Is there a tactful way to say Shadchan prefers money?

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Is there a tactful way to say Shadchan prefers money?

Viewing 50 posts - 101 through 150 (of 202 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1003261
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Of course it has, and will, and when you make a simcha, b’sha’h tovah, you’ll do the necessary research to find out what it is at that time.”

    OK. I took the bait. I asked my Rav who married off a child in the last 12 months. I asked him point blank, what is the halachicly specified going rate to give to a shadchan in OUR community. He answered that to the best of his knowledge, there is no halachicly set rate. He said he asked his own Rav who told him that he gets the sense that there is a going range, but no specific set rate, so, absent any prior agreed upon amount, and depending on ones financial situation they should use their seichel whether to give from the lower end of the range or from the higher.

    “Thats an amazing idea. Work on it!”

    I’m not “the rabbonim”, or a member of said group. Nor am I a shadchan with any vested interest in such a takana being created. Apparantly the Rabbonim see no need to institute such a takana either. so, I throw it back to the whining shadchanim to work on it, if they feel it is needed.

    #1003262

    Logician – thank you. I read your posts to be contradictory but I hear you saying they aren’t and fully accept that. I cannot retract my comment that you have posted more than once though, you posted once on the first page and once on this one (before my post) 🙂

    I now see that my confusion came from your comment “x2 to frimet”, which I took to mean you agreed with her (I thought you meant +2), but now I am assuming you were referring to the beginning of your post.

    apushatayid – good for you! Was your rav saying that halacha actually dictates that you can use your financial state to make your choice within the range? I guess it isn’t irrelevant after all.

    #1003263
    oomis
    Participant

    This thread has totally convinced me that the way my married kids met their zivugim, was far and away superior to what is going on in the shidduch world today. They went to the same college, met each other in class or in the kosher cafeteria among a frum group of friends, and got to know each other as friends before dating, while in that frum chevra. No shadchanim, no shadchanus, no interference, and no problems. The “going rate” from one person’s standpoint, might be absolutely prohibitive from someone else’s. Should the poor girl or boy not be redt shidduchim? MAybe we should plan it that way. A-list Shadchanim for the wealthy, the B class of Shadchanim for the poorer families, and C-class (AKA “Candy-dishers”) for the ones who cannot afford virtually anything.

    #1003264

    Apy, I would hope you’d tell us what the range is. I stated the fact that it’s a range at the beginning of the thread.

    Is there a tactful way to say Shadchan prefers money?

    I guess it isn’t irrelevant after all.

    I think it is mostly irrelevant. Al pi shuras hadin, a rich person can also choose to give the lower end of the range.

    #1003265

    Al pi shuras hadin, a rich person can also choose to give the lower end of the range.

    not without the shadchan having a hissy fit 😛

    #1003266

    If anything, Oomis, the fact that the halachos of shadchanus have been discussed by the poskim for generations tells me that the way you described is not according to the Jewish tradition.

    #1003267

    not without the shadchan having a hissy fit 😛

    Depends on the shadchan. I, even as an impartial observer, would consider that cheap, so, to clarify, I would agree that in terms of mentchlichkeit, it’s certainly relevant.

    #1003268
    AZ
    Participant

    No different than if one hires a plumber or electrician and doesn’t make up ahead of time.

    Al Pi Halacha the homeowner is obligated to pay the going rate and if their is a range the homeowner is within their rights to pay the low end of the going rate.

    What i think some of the posters are having difficulty grasping (myself among them) is why this discussion seems to always center around shadchanim and not plumbers/electricians/dentists etc….. who provide a service and don’t state up front their charges.

    Surely if shadchanim stated a fee upfront this would alleviate this issue, but their reason for not doing so, is because it is their perception that by doing so they would be looked upon askance by a community who that has unfair expectations of them.

    (just look at some of the posts in this thread, and i think we can agree that those comments would never be made expected of plumbers/electricians etc).

    The overwhelming vast majority of shadchanim (even the full timers) don’t look at themselves as in shidduchim for parnassah-although if they don’t end up with some kind of a parnassah for their effrots they obviously won’t able to continue to devote the immense time and commitment that it requires- and thus they are uncomfortable stating fees upfront.

    However, that in no way shape or form changes the obligation to compensate them according to the going rate.

    If the broader communities attitude was that shadchanim should be and deserve to be properly and fairly compensated I think it would be more likely that we would have shadchanim feeling comfortable stating or letting it be known their expectations up front.

    but we are far from that point…..

