your position on your financial support of the couple while the boy learns fulltime, for how long are you willing to give the support, and what is the scope of that support, if any?”
I see no issue with that at all. It’s a fair querstion, and it avoids redting shidduchim that l’chatchilah will not be pelasing to the parents on either side.February 7, 2014 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #1003340
AZ – I do agree with you, but that wasn’t really the point I was making. I was trying to explain that if anyone feels under appreciated it may not be because they are, it may just be their misinterpretation of people’ intentions.
Either way, regarding your comment, “it simply isn’t enough to enable shadchanim to stay in the field.”
I don’t know a single Rebbe or Morah who is making enough at their job to make ends meet. While I would like to fix that, I personally don’t believe lack of funds is a reason to leave a field. It just depends on what you are willing to live with (or without).February 7, 2014 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #1003341
and as an aside, I worked full time as a stay at home mom for 15 years and was sorely underappreciated, undercompensated and surely underfed. It didn’t pay our bills but it was important to me 🙂February 9, 2014 2:38 pm at 2:38 pm #1003342
I too would surely like to see Rebbeim and Moras get paid far better than they currently are,
I think we can all agree, that their is no “crisis” situation in our communities, that schools can not find enough rebbeim and morahs.
Yet we all seem to agree that there clearly are not enough people involved in redding shidducim.
So i think it is self evident that the financial compensation quality of life etc package that goes along with being a rebbe morah is far superior to that of a shadchan,
and thus their are plenty of people who are happy to be rebbeim and morahs, – despite the many challenges- and not nearly enough shadchanim.
AND the burnout rate of those who do try to be shadchanim is 10x’s the burnout rate of rebbeim and morash.
hence, you comparison is faulty.
as for being a stay at home mom, yeah these shadchanim do that as well.
bthw-for the record, find me a shadhcan who consistently makes 6/7 shidduchim per year, and you will find a person who simply is unable to have any kind of employment, as making 6/7 shidduchim per year is full time work.
I am simply stating the obvious, if 6/7 shidduchim a year = maybe 17k… well then we shouldn’t wonder why we have so few people in the country who are ready to to it…
your comparison to support is off.
surely, each parent of the single should/could do their research and ask around PRIOR to their child’s dating what shadchanim or perhaps a specific shadchan expects in terms of shadhcnaus.
that’s the equivalent of a shadchan discussing money with each side at the beginning.
However, expecting a shadchan to discuss shadchanus gelt with each side prior to the first date, is the equivalent of the potential mechutanim/singles themselves discussing money, prior to the first date.
I have yet to see a situation where on the first date the boy walks into the house, and before taking out the girl, he says to the girls father,
“um, before we get started, lets just be clear what the financial expectations arrangements will be in the event that your daughter and i end up getting married.”
The shadchnaim i know, are very comfortable discussing in conversation with people they know what they would like to receive for shadhchanus for shidduchim they make, they just aren’t comfortable saying that to the singles families prior to redding them a shidduch.February 9, 2014 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #1003343
AZ – Your comparison does not really make sense. There are huge shortages of good rebbes and morahs, the fact that people are willing to stand in front of a classroom and teach instead of working elsewhere is no raya that they are compensated better. Perhaps they are unqualified for anything else and nobody else will hire them. Or perhaps they too believe that lack of funds is not a reason to leave a field
Also, I was not aware that there is a shortage of shadchanim by any means, so maybe there are cultural differences at play.
The financial compensation, quality of life etc package that goes along with being a rebbe where I live is not far superior to anything. And I know, because I distribute food to many, many rebbes but few, if any, of the shadchanim. ($17k is a lot more than you seem to realize)
And as far as the shadchan who makes 6/7 shidduchim a year being simply unable to have any kind of employment, I will take your word for it that that is your experience, but with all due respect, I don’t buy it. Knowing how much face and phone time some of us in the other community service areas put in, it’s grueling and physically and emotionally draining, but we work jobs and take care of families.
