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its clear that we have to figure out some way to bridge the gap between all different sects of frum judaism. it seems all we do is put them all down , lets get some suggestions! we need to
Get Mishpacha magazine – they cover many different Orthodox groups, and it’s their stated mission.
Also, expose your kids to rabbonim not affiliated with your group. Ie if you’re chabad, to litvish. If you’re yeshivish, to chassidish. If you’re chassidish, to litvish, and make it clear that there are many different ways to serve Hashem.
You never know if it will be your child who will benefit, who will need to know that there are different ways of serving Hashem and they can be a good Jew even if they are not exactly like you.
hey paschabchochma don’t us sefardim get to be in your post too???
Oh SMS – I’m so sorry!!!
EVERYONE who is not sephardi should go to Sephardic Chachamim and Rabbanits – they give the most beautiful, warm and flowing brachos you will ever get anywhere.
Its the same old “holier than thou” attitude and the “judgmental” attitude that Yiddin seem to have. Instead of understanding our obligation of “v’ahavta l’reiacha k’mocha” we are always busy with what’s right about us and wrong about the next guy. We lack the common aspects of respect and therefore feel it is OK to knock our fellow Jew.
So I suggest we practice RESPECT on a more global level and not letting all our thoughts escape our tongue or our keyboards. Take two deep breaths before speaking or typing your thoughts and think “how will what I am thinking be heard or accepted by the other person?”
Also without having to go to each other’s Rebbeim just keep in mind how your respective Rebbeim would greet each other or speak to each other. Would they speak to each other or even think about each other the way you do? And “Da l’fnei Mi Atah Omed!” each time you say something rotten or do something not nice remember that you are standing before Hashem and think about putting another weight literally on the aveirah scale because Hashem sees everything and knows everything we think and do and WE are judged for each item.
That was very judgmental of you aries2756 – to accuse your fellow yidden of being judgmental. Why did you let that escape your keyboard, to let everyone know what you feel is wrong with other yidden and knock the next guy?
When I was in high school, they took us on a Jewish tour in the NY area. We went to New Square, Williamsburg, BP, Flatbush and the Lower East Side. It was a really nice experience.
I can pretty much say respect between all sects won’t happen. This is because everyone views anyone to their left as “not so frum” and anyone to the right as “uber-machmir.”
But to make it easier lets put it this way – can Yeshivish people respect the MO viewpoints and rabbonim? Some yes, many no. [that goes both ways]
I think the only way it can truly be done is by EACH person making a conscious effort to be more open minded and more accepting. There arent going to be any symposiums about it or any speeches by Roshei Yeshiva, it has to start with every individual.
“But to make it easier lets put it this way – can Yeshivish people respect the MO viewpoints and rabbonim? Some yes, many no. [that goes both ways”
I’m actually going to go for honesty here.
What do you mean by modern orthodox? Do you mean ‘dati leumi’, that is stringent adherence to halacha incorporating religious zionism? Then yes, the ‘Yeshivish’ or say Charedi community ultimately has a single disagreement with them – the place of Eretz Yisrael in our day and age. The rest – the flowing skirts, the headcoverings (heck! no shaitels! kol hakavod!) , the different dress, yada yada – that’s all societal. Then, when a real viewpoint comes up them, it should be respected. heck, most ‘yeshivish’ people eat OU – in which case you are relying on the Rav Herschel Shachter (him and Rav Belsky are the OU’s go to people). So I hope the yeshivish world respects his psakim. He is a master in all Chederey Torah (and does not say Hallel on Yom HaAtzamaut, see B’Ikevy HaTzaon, Siman Lamed Ches – I think).
Do you mean MO which slowly but surely seems to start looking like conservative – aka open mingling of the genders, mixed swimming, a breakdown of all of traditional halacha – then we have a problem. We have a fundamental disagreement. I see two schools of MO – and this is just my own prejudice and limited knowledge – one represented by R’ Herschel Shachter, and the RCA chevra. And one represented by Avi Weiss. R’ Herschel Shachter and the RCA Beis Din? Don’t agree with them on everything. But we share a common ground, like we do with Chassidim & Sfardim – different approaches, a single Halacha.
