February 22, 2011 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #595232ha ha ha haMember
before i get it over my head i want to say yes i am a girl in shidduchim. i am under 21 and my friends are overcome with panick if they didn’t get a phone call for 2 weeks!!! come on!! the pressure on us is incredible!!! there is nothing wrong to get married at 20!!February 22, 2011 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #744669ronrsrMember
I think I saw a sign on this thread, “Abandon all hope, ye who post here.”February 22, 2011 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #744670i said soMember
there is absolutely nothing wrong getting married at 20 when ever u find ur zivug thats when its time to get married! no rushing if hashe wants u to get married at 21 thats when ull get married or if he wants at 18 so be it 🙂February 22, 2011 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #744671gavra_at_workParticipant
But not for girls who are 20 (yet).February 22, 2011 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #744672mikehall12382Member
there is a huge crisis, you must be married by 20…just kidding…February 22, 2011 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #744673ramateshkolianMember
define crisis. numbers. then go out and do a reliable and valid statistical study to find out if the numbers of whatever you define crisis exists. Then you will really know. until you do that, it;s all a bunch of guess work….February 22, 2011 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #744674real-briskerMember
Whats your question exactly?February 22, 2011 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #744675
Definiton of shidduch crisis:
Far far larger numbers of older girls who are still single as compared to boys.
Loose definition of “older” singles- dating 5+ years.
many girls 21 and married that’s NOT a crisis.
many girls 28 and not married, we have a problem.February 22, 2011 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #744677
Az, doesnt matter how long theyre dating. If she started going out at 17, its not a crisis when shes 21.February 22, 2011 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #744678
1. Brilliant. but they don’t start on average at 17 they start at aprox 19.
2. If it took 8 years/10 years of dating to get married that’s not a crisis either (at least i wouldn’t spend time on it) IF all girls and boys (or almost all of them) would get married in the end. The point I made is that after 5 years almost all the corrseponding boys are married and thus for many many girls there is mathematically no chance. Thus they won’t be single only at 25 but at 35 as well and at 45 and that’s a self imposed tragedy of epic proportions.February 23, 2011 12:17 am at 12:17 am #744679
Az, one “solution” to what you describe is for girls to start dating earlier. This way even if they are dating longer, they are still younger.February 23, 2011 9:36 am at 9:36 am #744680hanibParticipant
i believe, NOOOOOO!!!! unless you state that there was always a shidduch crisis. i was an older single – the year after i got married was when i first heard the term shidduch crisis coined. are there tons of single girls around? yes. and there are tons of single boys. and going out earlier and earlier and feeling desperate, etc. will not solve any problem. there are still tons and tons of girls getting married at a young age. there are simply more people so there are more older girls, but the percentages is probably still the same. further, the only way to go out properly is to recognize that Hashem has someone for you. you must be ready to get married, know what you’re looking for, do normal hishtadlus, and daven from your heart. that has always and will always be the way to find your proper zivug. i think this crazy shidduch crisis hype is causing more desparate, crazy way of dating and/or more broken engagements and marriage – because people are feeling so much pressure. the only good thing that came out of this is that people are blaming and shaming the single girls a lot less, but unfortunately, they’re attacking the single boys (and the whole “crisis” is not good for boys, because it makes them think even more that the girls are like a candy shop of which they can just choose the tastiest one, instead of also doing what needs to be done: introspection and proper dating.)February 23, 2011 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #744681TADIKMember
yes and no by the chasidim there is no crisis at allFebruary 23, 2011 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #744682
Canine: since i assume you are being facetious i won’t bother responding. if you are serious let me know.
Bina: If only you where correct. Unfourtanely the data shows that there are far far more older single girls than older single boys. and girls dating earlier and earlier excarebates teh problem. B”H progress has been made and is continuing to be made, but to write “i believe” is simply incorrecrt. Whehter or not there is a shiddcuh crisis is of faith, it’s a simple factual question based on data.
Due to the risk or incurring the ire of veteran CR members, I won’t the to discuss/debate the existence of the crisis as it has been hashed and rehashed ad nasuem. However, I am happy to discuss the various solutions being implemented succesfully albeit slowly, across north america.February 23, 2011 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #744684
isn’t that amzaing.. that by chassidim no crisis (actually there is a slight boy crisis)
hmmm i wonder why…February 23, 2011 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #744685ronrsrMember
I still say we do what our grandparents and great-grandparents did for the shidduch crisis in their time.