I still agree with you that it is hard and misunderstood, but I think that if it is going to stand on a pedastal, there are many other “jobs” that pay little to nothing that will stand along side them.February 9, 2014 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #1003344
and as an aside, I worked full time as a stay at home mom for 15 years and was sorely underappreciated, undercompensated and surely underfed. It didn’t pay our bills but it was important to me 🙂 “
SYAG +1February 9, 2014 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1003345
AZ, there will never be a shortage of rebbies, as long as there are yeshivah boys who are not preparing themselves for any type of other career, by getting a good secular education. Being a rebbie almost seems to be a default position for many such bochurim, in my experience. At least, that is what they have all told me they plan to do with their lives. And before anyone jumps down my throat, I have been specific in stating that this is my personal experience with the Kollel sons of some of my friends, who are doing exactly what I just said.February 9, 2014 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #1003346
“Also, I was not aware that there is a shortage of shadchanim by any means, so maybe there are cultural differences at play.”
Then i guess we are talking apples and oranges.
All i’m trying to do is help the singles, and i’m arguing that the current system of compensation for shadchanim is hurting the singles.
If in your circles that doesn’t seem to be a problem, then we are surely not talking to each other.
I for one don’t care much for shadchanim’s quality of life anymore than i care about anyone else’s.
I was simply pointing out that if we as a community complain that there aren’t enough shadchanim and the singles in the commuity aren’t properly serviced, then perhaps we should do some soul searching.
And maybe as a result more people would become shadhcanim and thus the singles would be better off.
as for your argument re: rebbeim and moras, as in any field, there are highly qualified and less qualfied peole. and Shadhcanus is not different.
shadchanus is the one field that (in the circles i travel) there seems to be a serious dearth of people for the singles to turn to to assist them in getting married.
I have yet to hear of a yeshiva/day school etc that had a teaching opening and simply couldn’t find people to fill it.
I haven’t heard of schools waiting months and months to fill a vacancy.
so apparently, for whatever the reason might be, it does seem like far more people relative to the community need in our community are willing and able to be educators than they are to be shadchanim.
(i wholeheartedly agree, that if educators would receive salaries like lawyers then we would likely find ourselves with a higher caliber educator, but this is a discussion for a different time).February 9, 2014 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #1003347
not quite sure what your comment has to do with this discussion. For whatever the reason is, we have sufficient rebbeim/moras to cater to our communities needs. Yet, we don’t have sufficient shadchanim.
I’m simply suggesting a obvious reason as to why we don’t have sufficient edcuators, and a reasonable course of action how to rectify it.February 9, 2014 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #1003348thinkingoutloud91Member
Well put.February 9, 2014 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #1003349
AZ – I guess it is apples and oranges then. We have gone months without appropriate teachers when a vacancy came up and different substitutes would fill in as needed.
When my daughter went oot to the tri state area for a chasuna, she was given a list of more than plenty shadchanim to get interviewed by. We have several local ones as well. I never thought of there being a shortage.
I have found though, and this may be a completely tangential topic, that many of the shadchanim are “not interested” in helping you if you don’t want to do things the way “everyone else” is doing them. Meaning, if you can’t afford to give monthly support and are looking for someone like minded, some shadchanim aren’t interested in helping you find your bashert. There are many different kinds of people out there and the shadchanim should be willing to make matches of all these types (unless they are in a highly homogenous area) if their goal is to help singles, shouldn’t they? But we have had shadchanim literally screaming at some girls for being who they are instead of “playing the game” as it was put. I DO agree that that is the road for some, but there are so many like minded people who need something else, still well within the yeshivish-ish crowd, and I wonder why they don’t deserve advocates as well.
For myself, I don’t buy things that I can’t pay for, and if you tell me it will cost me $3000 for a shadchan, I will have no choice but to resort to word of mouth to marry off my children, not because I don’t value the shadchan, but because I apparently am not worthy of the privilege.