Avi Weiss? I have no common ground. YU’s ‘forums’ and dorms for mischavey zachar? No common ground.
And one must separate R’ Herschel – and the other YU magidey Shiur from YU itself.
I recall a friend who was leaving YU. R’ Herschel asked him why. He said – ‘Rebbe told me that going to this class was an issur dorayasah (an art class which featured – well , the inappropriate) – but the Administration didn’t listen to you. I am going to listen to you. It’s time to go’. And leave he did.
In other words, I don’t consider them to a branch of orthodoxy. Dati LeUmi etc. – certainly. And then respect is prerequisite.
And I believe that goes both ways. If I am – well – a caveman, I don’t suppose I am respected either. But if I am a Halachic standpoint which is too stringent – then I suppose there is mutual respect.
Do we speak of those funny orange turbans things? Respect. Uncovered hair? Nope.
SJS,
Great thread! I’ve learned with chasidic litvik charedi rabbis even though I’m MO and it is very valuable. I think our leaders could set the example. Rabbi Matisyahu Solomon has already been to Teaneck, and Rabbi Shlomo Amar visited YU. Can Rabbi Hershel Schachter speak in Lakewood? Can Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein speak in Bnei Brak?
Rav Soloveitchik z’tz’l had great relationships with Rav Kotler z’tz’l and the Lubavicher Rebbe z’tz’l. That there don’t appear to be such relationships across the divide today may be an example of yeridot hadorot.
Moq,
I think you have a major misconception. Are there MO people who do things wrong? Yes, absolutely. But none of that is sanctioned by Modern Orthodoxy. [With the exception of Rabbi Avi Weiss who skirts the line, although I am not well versed enough in halacha to know if he really crosses over or if he has solid backing in halacha and just grates against other rabbonim]
Right Wing Orthodoxy also has its well known aveiros Does that mean any of those things are right wing orthdoxy? I don’t assume that.
I do have a lot of respect for charedi rabbonim even if I don’t follow them.
And Moq, do you respect Rabbi Moshe Dovid Tendler? He is a real gadol baTorah but controversial.
EDITED
Right Wing Orthodoxy also has its well known aveiros (they are more likely to hide molesters, cheat on taxes, pull lots of money shtick, and speak a ton of lashon hara compared to the MO groups I’ve seen)
That is all sheker, SJS. Molesters, need I remind you of the well known MO molester who was allowed in his high position at a major MO org for decades? And then when they came forward, their internal beis din backed him up against the girls? Taxes? Need I list all the MO who were in the news for financial crimes? Loshan hora? Another aveira – like the others you brought up – that MO are much bigger on than non-MO frum.
so right as always so right
SJS
You forgot to look at the thread title before you posted your divisive (wrong) comments.
we are trying to find ways & reasons to get along, your libelous post, won’t help at all!
“Moq,
I think you have a major misconception. Are there MO people who do things wrong? Yes, absolutely. But none of that is sanctioned by Modern Orthodoxy. [With the exception of Rabbi Avi Weiss who skirts the line, although I am not well versed enough in halacha to know if he really crosses over or if he has solid backing in halacha and just grates against other rabbonim]
Right Wing Orthodoxy also has its well known aveiros (they are more likely to hide molesters, cheat on taxes, pull lots of money shtick, and speak a ton of lashon hara compared to the MO groups I’ve seen). Does that mean any of those things are right wing orthdoxy? I don’t assume that.
I do have a lot of respect for charedi rabbonim even if I don’t follow them.
And Moq, do you respect Rabbi Moshe Dovid Tendler? He is a real gadol baTorah but controversial.”
SJS-
Of course each community has it’s closet. But the question here is not which community has the most chatoaim. And that will quickly lead this thread into hysteria only matching a thread about tzinius. And I think we should leave specific individuals out as well; I meant only to illustrate with extreme examples.
The question is ideology. Are there molesters in the frum world (though certainly not exclusive to the frum world, but I mean in example only)? Yes. Was there a symposium about them? A forum about there experiences? A dorm that permits them to live together? Modern Orthodoxy ideology – of a certain stream – accepts this into their ideology. In other world, they subscribe to western pluralistic values first, and only then Halacha.
I believe there are two streams in the MO community, as I described.