    For the record i am not a shadchan.

    #1003269
    oomis
    Participant

    Any shadchan who does not state his/her fee upfront, IMO does so deliberately, knowing it will be a turnoff to many people (because the fee is probably excessive). It is improper to make a shidduch and THEN hit someone with an outrageous fee that is the so-called “going rate.” I wouldn’t pay ANYONE to do work for me, without knowing the estimated cost in advance.

    #1003270
    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    This WHINING Shadchan together with many other WHINING Shadchanim often deals with difficult people and difficult situations, including FFB, Gerim and BTs, trying to offer a kind word that softens the pain and lightens the load of singles and parents, and to the best of their ability, tries finding life mates for them, with the knowledge that they generally dont get more than one successful Shidduch for every 100 serious attempts, if that, and get nothing monetary or otherwise, except for the Mitzvah B”H, for attempts.

    Thank you. Im done here.

    #1003271

    Oomis, you have a right to ask for their fee up front, but you do not have a right to bend the halacha to your wishes, and according to halacha, they are not obligated to tell you their fee in advance.

    #1003272
    AZ
    Participant

    oomis: the one error in you post is “IMO” as what you write is against codified halacha, your opinion doesn’t really matter on the issue.

    Perhaps what you don’t know is that even after the shidduch is completed the overwhelming vast majority of shadchanim don’t state a fee.

    The discussion is simply what are the two sides obligated to give under the circumstances. If a shadchan completes a shidduch and if (as is the common case) that no set amount of shadchanus was agreed upon, then how much must each side pay.

    just like if one calls a plumber or a electrician and no fee is agreed upon prior to the work, the plumber or electrician is certainly entitled to get paid after the job is completed. and his pay will be determined by the going rate. (if the service provider provides a rate that is within the range of the going rate and they can substantiate that such a fee is that specific service providers standard fee, the halacha might be that he is supposed to get that as opposed to the homeowner stating i will only pay the low end of the range. of this i am not certain, and one should ask a qualified poseik).

    And if the shadchan does state a fee -after the fact- that is beyond the range of the standard practice in the given community, or even if the shadchan requests a specific end of the range, the shadchan’s stated fee is irrelevant, UNLESS it was well known what that shadchan’s fee was.

    In such a case the two parties who used that shadchan are al pi halacha considered to have agreed to the fee of that shadchan being that it is well known, even if the shadchan didn’t tell them specifically and (i think the following is correct althought i’m not positive) even if the actual parties claim and or actually were unaware of that shadchan’s fee.

    however this kind of case is not common. As the reality is that shadchanim don’t state fees ahead of time, and the overwhelming majority of them don’t state fees after the fact either. They rely on the parties to (hopefully) do what is right and proper and the shadchanim probably hope that the parties will be even a bit generous.

    I for one would wish (as i think yo would) for it to become standardized that shadchanim state up front what the “fees” are if a couple gets engaged. However the overwhelming vast majority do not do so, and their reason for not doing so comes from “aidelkeit” not from a cruel plan to hold up the sides.

    In fact, if the (horrible/mean/money hungry) shadchan wanted to pressure the sides to “milk” the most shadchanus they could, the worst time to do so is after the shidduch is completed. At that point in time the shadchan has no leverage. Their best leverage is when the singles come to meet them initially, but as stated above, shadchanim don’t do so because they aren’t comfortable doing so, and the primary reason they aren’t comfortable doing so should be self evident from the way shadchanim are perceived in these posts.

    #1003273
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Their best leverage is when the singles come to meet them initially,”

    Let them use it. Plumbers and electricians do.

    “but as stated above, shadchanim don’t do so because they aren’t comfortable doing so,”

    As are many new plumbers and electricians, and they end up in disputes with their customers as well.

    One can not expect to deal with people throughout a process that can take months and months, as as advisor, a friend and confidant and then suddenly at the end of the process it is suddenly a business. If it is a business transaction as codified in halacha, then let a contract, written or oral, be drawn up upon commencement of services. Both sides will stipulate what is expected from the other, and this way there will be no misunderstandings.

    #1003274
    apushatayid
    Participant

    there you go again. stop whining. if you dont like what you do, stop doing it.

    #1003275

    apushatayid- +1.

    #1003276

    If it is a business transaction as codified in halacha, then let a contract, written or oral, be drawn up

    Why do you say “if”?