I do believe that your respectful and clear responses on this thread have given people a better sense that there are decent people out there who really are in it for the klal. Thank you for that.February 9, 2014 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #1003350
I just thought of a related question – if you are a shadchan and you have an idea for a shidduch, but they tell you they cannot afford a shadchan and will need to go through common friends/relatives instead, will you withold the names from that couple? If you won’t be fully involved and receiving full time shadchanus, will you still give them the names so that they can try to pursue it themselves?
***This is assuming there is NO detriment to your reputation and you will still get credit for the couple (with an appropriate affordable gift).February 9, 2014 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #1003351
I’m simply suggesting a obvious reason as to why we don’t have sufficient edcuators, and a reasonable course of action how to rectify it. “
And I respectfully disagree with that statement. I do not agree that we have insufficient numbers of educators (good ones may be in short supply, but there is no lack of bochurim intending to go that route). What you are saying is not likely, because so many bochurim believe that this is what they will be when the finish kollel. Ask Kollel boys what their plan is for the future. So many will say “Chinuch.”
As to shadchanim. There is no lack of shadchanim either. Everyone and his second cousin think they can be a shadchan (they are mistaken). A lack of GOOD shadchanim – well that is another story entirely. I agree there. BTW, I have no chashash on your temimus in this area, AZ. I believe you speak from the heart and try really hard to do the best for your clients as you can. I just do not agree with some of your opinions.February 9, 2014 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #1003352
I was reading the Flatbush Jewish Journal this Shabbos, and had to laugh out loud when I read the Ask the Shadchan Column. It was illustrative of how parents can potentially sabotage their children’s shidduchim before they even begin. The parent, I presume, mom, writing the letter was disturbed because the boy wanted NOT to go through the shadchan to make the call to arrange the date, but to speak to the girl himself! Horrors!!!! The mom was sufficiently bothered by this and it caused such agita, that she felt compelled to address this awful breach of frum etiquette, in a shadchan column forum.
To her credit, the shadchan told the parent there was nothing wrong with this, it is how we did things in decades past. BTW, the daughter had NO problem with this – it was all coming from the parent. Can you imagine if this guy is perfect for her daughter and the mother would refuse to allow the shidduch for such a reason?????
We need to stop infantilizing our children. If they are old enough to be in shidduchim, they are old enough to make and receive phone calls from people trying to date them. They are likewise old enough to say to their date if they do NOT wish to go forward in the shidduch, rather than put the onus on the shadchan to so their dirty work for them.
People get turned down in many areas of their lives every day. They don’t get hired for a job, they don’t get picked for a team, they don’t get called on in class every time they know the answer. This is part of life, and the sooner our kids understand that rejection inevitably happens to all of us at some point, the sooner they will be able to deal with it in shidduchim, as well. We are treating our children, not as the grownups they are supposed to be, but as the immature tykes we still believe them to be.February 10, 2014 2:02 am at 2:02 am #1003353
DY: You liker going in circles. I get dizzy, so I am getting off at this stop. You wrote. “Shulchan Aruch should be sufficient.” I agree, the shulchan aruch and its commentaries thoroughly cover the halachos regarding contracts, written and oral. They should be utilized in this area as well.February 10, 2014 2:07 am at 2:07 am #1003354
Oomis, since you read the FJJ this week, perhaps you saw the letter to the editor signed by the 19 yr old girl in shidduchim. she articulated exactly what you said from the perspective of the girls who are expected to be the marriage partners of these boys.
SYAG: harbe shluchim lamakom. if the bas kol called out bas ploni liploni, it doesnt matter what this shadchan or that friend or neighbor thinks, says or does.February 10, 2014 2:10 am at 2:10 am #1003355
I get dizzy, so I am getting off at this stop.
lolFebruary 10, 2014 3:01 am at 3:01 am #1003356
curious, do you plan on having your friends cook the food for the wedding and holding in the back yard?