Has Lakewood ever had a forum about avrechim’s ‘experiences’ about cheating on taxes? Sure, there is what to fix – but it is not condoned. Surely the Charedi has much to improve. But their flaws are not part of their ideology.
The Jerusalem Post if you will –
“
I’m sure you will agree that this is a mockery of Halacha.
Imagine a yeshivish declaration like this about child molesters.
Now, I certainly believe R’ Herschel Shacher, R’ Yonasan Saks (of YU), R’ Willig, , or R’ Avraham Shapira ztl etc. etc. would never sign such stupidity – and condemned the forum in YU. Alas, they are not the policy makers there. Nor would R’ Aharon Lichtenstien.
They are real Talmidey Chachamim. I believe they have erred. But that’s what Halacha is about. When they speak – I may not adhere – but I will think about their viewpoint, question their reasoning, and try to figure out the truth.
I believe Riskin & Weiss are idiots. When they start babbling, I yawn. I know nothing worthwhile from a halachic framework will come forth. (I don’t want to get into specific names negatively. I’m picking on these two because YWN has been reporting their antics for a while now).
I am not speaking of behaviors, I am speaking of principles.
So again, I believe there two streams.
One is pseduo conservative.
One is more lenient and wears funny headscarves.
Another request to all that we NOT descend into hysteria. Please. Pretty please? It’s not like we’re talking about skirts. Or sleeves. Or shells…
CAN WE NOT TALK ABOUT MOLESTERS? Start a different threads.
I didn’t say its exclusive to right wing orthodoxy. But whereas a MO person is more likely so sin mixed swimming, I know right wing orthodox people who do as well.
Whereas a molester can stay hidden in MO society, RW society is MORE LIKELY to hide the molester. Its a lot worse to be a known victim in RW society than in MO society.
Neither society blasts that any of these sins are OK. They are just more accepted than others.
If a RW guy in shul is talking about his tax fraud, no one would bat an eyelash. If he was talking about his wife going mixed swimming, people would kick him out of shul. But its more likely opposite for MO society.
I think one way to get along is to realize that each community struggles with DIFFERENT things. Then maybe you can respect a MO person who goes mixed swimming.
I am not libelous. I am honest. I can look within and see the issues. Each community has their own. I don’t believe in burying my head in the sand.
Moq, I am glad you got my point about each community having their skeletons. Wasn’t there a Rav who came out saying it was ok to cheat on your taxes?
As to the statement of priniciples regarding homosexuality – I actually think its an important statement. It does NOT say homosexuality is ok. It says that a person of homosexual orientation should not be discriminated BASED ON HIS ORIENTATION. It says nothing of his actions.
A person should not be “outed” as a homosexual with the exception of a girl he is dating. A person should not be ostracized based on his orientation, if he does not act on it. If someone had a strong desire for cheeseburgers but didn’t eat them, would we say he isn’t keeping kosher? Homosexuals deserve to be treated as human beings. If they sin, we treat them as any sinners. But we should look within to see what kind of toeva we are doing (like business ethics).
IMO Rabbi Riskin is a great Rav. We will have to disagree there.
SJS, that statement said practicing gays should be welcomed and honored in schools and shuls!
And the so-called ills of chariedi society you attribute, are actually worse on all accounts via-a-vis the MO.
And did you miss Moq’s point the difference is the permissive ideology? NOT the individual sins – that are NOT condoned by anyone. NO rabbi said tax cheating is okay.
I was walking home with a friend on Motzai Yom Kippur and we heard a group of Hispanic boys/men coming up towards us. We quickly crossed the street, but were still nervous. What comforted us was the fact that two Jewish men were standing outside talking.
My sister was walking home from a friend’s house and it was dark outside. She was being bothered by a group of non-Jewish teenagers. But when she told us the story she said she saw a Jewish boy walking and felt safer.
That I think is how to help everyone get along. Instead of judging them because they are different from you think that if you were scared/nervous in a not such great place and you saw them would you feel comforted that they would help you.
And visa versa, if you saw this Jew in need of help (and I’m not talking financial or whatever. You are just walking by and see a problem) would you go help? Would it matter if he was wearing a streimal, black hat or baseball cap? I don’t think so.