    And why does halacha suddenly stop when it comes to a contract? Halacha does not require it. It’s in the realm of eitzah tovah, and it’s not an eitzah tovah.

    there you go again. stop whining. if you dont like what you do, stop doing it.

    Is that what you want, fewer shadchanim? Who says he doesn’t like doing it? He doesn’t like being underappreciated. Nobody does.

    #1003277

    I don’t think there is any way to make this understood by those who aren’t interested in understanding-

    nobody is saying we shouldn’t have shadchanim or that they shouldn’t be paid according to halacha. The comments are VERY CLEARLY in regard to shadchanim who whine and display poor middos, thinking that they can look down their noses at those who THEY PERCEIVE to have slighted them. IF YOU ARE NOT SOMEONE WHO DOES THAT, THEN WE WEREN’T TALKING ABOUT YOU!!!

    #1003278
    apushatayid
    Participant

    1: You assume to much. “If” was not meant as you assumed it to be, therefore your question is moot.

    2: Yes, it was an eitza tova on my part, in fact I would go further and state that based on the current feedback from shadchanim they should make it a requirement.

    3: Again, your assumptions. Why do you maintain that he feels under appreciated and not merely under compensated?

    Truth be told, I personally believe if we had less whining shadchanim, that would be a good thing. Hashem will find other ways to bring people together. Harbey shluchim lamakom.

    #1003280

    Is that what you want, fewer shadchanim?

    I understand what you meant by that, but to even ask such a question, as if you are threatening that we will have less zivugim without them, speaks for itself. Though shadchanim work excessively on facilitating shidduchim, I believe it to be a tremendous lack of understanding of Hashem’s abilities to think that He cannot make zivugim without them.

    #1003281

    I understand what you meant by that

    Are you sure? What do think I meant?

    Hashem can also fix my leaky sink all by himself if He wants. Does that justify insulting plumbers?

    #1003282
    oomis
    Participant

    Oomis, you have a right to ask for their fee up front, but you do not have a right to bend the halacha to your wishes, and according to halacha, they are not obligated to tell you their fee in advance. “

    DY, would you hire a contractor under the same premise? I do not advocate bending the Halacha to suit my wishes, but I think there is an inyan of gneivas daas when you are not told in advance what to reasonably expect. A shadchan could charge ANYTHING then, after the fact. Who hires someone without some reasonable expectation of what it will cost him? And what reputable person in any other field does not state from the outset what to expect to be charging the person hiring him? I never heard of such a thing. Is it ok to do that just because it is a SHADCHAN????

    And AZ, if you only found ONE error in my post, I am already ahead of the game!!! 🙂

    #1003283
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Does that justify insulting plumbers?”

    Does it justify plumbers whining every chance they get about how underpaid they believe they are?

    #1003284

    oomis- there is actually one field that is pretty similar regarding payment. Teenage babysitters. Few will tell you over the phone how much they charge, but if you pay them less than the going rate they will be rightfully upset. The rates keep changing, and it’s important for people hiring sitters to keep up with the current rate.

    #1003285

    DY, would you hire a contractor under the same premise?

    No. But I would a shadchan, because they can only expect the going rate, not more.

    I think there is an inyan of gneivas daas when you are not told in advance what to reasonably expect.

    You can think what you want, but that’s not the halacha.

    A shadchan could charge ANYTHING then, after the fact.

    Also untrue. That error explains much of your misunderstanding of the entire issue.

    #1003286

    Does it justify plumbers whining every chance they get about how underpaid they believe they are?

    They aren’t, so why would they whine?

    FTR, the OP didn’t whine until getting bashed from all sides for simply expressing a desire to get paid what is owed al pi din.

    #1003287
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    DaasYochid,

    Avram, do you have evidence that AZ’s numbers are not correct? If not, you should not be jumping on the OP for inflating them.

    You’re right. It was not my intention to accuse AZOI.IS (or his/her relative) of inflating the rate paid to the shadchan. I was primarily responding to the OP’s second and subsequent posts, which gave me the impression that there was a disconnect regarding what the OP thought the rate was and what most people were actually paying. I am not from the tri-state area and do not even know 10 people from the area, so I cannot take a poll as requested; but if the rabbonim in the community hold that the rates are in a range between $500 and $1500, then there is no argument. G-d willing when my children are set to marry, I will not forget to speak to my rav regarding my obligations to the shadchan and I plan to settle things according to halacha.

