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I heard the following statement from someone at Kiddush on Shabbos, and I want to know whether it is or is not loshon hara, and why or why not:
“Any Jew who voted for Barack Obama is an idiot.”
I would say not because it is a general statement and not directed at any one person. It is though not very nice to call any group of people idiots although I agree Obama has not been a friend to Israel or the Jewish people.
What would the other have been like?
To elaborate on the Goq’s point, if he would have said, “Reuven is an idiot because he voted for Obama,” that would be Lashon Hara.
Incidentally, although I personally voted for McCain and for Romney, I think that anyone who would say this is an idiot. This subject has been discussed ad nauseum in various other threads.
nfgo3 – In that case, it would depend on whether the other people listening were aware that you had voted for Barack Obama. Assuming that they were, then it would definitely be considered Lashon Hara. If not, I do not believe that it is Lashon Hara, although it is most certainly Ona’as Devarim in any case (unless, of course, the speaker himself did not know how you voted).
Catch, it would be Lashon Hara even if you only say, Reuven voted for Barack Obama.
I suppose by that logic that Reuven would consider it Lashon Hara to say, “Shimon voted for John McCain.”
Truth is, it would only be ??? ???? ???.
[Disclaimer: If you are just trolling, I retract this post, as you do not deserve a response.]
It there’s loshon hora in the CR (see: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/lashon-hora-in-the-cr), and, as in the famous story of the Chofetz Chaim, it’s assur to say loshon hora about oneself, was it loshon hora for nfgo3 to post that he voted for Obama?
😉
You can’t retract a post.
I suppose by that logic that Reuven would consider it Lashon Hara to say, “Shimon voted for John McCain.”
Not quite. It’s not up to Reuven. The fact is that you are pointing out his being different than you and the Mekabel and making him appear weird to the crowd. If he yells about Shimon, that will only make himself sound odd.
Now to nfgo’s OP, I really don’t think calling the guy an idiot for having done something is the LH. If anything, he is arguing on that opinion. But still, the LH would be to announce that Reuven voted for BOH, especially to a crowd who can relate to ‘he’s such an idiot’ for having done so.
As to if I’m trolling, I can’t tell. That term went through many generations of definitions here in the CR (and was the basis of most CR LH). I lost track of all of them. You probably meant to ask if I’m kidding, but if you can’t tell you don’t deserve an answer.?
DY – As has been discussed before (I think in the thread about the story of Rav Moshe and the Chalav Stam), if anything, the incident with the Chofetz Chaim to which you referred indicates that it is Muttar to speak Lashon Hara about yourself, although it may not be a good idea. [Otherwise, the Chofetz Chaim wouldn’t have done it.]
HaLeiVi- I don’t think it’s Lashon Hara to point out that someone is different, unless the way in which he is different is of a sort that it would be Lashon Hara to point out, or if being different in and of itself is a negative quality. It’s clear that when the speaker called Reuven an idiot for voting for BHO, he was highlighting what he considered to be Reuven’s poor choice of candidate (and what that choice says about Reuven). Presumably, the feeling is mutual; Reuven considers the other candidates poor choices, and he thinks that voting for them is telling about the voter.
Would it be Lashon Hara for Reuven to say (even in such a crowd as you described), “Shimon is such an idiot – he voted for Mitt Romney!”?
If the only Lashon Hara aspect is the crowd, I think it’s only ??? ???? ???.
As far as the trolling question, I meant: “Are you deliberately saying something to get me [a fellow poster] upset?” (which is what I always thought trolling meant), as opposed to just kidding. If you were trolling, there’s no point in responding; trolls are by definition not concerned with ????? ?????, so why would they care about Lashon Hara?
If you were just kidding, it nevertheless provides an opportunity to point out that the added phrase, “is an idiot” changes it from ??? to full fledged Lashon Hara.
CY, agreed. That post wasn’t meant to be taken seriously.
He is not adding any information by calling him an idiot. He is expressing his disdain to those who seemingly agree that it was a silly choice. Those words are his argument. If Reuven found a crowd who considered anyone who voted against Obama as bigoted or against history (or whatever the fad was at the time), and he informs them that Shimon did so, then I agree.
While I was kidding about the statement being LH in and of itself, the point remains. But pray tell me how that was supposed to get you upset. (I mean, actually it did. But how?)
Actually, it didn’t. If it had, I would not have responded.
It seemed as though you may have intended to provoke me, since I have [in this thread, as well as in several others] been quite vocal about the impropriety of how too many people in our community speak about the current president.
I didn’t really think this was the case; the disclaimer was just to hedge my bets.
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