I’m just suggesting, it’s all a matter of priorites.
if it was me, i’d much faster skimp on the caterer band flowers hall etc,
but do whatever i could to give my child the best chance to find a shidduch.
but that’s just me….
(I’m sure APY would simply have their child sit at home and not go on dates, because after all bas ploni l’ploni and Hashem is mizaveg zivugim. I have no doubt that APY does nothing for parnassah either, because we know that hashem arranges for our parnassah as well).
But for the rest of us mere mortals who understand our responsibilities to do our best within reason….
Sure i’d try word of mouth, but i’d also reach out to as many shadchanim as i could and i’d make them a very fair offer….
Syag- from some of what you write, it sounds like shadchanim owe it to the community to act in a certain way cater to certain kinds of girls, whom they should advocate for etc…
and i’m sorry to say, a shadchan really owes nothing to anyone (of course they must be honest) but i’m referring to in terms of whom they should try to set up etc…
we can’t have it both ways, treat them like dirt, take advantage of them , and then expect them to be at our beck and call, just because we want them to be at our beck and call.
That’s really all i’m trying to convey thru this thread.February 10, 2014 3:31 am at 3:31 am #1003357
curious, do you plan on having your friends cook the food for the wedding and holding in the back yard?
I’m just suggesting, it’s all a matter of priorites.
if it was me, i’d much faster skimp on the caterer band flowers hall etc,
but do whatever i could to give my child the best chance to find a shidduch.
but that’s just me….
AZ – ouch, that was very painful but I will answer anyway and suffer the embarrassment of those who know me. I’m glad you have the luxury of ‘setting priorities’ and giving your daughters that which some of us aren’t so fortunate to afford. I didn’t have flowers or alcohol because I couldn’t afford them. Do you want to know what else I couldn’t afford? a photographer. So I asked a relative who was a retired photographer for a favor. I had buffet because we paid less waiters that way, I couldn’t afford a full staff. Want to know what else I lived without because I couldn’t afford it or are you willing to accept that some people just aren’t who you think they are? And my wedding was beautiful anyway. And I DO have priorities.
I don’t think any shadchan owes me or anyone else anything. But if you want to say their job is to work with singles, than they should be working with singles. If they are only planning on servicing a specific niche, than it is a business, and they should treat it as one. You can’t have it both ways.
And I sure hope you weren’t referring to me when you said I treat them like dirt and want them at my beck and call, I said nothing of the sort.February 10, 2014 3:35 am at 3:35 am #1003358
Even though I have agreed with most of what you say (until this more hurtful post), I disagree with your attitude towards APY’s bitachon. My husband and I have lived our lives according to what needs to be done to give our children a bayis neeman, even when it meant turning down jobs and living on nothing until the one best for my family came around. Somehow Hashem has filled in all the gaps. If there is a shadchan out there who is willing to work with “someone like me”, then great, but from your description it sounds like that would be asking too much. So I can’t forgo the shadchan, but I can’t ask them to look for someone appropriate for our child. That leaves me no place to look but Up. And not by my choice.
If you are a shadchan who will not set up singles unless they fit specific criteria and pay certain fees, who do YOU believe the rest of us should go to?February 10, 2014 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #1003360
I apologize, i was not referring to you specifically. How could I? i of course have no idea what your personal situation is and it’s certainly not for me to judge anyone.
BUT as a community we somehow find funds to make weddings even simple ones, and yet the shadchanim are handed token payments.
(yes- i consider even the current going rate of 1000-1500 to be a token payment, when taking into account the work that goes into the process of being a shadchan as well as how much money is spent in other clearly less important areas of wedding expenses.)
As for shadchanim, there are shadchanim for all types, BUT the shadchanim are simply overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of singles of all types that need their attention.
so, they are simply incapable of responding/catering to every singles one who reaches out to them.