    AZOI.IS,

    I apologize for responding so strongly in this thread. I think what really bothered me was this statement:

    Just wondering, do poor people feel they dont have to pay Shadchanus

    Lo siyeh lo k’noshe – don’t act [towards a poor person] as a creditor.

    Your relative definitely deserves compensation for his/her services, but on issues regarding how the Jewish people borrow and repay, it pays to tread carefully.

    #1003288

    FTR, the OP didn’t whine until getting bashed from all sides for simply expressing a desire to get paid what is owed al pi din.

    FTR, the whining started in the OP and his second post. The displeasure with his/their bad attitude was in response to it. And although you still would rather not believe it, the complaints were not about his “simply expressing a desire to get paid what is owed al pi din” it was his attitude and portrayal that shadchanim are free to look down on people.

    #1003289

    Avram, thank you. I don’t think there’s a bigger mentch in the CR (maybe not in MD either).

    I’ve been wondering what set everyone off about the OP, and maybe you’ve hit upon it, but I don’t think you have to read that comment the way you did.

    Is the OP really saying that he would stalk a poor person for shadchanus? I don’t think so.

    What would you do if you were in a position to pay a shadchan (may that happen at the proper time), but couldn’t afford it (may you in fact be able to afford generous shadchanus b’ravchus)?

    After asking a shaila, let’s say you were told that you owe a minimum of $750. I’ll tell you what I think you would do. You would ask the shadchan if he could please accept shadchanus on a payment plan, as you really can’t afford it right now. Or, you might even request that he accept a candy dish

    as a token of your great appreciation and please be moichel the rest. If this happened to the OP(‘s relative?), I have no reason to think he would have started a thread in the CR.

    I’ll also tell you what you would not do. You would not try to unilaterally pattur yourself from a $750 chov with a $17.95 candy dish from Amazing Savings (or whatever they have in MD).

    This is what the OP thought was being done (I think he might have been wrong about that), and writing his question in an anonymous forum in no way violates lo sihyeh lo k’nosheh.

    #1003290
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Gamanit,

    Teenage babysitters. Few will tell you over the phone how much they charge,

    My wife always asks a potential babysitter what her rate is beforehand, and will offer a rate if the babysitter responds that she doesn’t have one. Similarly, my plumber will give me a range before starting work; “It looks like you’ll need this, which costs around $350, but if I get in there and find that such and such is broken, we’ll need to replace the whole thing and that will run up to $850…” My auto mechanic always calls with an estimate before beginning work on my car. I can look up each dental procedure my dentist recommends to figure out its cost beforehand as well.

    Despite the fact that a shadchan deserves payment as much as a babysitter, plumber, mechanic, and dentist, for some reason, it seems culturally more acceptable for the latter professions to state rates beforehand. In other words, a plumber would never have to start a CR thread asking for a polite way to request money instead of a gift for services rendered. Maybe this is what should change. If there is a significant problem with shadchanim not being paid appropriately, then perhaps community rabbis can be asked to highlight the halacha when addressing their communities, or be sure to mention the common rate when speaking to a family making a wedding.

    #1003291

    Syag, see my post to Avram. I don’t read the OP’s second post, and certainly not the first, as whining. I think what happened here was very wrong. There’s a very real issur of ona’as d’vorim, even on the internet, and although I don’t know if being dan l’kaf z’chus applies to an anonymous poster, it would have saved some from feeling the need to bash the OP.

    Why do you think the OP came here to vent, instead of confronting the mechutan? I’ll tell you why, probably because he was uncomfortable causing machlokes. In return, he gets a bunch of posters reading in to his posts something he never (IMO) meant, and unfairly insulting him, which he never did. I think a few posters owe the OP an apology.

    #1003292

    DY – your last two posts are filled with statements based on what you know the OP meant. interesting.

    #1003293
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    DaasYochid,

    Thank you for your brachos, kind words and patient responses. You are also one of my favorite posters in the CR, both because of the extensive knowledge that you contribute, and also because of the sensitivity you show towards all posters in your efforts to allay misunderstandings.

    I agree that part of the maelstrom that this thread has become may have originated from misunderstandings on both sides. I can reread the OP and subsequent posts as concern for a relative and halacha, and the responses (me included) largely zeroed in on perceptions of a negative attitude towards the poor or lower paying that may not have been there.