And remember, Hitler yimach Sh’mo, didn’t care if you were Chasidish, Litvish, MO… and neither do any non-Jew, they just see us as Jews with no labels. We should also see everyone as Jews.
his “orientation”?!
no such Torah concept
a purely fictional invention of modern secular society as a sly pseudo-scientific manner to condone BEHAVIOR that is an abomination before Hashem and calls for the worst kind of death.
do some have this taivah more than others. absolutely. Hashem created different strengths of taivahs and middos and tachunas in everyone. should people behelped to resist this taivah? absolutely
but to live such a life is an ABOMINATION, HATED, and DESPISED by Hashem, our Creator, the Creator of the entire universe and everything within.
i accidentally posted this in a different thread
SJ responed with:
“Wrong thread Mod.
OK so call it taivah instead of orientation. “
i responded with:
“big difference what you call it. orientation implies (to most people) acceptability, an equally valid alternative placed alongside normal “orientation”
sorry about the thread “
i responded with:
“big difference what you call it. orientation implies (to most people) acceptability, an equally valid alternative placed alongside normal “orientation”
Ben Torah, that isn’t what it says. In fact, one sentence that Moq didn’t quote is:
We do not here address what synagogues should do about accepting members who are openly practicing homosexuals and/or living with a same-sex partner.
It is only referencing those with the taivah who either keep it a hidden taiva (as most of us do) or those who say “Yes I have this taiva.” It is not talking about those who openly give in to that taiva. [Better Mod80?]
Yes, thank you SJ
by the way i know someone who bacame a baal Tshuvah.
he lived a life of rampant taivah (that we are talking about)
i dont know anything about the process of how he fought his Yaitzer
he is now is a Talmid Chacham, learns and teaches all day.
is married with a large family
charliehall – The Satmar Rebbe, Rav Aron, shlit”a, spoke at a very large BMG event in Lakewood. And – shortly afterwards – Rav Malkiel, shlit”a, spoke at a large siyum in Satmar (in Monroe, I think). This past Elul, the lakewood Tomchei Shabbos couldn’t get reduced priced chickens for their sale to Klai Kodesh (and even planned to cancel the whole sale bacause of that) & Rav Malkiel travelled to Monroe to speak to the Rebbe – who arranged KJ chickens for them at reduced pricing.
Rav Pinchos Lifshitz, Yated editor, a talmid of the Litvisher Yeshiva system, was the trailblazing askan in the Rubashkin saga. He went above & beyond to help & created a huge Achdus amongst Klal Yisroel. That’s a great example of bridging the gap!!!
aries2756:
“Its the same old “holier than thou” attitude and the “judgmental” attitude that Yiddin seem to have…”
Talking about judgmental…
Moq: Well said. We must differentiate between the Modern Orthodox and those who are Orthodox in name only. That said, anybody who bases their actions and hashkafos off Torah and Daas Torah deserves respect in my book.
SJSinNYC:
“we should look within to see what kind of toeva we are doing (like business ethics).”
Whoa. Cheating on taxes is definitely wrong, but it is no toeva. That title is granted to but a few aveiros by the Torah, and I don’t think sheker is one of them.
lkwdfellow: Excellent post. Too often we get so caught up in all that is wrong with “today’s generation” that we forget to take not of the many things we do right.
Financial dishonesty is called Toeva is the Torah:
Devarim 25:14-16
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????? ???????? ??????? ??????? ????? ?????? ???????? ??????? ??????? ????? ??????? ?????????? ??????? ??? ????????? ?????? ????????? ????????? ????? ????: ???? ???????? ????????? ????????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????
SJS, you don’t get stoned for financial dishonesty. You know, with bigs rocks till death. But that really isn’t the point of our conversation?
Who’s talking about stoning? My point is look within before railing against toeva because more people practice it than realize. People think “Oh cheating on your taxes is no big deal. Its a minor sin.” Um, the Torah doesn’t seem to think so.
I once learnt about the rationale behind the different punishments but I don’t remember it at all.
Sorry Grow Up. I thought the question was how can we get along “we” as in we the CR oilam.
You mean the outside world? No clue, but step one is get them to become CR members. Nothing teaches how to get along with others better than that a scathing retort from members, or worse the dreaded EDITED from a mod.