We contact a yeshiva in Poland, and have them send more boys over!February 23, 2011 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #744686
isn’t that amzaing.. that by chassidim no crisis (actually there is a slight boy crisis)
I think there are more boys in Chasidesher Yeshivos than girls in Chasidesher girl schools, since some Chasidissen only have Yeshivos/Mesivtos and no girl schoolFebruary 23, 2011 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #744687JamParticipant
Every guy who gets married, marries a girl. (Surprise!)
So the ratio of guys to girls getting married is 1:1
So technically speaking, there is no shidduch crises.February 23, 2011 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #744688ha ha ha haMember
i can’t agree with you more i think we forgot what real shidduchim are all about do your hishtadlus and daven daven daven. Davening is way more important then anything and we have to remember it is not us(or the shadchunim)that are making(or not making) the shidduchim it is Hashem and we have to direct ourselves to him.February 23, 2011 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #744689
So technically speaking, there is no shidduch crises.
If the 23 year old guys would marry the 35 year old girls, you’d be right.February 23, 2011 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #744690i said soMember
thats not true a 23 yr old doesnt have to marry a 35 yr old ur really wrongFebruary 23, 2011 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #744691
Ha ha ha/Bina.
hmm. I guess Hatzhala, Tomchei Shabbos, RCCS, Bonei Olam, Yad Eliezer, Hasc, etc. etc never figured out your suggestion.
“I think we forgot……. do your hishtadlus and daven daven daven. Davening is way more important then anything”
let’s close them and every other worthy organization down and just daven….
we would save a lot of money that way wouldn’t we…..
correct: marriage is 1:1 yet older unmarried singles is way more girls than boys
care to explain…..
THAT’S THE CRISIS
TBT: Interesting thought. Sad that it’s not the accurate explanation. Please do the research and educate us as to girls vs. boys in the chassidishe community and where those girls go to school and who they marry. If they go to the litvishe yeshivos they should be suffeting the same fate as the litvishe girls…. and yet they don’t, very very interesting….
here’s a hint… by chassidim, boys and girls begin dating at around the same age…. 18/19.February 23, 2011 10:52 pm at 10:52 pm #744692
If there are twenty girls and ten boys in a group, and all the boys get married to the girls in that group, there are still ten girls who did not get married. If there are ten boys in that group and five of them are wasting time and taking their sweet time about “getting back to the girl,” so only five of them get married, there are 15 girls in that group not getting married.If there are 20 girls and twenty boys in a group who cannot make up their minds because they are unrealistically holding out for a “better shidduch,” which may or may not come their way, most likely none of them is getting married. Now we have a really big shidduch crisis.February 23, 2011 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #744693
thats not true a 23 yr old doesnt have to marry a 35 yr old ur really wrong
I think you misunderstood my point. I am not recommending such a shidduch, I’m saying that despite the fact that there might technically be the same number of males and females, there are more females who are of age to get married, so there is a very real shidduch “crisis” (although panicking is not helpful).February 23, 2011 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #744694
If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that the numbers issue (more girls than boys) is a big enough problem, and boys being finicky and not getting married exacerbates the problem. I agree totally.February 24, 2011 12:07 am at 12:07 am #744695TumsMember
DY, The problem with there being more girls in shidduchim than guys, is not that girls start dating and marrying earlier than guys (even though that is the case), but the problem rather is that when they do get married the guys marry younger girls than themselves thus “leaving over” the older girls (who are there own age).February 24, 2011 12:28 am at 12:28 am #744696
Did I imply that I thought otherwise?February 24, 2011 1:30 am at 1:30 am #744697
Is that the whole story and does it negate all other data? No, not at all. But it may explain the opposite effect by them, which you termed ” a slight boy crisis”.February 24, 2011 2:36 am at 2:36 am #744698
If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that the numbers issue (more girls than boys) is a big enough problem, and boys being finicky and not getting married exacerbates the problem. I agree totally”
Yep, mostly. I also was putting a bit of the responsibility on the twenty girls who are (like the twenty boys), are holding out for what they believe will be a better shidduch down the road. Unrealistic expectations have quashed many a solid-seeming shidduch.February 24, 2011 2:55 am at 2:55 am #744699
if the girls start at 19 and the guys at 23 why are the girls still around at 23 to have that probelm of
“guys marry younger girls than themselves thus “leaving over” the older girls (who are there own age”
shouldn’t the girls have been married in the first two three years of dating just like the boys are and thus we shouldn’t have so many girls who reach the same age as the boys….????
The answer is that from day one of their dating carrert the girls far out number the boys (because the girls start younger) and thus inevitable there will always be girls who will NOT get married in the first 3/4 years and thus end up “the same age as the boys”.