    The other misunderstanding may have arisen from the OP’s categorizing the “candy dish” gift giving as the giver’s attempt to patur himself from the mitzvah of paying the shadchan. I wouldn’t necessarily assume that because a person is FFB he knows this halacha, and even if he did, knows what the set amount is. Obviously in the latter case the person should have asked a shaila, but the solution is more complex for the former case. The fact that shadchanim are hesitant to ask for money for their services in of itself is very telling about the state of knowledge in this area. E.g., since everybody knows a plumber needs to be paid for his services, the plumber is not shy about addressing payment.

    #1003294

    Not what I know, what I think.

    To justifiably attack the OP, you would have to know that the OP meant something harmful. I don’t think it’s fair to attack on a safek.

    If you don’t think my (and I believe Logician’s) reading is at least reasonable, I can’t help you, yet I still don’t think the insults of calling the OP a whiner, lacking middos, and not commiserating with poverty, are justified and free of the issue of ona’as d’vorim. Don’t you agree?

    #1003295

    Avram, thank you.

    The other misunderstanding may have arisen from the OP’s categorizing the “candy dish” gift giving as the giver’s attempt to patur himself from the mitzvah of paying the shadchan.

    I hear that. I think that in the yeshiva world, it is well known that shadchanus gelt is a chiyuv, but less so in less yeshivish circles, which likely contributes to AZ’s observation that standard shadchanus in less yeshivish circles is lower.

    So yes, maybe the OP should have been dan l’kaf z’chus that the mechutan didn’t know. In fairness, he did word that part of his comment as general, “Just wondering, do poor people feel they dont have to pay Shadchanus and are patur with a candy dish, etc?”, although the next part, “Although Ive heard from a well knwn Shadchan that they got less from their wealthy Shidduchim and more from their Shidduchim involving people who dont have any money.” would indicate that he felt this particular mechutan was being stingy.

    So I can hear a sense that the OP was subtly calling this mechutan stingy, but in no way can I feel that attacks on him for a subtle, possibly unintentional, hint, are justified.

    #1003296
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “because they can only expect the going rate, not more.”

    Still, nobody here has stated what the “going rate” is. Sure, everyone can ask their Rav. If their Rav tells them $450 and the shadchan reasonably expected $950 what then.

    #1003297

    Still, nobody here has stated what the “going rate” is.

    Actually, AZ has.

    Is there a tactful way to say Shadchan prefers money?

    You asked your Rav; what did he say?

    If their Rav tells them $450 and the shadchan reasonably expected $950 what then.

    Do you want to know realistically, or theoretically?

    Realistically, the vast majority, if not all, shadchanim will probably accept the money and say, “thank you”.

    Theoretically, the shadchan can bring the mechutan to an arbitrator or beis din, who will determine whose idea of the going rate is accurate. A Baal din’s rav can’t impose his psak on the other baal din unless he agrees to accept him as arbiter.

    #1003298
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Theoretically, the shadchan can bring the mechutan to an arbitrator or beis din, who will determine whose idea of the going rate is accurate.”

    So, to avoid the bickering and potential bad blood, why not do it now. “Askanim” run to rabbonim to get their signatures on everything else, why not a going rate?

    #1003299

    to avoid the bickering and potential bad blood

    As I said, I don’t think it actually happens.

    #1003300
    oomis
    Participant

    Daas Yachid, I would tend to believe that most people do not think it is ever a good ideas to hire someone for any service without having at least a ballpark figure idea of what it will cost them. I don’t care WHAT the service is. And I seriously doubt that Halacha expects people to fork over “the going rate” for said service, if it might impoverish them. Lest you think that is hyperbole on my part, I assure you that were I to need to pay $1,000-$2,000 per child to a shadchan today, I would not be able to do so. So I guess my daughters will have to find some other way to meet their basherter.

    #1003301

    das Yochid ..

    its called peoples opinions

    I never realized that acc. to halacha you have to pay the shadchan.

    quite frankly I was involved in someones shidduch recently and didnt realize how much work it is.

    but I dont expect 1000.00 from each side. its nice. but thats not the reason why to make a shidduch. If its all about the cash – how do you know that the shadchan is doing everything to make sure that this potential marriage goes smoothly.- that e/t is ‘according to the books’

    #1003302

    also what about being paid in the next world? does that not mean anything anymore?

    #1003303

    Daas Yachid, I would tend to believe that most people do not think it is ever a good ideas to hire someone for any service without having at least a ballpark figure idea of what it will cost them.