(and believe me, I’m a model student!)
it is really telling that when the trait of “being judgmental” is brought into the forefront the best anyone can do is “right back at you” accusing me of being judgmental because I mention it as a trait that needs to be worked on and be reigned in.
Well if you want to label me “JUDGE” for harping on the fact that I don’t appreciate when Jews keep judging their fellow JEWS unfavorably and talking about their faults in public forums, or gossiping about them among their friends then go ahead. Talk about me and what I am saying because the faster this “sinas chinam” stops the faster Ahavas Yisroel will take over.
aries – what you said works both ways. your judging those who in your opinion are what you consider “too judgmental”, is no less judgmental on your part of them. your complaint can be said on any topic, i.e.:
it is really telling that when the trait of “pritzus” is brought into the forefront the best anyone can do is yell “shut up” because one mention it as a trait that needs to be worked on and be reigned in.
Well if you want to label me “JUDGE” for harping on the fact that I don’t appreciate when Jews dress inappropriately then go ahead. Talk about me and what I am saying because the faster this “pritzus” stops the faster tznius will take over.
Sorry, meant to write “we forget to take note of the many things we do right.”
SJSinNYC: That’s talking about stealing, and not paying taxes isn’t stealing (WAIT there’s more coming nobody go into hysteria).
According to halacha, one absolutely may not steal from goyim. However, the only reason one has to pay up a debt to a goy is chillul Hashem: if the goy would forget about the loan, you would not be muchuyav to pay it back (it may be kiddush Hashem and a good idea, but it’s not a chiyuv). And not paying taxes falls into the category of not paying a debt, not stealing (after all, it’s my money that I’m keeping, not theirs). It’s still chillul Hashem, sheker,and assur, but it’s not halachicly stealing.
BP Totty: Totally agree. I have become far more tolerant of people with different opinions/hashkafos (since joining the CR.
aries2756: It’s not so much what you said as much as it as how you said it. You could have said “I think one of the main problems is when people judge too quickly” instead of “Its the same old “holier than thou” attitude and the “judgmental” attitude that Yiddin seem to have. Instead of understanding our obligation of “v’ahavta l’reiacha k’mocha” we are always busy with what’s right about us and wrong about the next guy. We lack the common aspects of respect and therefore feel it is OK to knock our fellow Jew.” Saying an attitude is wrong is fine: saying people with this attitude are wrong is already borderline. Talk about the issues, not the people.
I believe a strong campaign against Toeva and Toeva lifestyles is in order. If you live a Toevah lifestyle it is almost inevitable that actual Toeva will occur. If you live beyond your means somewhere down the line you will be forced into stealing.
A strong anti – Toevah campaign will restore our reputation for the highest integrity in financial matters.
With this restoration, presently non observant Jews will be impressed and will want to become Shabbos observant.
mw, I stand corrected, you said it much better than I. I appreciate your input and your eloquence. I guess I am just so drained I have lost my patience. Thank you.
mw13, when you don’t pay taxes, you are also stealing from Jews. Are there not Jewish taxpayers? You are also stealing by using services provided by your tax money and not paying for them.
Honestly, its this thought process that is DESTROYING our generation. Theft is ok huh? Theft is theft. For every dollar in taxes you aren’t paying, you are stealing a % of that money from millions and millions of people, many of whom are frum.
And forget about actual taxes – many Jewish business owners LITERALLY steal from their customers (this is especially true in construction).
I’m not saying this is a good thing or that its halachically allowed. I’m pointing out that people rail so hard against one toeva but neglect another. Because one seems so foriegn to them (homosexuality) and the other is “not so bad.” Vomit.
SJS, you’re halachic disagreement whether it is stealing or not, is just that. A disagreement whether it is or is not considered stealing underthe eyes of halacha. Honestly, mw13 is more compelling. But either way, NO ONE condones stealing — assuming something is stealing.
AND even IF it IS stealing, stealing’s halachic recourse is repayment of double (or sometimes more) of the stolen amount. Toeiva (homosexuality) is a capital offense that carries a death sentence. (Even for non-Jews under halacha.) Incomparable. That is far worse any way you look at it. So yes, the latter is very much worth railing so hard against, even more so than the original.