If there are twenty girls and ten boys in a group, and all the boys get married to the girls in that group, there are still ten girls who did not get married.-
correct and this is the shidduh crisis exactly. Now to solve it we need to understand and address why there are 20 girls and only 10 guys in the group.
If there are ten boys in that group and five of them are wasting time and taking their sweet time about “getting back to the girl,” so only five of them get married, there are 15 girls in that group not getting married. –
and there should be 5 guys still single? yet we don’t see that in the proportions you are suggesting (505 of the boys).
If there are 20 girls and twenty boys in a group who cannot make up their minds because they are unrealistically holding out for a “better shidduch,” which may or may not come their way, most likely none of them is getting married. Now we have a really big shidduch crisis. –
except that you picture is not accurate becasue the vast vast majority of boys DO get married and they actually get married quickly…February 24, 2011 5:26 am at 5:26 am #744700
They don’t start out with a “vast” difference, only about 10-12% (about 3% increase in population each successive, younger “grade” is the number I’ve heard).
Since most boys get married, and rather quickly, as you say, the ratio of girls to boys increases as more people from that age group get married.
For example, if there were 100 boys starting in shidduchim and 90 girls, and within two years, 90 boys got married, that would leave 10 single boys and 20 single girls, a much higher ratio than it started with. The numbers are actually much bigger than that, and that’s just from one year’s sample.
The result is that despite the fact that most boys get married quickly, there are, unfortunately, plenty of older single boys, and by this time, a vastly larger number of girls.
Among these older singles, many have difficulty getting married, some because of the fact that they are burnt out, and some for inherent reasons, which is why they became older singles in the first place. Whatever the reason, any boy who doesn’t get married exacerbates the problem, as Oomis said.February 24, 2011 5:47 am at 5:47 am #744701cshapiroMember
sometimes i meet singles, younger and older who are so depressed about their social status. i think its crucial to be happy and comfortable with who you are before you bring someone else into it….i had a bf for a while and i was so happy and content, but at the end of the day i didnt like who i was becoming as a person…bh hashem took me out of that situation before it was too late..and ive grown and learned so so much. looking back i cant believe i was ever that way but people get so comfortable with their life they forget that hashems really the one calling the shots…its not a shidduch crisis guys, hashem knows what hes doing dontchya think, hes been running this place for the past 5771 years?!!?!February 24, 2011 12:46 pm at 12:46 pm #744702
DY- 10-12% IS a HUMONGOUS difference. That is the problem. that 10% of girls are stuck from day one.
meaning for every 100 boys starting to date there are 110 girls. Year one it’s not so prononced. However, when 95 of those boys are married to 95 of those girls (theoritically) and 15 girls are left over, it becomes 15 to 5, but it is the same 10 girls (1 out of 10 )that were there from day one.
In any event i think we are not disagreeing… and the solution revolves aroudn closing the age gap in the early dating years.
Cshapiro: Hashem didn’t cause this problem. HE simply allowed us to mess up (as he is wont to do). Please don’t blame HIM for what we humans have wrecked. Instead lets get to work on solving it.February 24, 2011 1:33 pm at 1:33 pm #744703
AZ, so what it effectively boils down to in your estimation, is that every guy who married a girl 3 or more years younger than himself, is a perpertrator of this crisis and the cause of other girls being unable to ever marry.February 24, 2011 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #744704
Canine: In case you have failed to notice i have NEVER once pointed fingers at who is at fault, I have simply stated the obvious that the ages at which the boys and girls begin dating has created this monster.
I prefer to focus on solutions instead of assigning blame. I find it more productive.February 24, 2011 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #744705
Nevertheless, even without so stating, what I said above is the implicit blame that your points makes. Even if it remains unstated.February 24, 2011 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #744706
In any event i think we are not disagreeing… and the solution revolves aroudn closing the age gap in the early dating years.
I agree, and of course even 1% would be too large a difference, and even one Jewish girl unable to marry is a tragedy; I just (incorrectly) thought that you were downplaying how much the ratio drastically increases as a particular age group grows older.February 24, 2011 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #744707
Canine: absolutely incorrect. Never have never will. Each and every boy is free to marry whomever he thinks will make the best wife for him, and he the best husband for her. Please don’t put words in my emails. And i’d be glad to discuss solutions instead of trying to asses balme.