    So ask. Nobody said you can’t do research in advance. You can even ask the shadchan if you want, but you just can’t have taynas if after the fact, the shadchan expects the minimum within the going range.

    I don’t care WHAT the service is. And I seriously doubt that Halacha expects people to fork over “the going rate” for said service, if it might impoverish them.

    Ok, so you think I’m lying, and so is AZ, and so are the two lengthly articles quoted in the thread?

    I assure you that were I to need to pay $1,000-$2,000 per child to a shadchan today, I would not be able to do so.

    I have two answers for that, and you might think they’re contradictory, but they’re not. The first answer is that you can certainly ask the shadchan to consider your financial situation. As I mentioned earlier, you can even ask the shadchan their fee up front, and tell them tat you can only afford x amount. If you stipulate in advance, you can make that candy dish perfectly halachically acceptable.

    The second answer may sound a bit cynical, but I ask sincerely: if you can’t afford the $1000 for the shadchan, how do you expect to pay for a wedding, which costs tens of thousands of dollars?

    So I guess my daughters will have to find some other way to meet their basherter.

    Either way, may it be b’karov!

    Very slightly edited

    #1003304
    AZ
    Participant

    to thinking out loud:

    I just wonder why people don’t ask other service providers

    “if its all about the cash – how do you know that the service provider is doing everything to make sure that this service and resulting effects of service provided goes smoothly.- that e/t is ‘according to the books'”

    “also what about being paid in the next world? does that not mean anything anymore?”

    Why is it that our community has this attitude with regards to shadchanim but not plumbers/electricians/doctors/lawyers/therapists/tutors etc etc…

    As you pointed yourself, the extensive amount of time that gets spent on just one shidduch. Imagine if you were busy with redding tens of shidduchim.

    Is it any wonder why there are so few shadchanim to turn to?

    If it any wonder that we hear the common refrain from the singles that they can’t get through to shadhchanim and the shadchanim saying they are simply bombarded and can’t possibly cater to all comers. (obviously a sign of to few providers to serve the communal need)

    why is it that we have plenty of doctors/lawyers/electricians/plumbers/therapists etc etc

    but with regards to shadchanim there are simply not enough to serve the communities needs.

    I think we can all rest assured, that IF shadchanus was a reasonably profitable venture, then we would see plenty of people use it as a respectable means of supporting their families.

    The reality is, that it isn’t, and that is a prime reason why many young talented shadchanim leave the “field” simply because their familial responsibilities requires that they use their time and talents to provide for their families- something that shadchanus didn’t seem likely to be able to do for them.

    so who lost out?

    them- no. They went into other fields and are supporting their families, and they no doubt with find other venues for doing various chassodim.

    the community loses out when talented/capable shadchanim leave the field.

    Perhaps WHEN we as a community sees to it that that be the case, that shadchanim are compensated as any other service provider, in a manner that can enable them to provide for their families, THEN we will also have plenty of shadchanim. Just like we have plenty of all other service providers.

    (side note: i personally do NOT think the effective method of compensating shadchanim is 1000-1500 for completed shidduchim. YES that is the norm in many circles, but i believe that isn’t sufficient to keep shadchanim in business. And i think the proof is in the pudding, because even in the circles where 1000-1500 shadchanus is very common, their are simply not nearly enough people who are able to dedicate themselves to being shadchanim to properly serve the communal need, and instead they find other ways to provide for their families.

    I think to make it work on the communal level, one of two things would need to be commonplace.

    either standard shadchanus from each side should be in 4000-5000 range. That would enable shadchanim who put in the time and effort and make 7/8 shidduchim a year (which is about normal for the typical very busy shadchan who spends basically their day/night weekday/weekend redding shidduchim) and in cases of difficult shidduchim (one good measure of difficulty is the infrequency the now engaged singles had been getting set up prior to the current shidduch), the shadchanus should be commensurately higher.

    Just like it is in any other service provider situation- that the compensation is commesurate with the degree of difficulty involved in the service provided.

    I would think that the potential parnassah of 56k-80k would be about right to encourage more talented people to join/stay in the field. These dollar amounts are surely still way below what other service providers who put in the equivalent time and effort to their practice that shadchanim do

    Alternatively (if 4k-5k per side per completed shidduch is to big a burden and it may well be-although it’s but a fraction of wedding costs and the shadchan is the most important piece of the simcha), a effective system would be be to compensate shadchanim for dates set up such as a date 2/date 4 system. In such a system the shadchan is compensated for what they can accomplish, i.e. setting up a date/ be it a decent date (date 2) or a quality date (date 4) as opposed to only compensating the shadchanim if a engagement occurs-something that is really out of the hands of the shadchan.