Lets assume its stealing.
The Torah calls it TOEVA. How can you contradict the Torah? Word for word. It’s not even a d’rabbanan statement where someone can say “Oh but (insert great Rav here) says something different.”
Your post is sort of my point. People dismiss this kind of Toeva because it doesn’t fit into their pre-concieved notions of what the Torah calls Toeva. Because Toeva is ONLY about homosexuality right?
Uh, wrong. The Torah calls improper business ethics TOEVA. Please find me a Rav who says this is NOT toeva.
No one is contradicting the Torah. IF it is stealing, it is WRONG. According to me, you, everyone here, and everyone else.
And it is called toeva. But you don’t get stoned to death for stealing. You get stoned to death for homosexuality. A tad worse than a financial fine I’m sure you’ll agree. So one is far worse than the other. Again, stealing’s punishment is a financial penalty. Homosexuality’s punishment is DEATH.
Myfriend, stealing is much more rampant in the Jewish community than open homosexuality. Why would people be on such a rampage about homosexuality (especially those who live a celibate life which is fine) rather than rage about business ethics?
And I’m not sure one is “worse” than the other. The PUNISHMENT is worse, but likely because you can repay it in some monetary way, but you can’t undo homsexual relations.
A) “People” aren’t on a “rampage” about homosexuality.
B) Stealing ins’t “rampant” in the Jewish community.
C) If you have trouble differentiating what is worse between a CAPITAL OFFENSE and one carrying a FINE, this discussion is pointless.
People are on much more of a rampage about homosexuality than business ethics. Many people railed against the statement of “if a man tells you he is a homsexual and doesn’t openly practice (meaning you can assume he doesn’t), then treat him like a human being!”
Unfortunately, putting your head in the sand will not change the fact that many Jews (at least a larger percent than those who are homosexual) have problems with business ethics.
And I am looking at two aveiros called Toeva in the Torah. Can you tell me where to find the list of aveiros that are better than others? I mean, lashon hara isn’t a capital crime so I can do that right? And tznius isn’t even listed directly in the Torah, so clearly that’s fair game. Right?
Maybe instead of all the energy put into tznius campaigns we should be putting them into toeva campaigns? You know, business ethics.
Jews, especially frum ones, have FAR FAR better and more honest business and financial ethics than society. It is in fact highly commendable, exceptional incidents notwithstanding. (I know, I know, you’re gonna list every exceptional incident as if it is the rule, when it is FAR from it.)
myfriend, unfortunately, I don’t think so. I know many people (frum Jews, non frum Jews and non Jews) who won’t do business with frum people after having been burnt one too many times.
I wish we could say we are more honest and ethical in finances than society. But I don’t think that is true.
SJS, What!? Are you kidding? You are using these racist pigs who refuse to do business with religious Jews as your faulty proof?! I’m shocked you would stoop to using such blatant racists.
I’m sure if these people would refuse to do business with black people you would be the first to condemn them as racists, and surely not use such blatant racist pigs as an example.
myfriend, if someone was constantly burnt by black businesses, I would understand looking for business elsewhere. Not everything is racism or antisemitism.
I am not talking about 1-2 people. I know a LOT of people who feel this way. Enough that I think people should wage war on this toeva.
I myself hesitate to do business with small businesses in general (mainly because of poor return policies).
“if someone was constantly burnt by blacks” and put a sign on their shop “No Business with Blacks at this Establishment” I think YOU’d be the first to condemn them — regardless of the circumstances that led to that policy.
Either way, refusing to do business with blacks or religious Jews is a blatant violation of the anti-discrimination laws in all 50 states. I’m shocked you — who constantly are preaching rule of secular law here and dina d’malchusa — would not only tolerate it against YOUR OWN BRETHREN — but would use such racist pigs as an example.
myfriend, as a consumer I have the right to discriminate when purchasing items. I can choose where and when to use my money. And I often choose to shop at large department stores over small businesses because they offer better return policies.
What is discrimination is not hiring someone based on their race/nationality/gender. Or not allowing them the same seat on the bus. Or putting up signs that say “No blacks or Jews allowed.” We aren’t talking about the same thing.
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