DY- the point you make is the devastating factor. When it’s 100 boys and 110 girls it’s one thing.. when it’s 2 boys and 12 girls it’s tragic….February 24, 2011 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #744708
AZ, just to get this straight – The numbers I used were for discussion purposes only. They were written arbitrarily. I have NO idea what the real numbers are remotely like. But I still see more girls than guys who are not dating, much less marrying.
The guys I see in their thirties who are not married, are not married for a reason, whatever that reason is (poor social skills, too picky, mama’s boys, arrogant, very overweight and have poor hygiene, etc.) The girls might also to some extent have similar issues, but we see sweet, fine, pretty, slim girls who are not married, because there are simply not enough guys to go around who do not come with their own issues. The girls have to wait for the boy to say yes to a shidduch, and then for the shidduch to follow through. If the boy is not saying yes to any suggestion, then both he AND the girl are not meeting each other. In the shidduch world, it is more often the girl who is waiting, not the boy, though I grant there are exceptions.February 24, 2011 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #744709emanParticipant
Part of the problem is that for a boy to be a “good boy” he has to be in yeshiva(whether he is cut out to learn or not). For a girl to be a “good girl” she has to dress properly and act properly. It is probably easier to be a “good girl” than a “good boy”.
The solution is to create programs for boys who are not full time learners and then the girls will be willing to go out with them. I realize that for a Talmid Chochom to learn with 20 something working boys does not generate the kovod that a Rosh Yeshiva gets.February 24, 2011 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #744710harosParticipant
yes, there is a shidduch crisis. just not the way that most people see it…you see…im a guy, of age, in yeshiva, have a lot going for me, and im not bombarded with suggestions. i have different people looking out for me, but yet the system in how they find me seems flawed. how do they know im interested? that im ready to look? why arent they setting me up? i think this happens to a lot of guys. simple lack of communication.February 24, 2011 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #744712tzippiMember
AZ, I’m heartened to hear that you’re willing to discuss the solutions. Does that mean we get details or just teasers?February 24, 2011 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #744713
What are you basing your “information” on. Conjecture?
Its nice to psychoanalyze other people, specifically Roshei Yeshivos and then criticize them based upon your “ingenious” psychoanalysis.February 24, 2011 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #744714
oomis: correct. so how do we even out the numbers.
Eman/mike: who are the “not good” boys marrying? Your analysis is irrelevant to the question of why we have so many older single girls and so few older single boys.
haros: i feel your pain. Unfourtanetly your presentation of the situation is not the standard- i wish it where…There are plenty of people out there who would have plenty of quality suggestions for you. The average shadchan is dying to get their hands on a quality boy.
Tzippi: The program are in place in doing amazing. Feel free to read your earlier posts and review. The most recent city to launch has been doing it for 5 weeks. The results 38 new dates set up almost every one is a under the radar girls and they have one engagment already.February 24, 2011 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #744716
Eman/mike: who are the “not good” boys marrying?
Often, no one, which is why it is relevant to the “shidduch crises”.
Your analysis is irrelevant to the question of why we have so many older single girls and so few older single boys.
That’s true. But if some of those “few” older single boys (and there are still plenty of them, just not in proportion to the girls) would get married, an equal number of girls would get married as well.
As far as a solution, that’s the point of the NASI project.February 24, 2011 10:52 pm at 10:52 pm #744717
1. slightly relevant because the boys are almost ALL married. true for every single boy that means there is a additonal single girls.
2. NASI Project…. BINGO……February 24, 2011 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #744718
I knew you were going there.February 24, 2011 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #744719
AZ, when did the age gap issue first develop as a problem in the frum communities shidduchim?February 25, 2011 1:34 am at 1:34 am #744720OfcourseMember
AZ, I dont think haros is all that unique. While the Shidduch crisis definitely hits girls harder, I really think we are suffering from a SHADCHAN-LESS CRISIS!
S’iz nisht du mit vamen tzu redden! You cant get a single publication to print a regularly updated list of Shadchanim. Only Hashem knows why. Most Shadchanim suffer burn-out after a year or two, after expending huge effort with little or no results, and less and less people want to get involved.
READ MY LIPS-
SHADCHAN-LESS CRISIS!February 25, 2011 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #744721
1. The boys by large don’t seem to suffer from the problem of there not being enough shadchanim.
2. The lack of shadchanim or reguler peopel who spend the time to set up shidduchim for the exact reasons you mention, is being directly addresses as discussed in preious theads. The results have been astounding so far and in due time it will be rolled across the country.
3. To be clear- adding 1,000 shadchanim will only help the crisis if they focus on slightly older girls = close in age shidduchim. that is exactly what is being put into play.
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