    Here to, the level of compensation for a date 2/ date 4 should be commensurate with the degree of difficulty in assisting the specific single to that point.

    I have no doubt, that no change will occur overnight as a result of this post- but discussion of the issue is certainly helpful.

    #1003305

    the community loses out when talented/capable shadchanim leave the field.

    Because Hashem will have all these awesome zivugim and no way to facilitate them?

    #1003306

    I would think that the potential parnassah of 56k-80k would be about right to encourage more talented people to join/stay in the field.

    You have GOT to be kidding!

    #1003307

    AZ –

    It CAN be the same – regarding Dr. , Lawyer , plumber, ect.

    Maybe in my mind having to make a whole wedding ( fancy or not still can cost an arm and a leg )

    That ‘Set price’ its just can be a burden to the family. ( like you said ) and thats actually a good Idea if it can work

    I guess shadchans are underestimated .

    also. could be from what I have heard over the years about shadchanim and the way they work I could be biased.

    okay but let me ask you if your child were to get engaged you can easily shell out 5K?

    #1003308

    okay but let me ask you if your child were to get engaged you can easily shell out 5K?

    I don’t think AZ necessarily disagrees with your point. He wrote:

    if 4k-5k per side per completed shidduch is to big a burden and it may well be

    #1003309
    AZOI.IS
    Participant

    “the community loses out when talented/capable shadchanim leave the field.”

    Syag Lchochma

    Because Hashem will have all these awesome zivugim and no way to facilitate them?

    I couldnt resist. Im gagging.

    Perhaps in the interest of budgeting, we can rid our communities of expensive Shuls and Yeshivahs. Because Hashem will accept our prayers from anywhere, and we can educate our children in Torah ways anywhere. Lets get creative here.

    #1003310

    AZOI.IS, are you reading Syag’s post as saying that we should get rid of shadchanim and go the pizza shop route? I don’t; she’s making a point about bitachon. If you want to counter with a description of the role hishtadlus plays in our actions, that’s fair. But if you think she’s advocating for hefkerus in dating, I can assure you that she’s not.

    #1003311
    AZ
    Participant

    thinking:

    i for one would think the commumnity should rethink the wedding costs and make shadchnus payment a priority (to ensure enough shadchanim enter and stay in the field)

    so if your question is do i personally have 5k laying around to spend easily- NO. Not by a long shot.

    do i think that many if not all of us could rebudget our wedding costs and household expenses to spend the money where it is most needed.

    Yes-i think a LOT could be done in the issue.

    The sense in this thread from many posters is that paying shadchanim is kind of like a afterthought. It’s what we spend leftover money on.

    I’m just wondering why that’s a acceptable attitude.

    We don’t feel that way about any other service providers, why should it be acceptable to feel that way about shadchanim. And then we wonder why we don’t have enough shadchanim in the field.

    (side note: The reason I personally prefer/recommend the date 2/ date 4 compensation system, is not because of the financial burden that 4/5 k shadchanus per side would create (though i’m sure some may disagree). That could/would be solved simply by shifting our spending priorities. If/when shadchanus was considered a primary wedding expense as it well should be, then people would cut down elsewhere.)

    To put things in perspective. Al pi halacha one requires 2 kosher witensses at the kiddushin and a total of 10 people at the chuppa. Basically every other wedding expense is “extra”. Paying the shadchan is not extra. It is obligatory. Not that 4k/5k is currently obligatory, it’s not. I’m simply showing how our wedding expenditure priorities are skewed.

    I’m not advocating a complete overhaul in weddings, but we can all be sure that if in budgeting for lchayim’s/vorts/wedding’s/apartment set up/young couple assistance etc etc. , we FIRST set aside 4k/ 5k for the shadchan AND then planned the venue, invite list, menu, clothing shopping, band, flowers etc…

    who knows, we might start complaining that all the other service providers have unreasonable expectations/demands about financial compensation etc etc…..

    And the shadchanim would be able to make a parnassha that would encourage and keep enough talented and capable shadchanim to provide for the communities needs.

Viewing 50 posts - 101 through 150 (of 202 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.