Hence my suggestion, that the community would do well to encourage more people to consider and stay active as shadchanim.
And thus people like you describe would have more places to turn.
and one of the best ways of doing so, is if being a shadchan somehow was fiscally feasibile, which currently it just isn’t.
As for your question, what you could do specifically for your child, i will suggest something that i have found to be very effective. it’s something that i’ve done and encourage others to do and it works.
Reach out to shadchanim who work with the kinds of boys that are appropriate for your child, and make them a very fair offer should they get your child to a date #2/ date #4. It is a very cost effective method of generating quality shidduch attention for your child.
By doing so you are letting them know that you genuinely appreciate their efforts and that their efforts will be we rewarded. Shadchanim can’t gurantee to get your child engaged, but if they choose to work your child, they can get them dates and that is a very effective way to get your child to the chuppah.
For the record, as I’ve stated numerous times in the past, i am not a shadchan.February 10, 2014 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #1003361
You’re right, you couldn’t have known. But your biting remarks indicated that you made assumptions. And I think that has been MY point all along.February 10, 2014 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #1003362
AZ, some of your post was really not worthy of the intelligent and earnest person I believe you to be.February 10, 2014 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #1003363
“(I’m sure APY would simply have their child sit at home and not go on dates, because after all bas ploni l’ploni and Hashem is mizaveg zivugim. I have no doubt that APY does nothing for parnassah either, because we know that hashem arranges for our parnassah as well).”
If you define hishtadlus as running to every shadchan who hangs a shingle, those who dont know you from adam, grasping at every straw as befits a desperate human being, then you are right, I did not put in the proper hishtadlus when it came to my own shidduch, and I will not put in the proper histadlus into marrying off my children.
The clever marketing campaigns that breed and feed the mass hysteria that surrounds shidduchim these days is what makes people do stupid things when it comes to shidduchim, including treating shadchanim like trash. Desperate people do stupid desperate things. Those who know there is a ribbono shel olam in this world do not buy into the hype and hysteria.February 10, 2014 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #1003364
“how much money is spent in other clearly less important areas of wedding expenses.”
In truth, here is where AZ is right. The role of the shadchan has evolved from one of facilitating a meeting between a boy and a girl to one of pinkerton detective, babysitter, mother, shrink, ego booster, ego massager, whipping boy and this is all before the boy even says yes to agree to see a girl. Once that happens, the process repeats itself to some degree depending on how desperate the girls side is. Then, the shadchan must play telephone tag to arrange a meeting between the two and again after the meeting to see how each side wants to proceed, and then the game starts again. Of course, by then, a different Pinkerton detective has uncovered some whiff of an allegation that the girl may have been a bed wetter until she was 4 years old and she may have sucked her thumb well into her 1st grade year resulting in further investigations, research and analysis, further delaying a possible second meeting. By the time it is agreed to, both sides dont even remember the 1st meeting. This process intensifies if this progresses to a third, fourth or a fifth meeting. By this time, half the Pinkerton agency has done some work on this shidduch, the shadchan has a dossier 75 pages thick on each person, another 45 pages on the family and even a 125 page magnum opus on the elte bubbes from Vilna and Riga down the peddler they both purchased their tichels from.
Now, a crack team of investigators is surely entitled to the going rate that any licensed PI firm makes in a particular region. I’m sure a quick search on monster.com will yield the going rate for this industry. Either we pay the Pinkertons, er shadchanim, their proper due, or we go back to the way shidduchim used to be done. A shadchan propsed female a, for male b. If their Rav, Rebbe, Rosh Yeshiva, neighbor or other trustworthy yid said they were fine upstanding yidden, the shidduch was considered. shadchan would give the male the phone number for female, tell him to call tuesday between 9 and 11 and that was it. Until we go back to the sensible way of doing things, $1500 to a shadchan for a shidduch is a bargain.
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